And we're out…

C Ronaldo scores twice, hits the post twice, misses chances and offers team mates chances.

Huntelaar gets first shot on goal in the 86th minute. And misses the target.

End of review…

But seriously… We were simply not good enough. We scored early. And we did get more chances in the second half. Vlaar’s header, Van Persie’s run into the box, Van der Vaart’s shot on the post. But that’s it.

Portugal got at least 10 open scoring opportunities. This game could have ended 8-4.

I hate to say it, but Portugal was simply better. They outplayed Germany before. Now they outplayed us. Their midfield bossed us in the first half, which is an almost obvious result of the line up we started with.

We just didn’t click. Van Persie played an invisible first half. Van der Wiel was atrocious, yet again. Vlaar couldn’t keep up with C Ronaldo if Wiel lost him. We were simply not good enough.

Skipper Van der Vaart: “We didn’t play well enough. We lost three times. Then it’s clear where you stand. We started this game ok, but after our goal we slipped away and they got stronger. We didn’t deserve it.”

In this game it became painfully clear why Van Marwijk insisted on playing with two holding midfielders. The Oranje defense is shockingly weak.

In the first half, Sneijder was supposed to play on the left flank but he was hardly engaged, while Van Persie was simply not able to be important. Robben had his moments and in an offensive way, Van der Wiel did ok. Even had one good cross.

In the second half, Sneijder played more centrally and Van Persie took the flank but it didn’t make much of a difference. Every time Portugal took over, they looked like they could score.

Bert van Marwijk: “This was highly disappointing. I failed. And with me, the group. It’s too early to talk about my future, so quickly after the game. We’ll do that later. But I believe we had trouble overcoming the first dip against Denmark. We constantly started well but somehow insecurity came into the game. And we missed crucial chances up front while giving away too much at the back.”

He continues: “The vibe in the group was great. We had a different dynamics then during the World Cup of course, but despite the losses everyone was positive. I had to deal with some players who were dissatisfied, but that’s not something I can concern myself with. I can only play eleven players so you’re bound to disappoint a number.”

Arjen Robben: “I have no explanation for this. We constantly start well. We play well for 20 minutes. In this game, we even scored! And still we let it slip. What is that? Intend? Physical strength? Focus? You tell me… But suddenly we make silly passes. We start to lose the ball and insecurity sets in. But we need to be straight: we lost as a group. In 2010, we did it as a group, and now we lost as one group. The players and the staff. Should Bert leave? That’s not for me to say. That is for him to determine, with the KNVB.”

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  1. Get Rikjaard and play 4-3-3..go back to the roots of attacking football..give those young talents a fucking chance and gel them into the system before the WC…
    Its 3:15 a.m in the morning and I still can’t believe what just happened

    1. The Dutch DO play attacking football–that’s just the problem! The back four aren’t very good, and neither, frankly, are the midfielders–Sneijder, Van der Vaart, de Jong van Persie (today). They are good in the attacking third but not effective otherwise. Sneijder and VDV and de jong have no pace. They don’t get back. Our midfield got killed after we scored the first goal. Every time Renaldo got the ball, we had no more than one or two people back. He had all kinds of space and could have easily scored four goals. Our forwards rarely had space–Portugal had six people back when Robben, say, had the ball. This was a problem.

      The Dutch team is unsettled right now. Need better players in the back. And van Persie playing with Hunter does not seem to work. It means moving van Persie out of position–he was lost most of the match. Too many problems. Affelay has to start because he has pace. The Dutch are too slow in transition, apparently–or certainly Portugal was better. Just a lot of question marks right now.

  2. My stepdaughter, who’s not into football at all and who’s 13 years old, watched the game with me for a couple a minutes and asked why is Netherlands playing so boring and without any passion?

    I think that about sums it up.

    Bye bye BvM. While you are on your way out, please also grab Mathjisen, Van der Wiel, Willems, Van Bommel, Van Persie, Robben and Afellay with you. Great, thanks.

  3. Changes have to be made. Douglas? Formation? Something. The defense has to be remade. van der wiel needs to leave Holland, he is not challenged… It would be a travesty if this generation does not get a trophy.

    Something needs to happen…

  4. Anyone else simply not fazed by this loss?

    When we scored I admit I went mental thinking nows our chance! But we like usual we let the game go after the 20minute mark.

    I give up on Oranje if BvM is the manager.

  5. Terrible. If they were going out,I hoped they would go in style. But this…This is probably the worst Dutch team that I ever saw! Not probably,definitely! They should be very very ashamed….Its the first time in my life that I just could not watch their whole game because they were too bad.
    It happened,and now it is time to turn our heads to the future. I hope with a new coach. What went wrong(besides everything)? What needs to be changed?

  6. I believe Van Marwjik did a tremendous job taking the team Marco Van Basten created and taking them to the 2010 finals. It is time for him to step down and to appoint another manager (Rijkaard? Cocu? De Boer?).
    He will have to build a brand new team with young players.

    Bring in Clasie, put Strooman on the field, and leave home Van Bommel, Van der Vaart, Kuyt, Mathijsen etc…

    We should try to qualify for the 2014 WK but the objective should be Euro 2016 in France

    1. Don’t even think about *not qualifying* for a World Cup. It’s simply out of the question.

      Does anyone know when are the next few friendlies before the World Cup qualifiers start in September?

      1. aug 15 is our first friendly against belgium then qualifier in sept; we will qualify with the same squad, diff manager minus VB (hurts to say that), Mathijsen, Willems (at least on the bench not starting). Robben and VDV did their thing tonight, Sneijders first bad game and he wasnt allowed to do what he wanted, I was very positive the whole time. Let’s play out the year and see what’s good we have a pretty easy qualifying group D, but at the state we just saw, meh, things have to change.

  7. So now does everybody understand why BVM plays with two defensive midfielders? Man did the best he could with the players he had. Wasn’t brave enough to play Strootman perhaps, but don’t think that would have changed much. Hunter would be great playing for Portugal or Germany, you know teams where the midfielders have some tactical intelligence.

    1. no, because he didn’t take the best defenders or try out other guys in the centerback spots, so no, he solves a problem that he created,

      nice try but no.

    2. Agree! This game showed CLEARLY why BVM played two holding midfielders. We are helpless otherwise! Our back four are not good–but neither are our midfielders outside of the attacking third. That is a problem.

  8. Its over for this generation. Bert playing three at the back was the nail being put in the coffin. Playing all out attack against Portugal is suicide. PERIOD. Everytime they have beat us it has been on the counter. Holland has to learn to play a more balanced game of football. We HAD no midfield in that game with everyone in attack. It was Suicide.

    For all the ding dongs clinging to the past and total football, it won’t work anymore, Holland has to go back to basics and learn to defend and boss the midfield and for the most part leave the goals to the strikers.

    I though Willems had a good tourney, he’s one for the future. The rest should retire, time for new blood. Bas Doost, Narsingh, Van Rijn and the likes – but it will take two tournaments for these guys to get it together.

  9. What do you guys think of this idea…

    Make Nigel de Jong captain moving forward.

    I can almost assume with 100% certainty that we will have a new coach moving forward.

    Some players will be gone from the team (kuyt bommel mathisjen)

    So why not give de jong the armband.

    He is 27, and has 6-8 years left at the top.

    He was our best player through all three games.

    You could make a case for sneijder, but too me, he has much too big of an ego.

    Since ego’s were the problem this tourney, why not give the armband to the most solid all-round player we have, who seems to not have an ego.


    1. Good point,but I would still give it to Sneijder. I feel he can bring up the team when they are down,and that is what captains should be able to do.

      1. Sneijder would be my second choice.

        I agree 100% that he does try to lift the team, and gives constant effort until the end, while many other players of ours have seemingly given up.

        However, what happens when sneijder starts to dip in form in a few years.

        I think de jong will have more years at the top than sneijder. He may be a better choice long term.

        Also, what happens if new creative midfielders challenge sneijder for his spot in a few years. We have many.

        I only really see strootman challenging de jong, but even strootman doesn’t play an only defensive game.

        Sneijder also gets all pissy-pants fairly often, and he could easily turn sour. Do we want our captain being a cry-baby if he is not allowed to take the free kicks?

        I think choosing a captain with no ego like de jong, who leads by solid play might be a good new direction to try out.

        1. I dont think De Jong is that much safer in his position than Sneijder in the future. He could even loose his position before the World Cup 2014 if a coach comes who wants to dominate through possession football,and who likes more skilled midfielders.
          Strootman,Clasie,Anita and Fer are waiting to grab that defensive midfield position after this Euro.
          De Jong is also having problems at club level. He doesnt play that much anymore,and City still buys players.
          We will see… Stekelenburg might also be an option.

          1. Ya I agree with you on the club level part. Yaya is so dominant in midfield that by the end of this year Mancini was using de jong as his first sub if he didn’t get the start.

            But I can see the same thing happening as vdv at madrid, if de jong doesn’t get the playing time, he can ask for a switch to another top club. Lots would love to have him.

    2. No don’t agree. I don’t agree the egos were the problem. I think Sneijder demonstrated leadership and openness in his interviews. More than anyone. De Jong is really quiet and doesn’t like interviews and media. Sorry. Bad idea.

  10. tonight i don’t blame the team. they tried it and portugal were simply better. the denmark game killed oranje and it was no way of going back. i blame bert because of the lack of chemistry. one more time the gap between the lines was immense. in the kind of football oranje were supposed to play tonight the distance between the most advanced man and the central defenders shouldn’t have been more than 30-40 meters. in these conditions the fluidity disappears. one more time the team didn’t press the opponent.
    we had a goood start,but after 1-0 portugal changed their approach,and unfortunately the our defense was unable to keep ronaldo quiet.
    i hope a new coach,maybe rijkaard will replace bert van marwijk. oranje will qualify for the world cup,i’m sure about it. in the meantime the defense has to be rebuilt,and oranje must return to the basics…
    very sad night,disappointing tournament. it reminds me the 1980 euros,but this time is even worse: the zero point and the fact that stekelenburg was our best player when oranje was supposed to attack and create say everything.

    1. The only player to blame in the Denmark game was Van Persie. How many shots does he need to score 1 goal? BvM is also to blame, not because of his strategies, but because of the late substitution.

  11. To turn our heads to the future and forget this disaster,I will name a few young players that I think should be considered,and have a high chance to be called into this team after Euros,for the next qualifications:

    Defence: De Vrij,Douglas,Van Rhijn(replacing Boula),Viergever,maybe Buttner till Pieters picks up his form. Bruma is out of form at the moment,so no for him.

    Midfield: Anita,Clasie,Maher,Fer,Wijnaldum. I am optimistic about the future of midfield,with Strootman, these are all great talents.

    Wingers:John,Boerrigter. I would call Elia later,when he finds his old form at a new club. As you can see,not many wingers,so Afellay and Robben need to stay.

    Forwards: Dost,Wolfswinkel.

        1. I wouldn’t say groningen and heerenveen are 2nd rate. Don’t forget heerenveen were challenging for first place up to the end of the season. They may make the jump this transfer window.

          1. Maybe for Gouweleeuw that is not the reason.Narsingh made it,and he is from the same club.
            I like him very much,but I just think he is not ready yet. Maybe after one more season.
            I know he will not be considered in front of De Vrij,Douglas,Viergever and even Bruma right now.

  12. It’s really painful .
    First time for Oranje to go from the group stage at least in my life time , and wait .. with 0 Points !!
    3 Consecutive losses . WTF !!
    those players should be ashamed !
    BvM should be ashamed .

  13. Argh.

    I don’t have the words. Utterly disappointing.

    Hope the rebuild goes well – it was a shame this generation didn’t earn a championship, but I think there’s some nice building blocks here for the future.

    Rebuild that defense – it has no confidence and looks scared!

    I think they all tried very hard, but they were outmanaged, outplayed, and unfortunately, it seemed like they many of them played without any passion.

    Hope 2014 goes much better!

  14. In the end, there just wasn’t enough talent on this team to move forward. The back line was left exposed and the experiment with van Persie playing in back of Huntelaar failed with neither player doing much at all. Other than the van der Vaart goal and post, very little creativity on offense. Lots of long balls played to nobody in particular which were never going to threaten the Portuguese defenders (who did a very good job of clogging up the passing lanes). Sneijder had his poorest game of the tournament which complicated things as well. I guess the team just couldn’t go 4-4-2 with the players they had and it might have made more sense to have moved van der Vaart up in the hole since he’s a little more creative when he has the ball.

    Player Ratings:

    Stekelenberg (7) – did everything asked of him making some great saves to keep the score close
    Willems (4) – just not good enough today in all facets of the game; gave the ball away too easily and poor positioning; in retrospect just too young for this level
    Mathijsen (6) – a couple of good clearances and gave his all despite the physical limitations of age
    Vlaar (6) – worked hard but is too slow for this level
    van der Wiel (5) – schizophrenic match some real bonehead plays followed by some good ones; transfer value has sunk as a result
    de Jong (6) – worked hard in the defensive midfield today and was on his own for most of the match
    van der Vaart (7) – out of position as noted above but the only one who seemed to get good shots off
    Sneijder (6) – poor match by his standards, forcing too many passes
    Robben (6) – worked hard all match but was never a threat to score
    van Persie (5) – really in the wrong position today (not his fault) and as a result couldn’t do much at all
    Huntelaar (5) – got no service at all and was a non factor
    Afellay (5) – again a poor match as a substitute; poor on the ball

    Whether or not BvM is retained and he certainly has to assume part of the blame here, there will be a rebuilding job ahead. It’s difficult to see more that 3-4 players from this current team remaining a factor in the qualifying up to the next WC. One hopes that there will be some announced retirements rather than carrying on after their skills are no longer with them.

    1. u rated mathijsen higher than willems?! were u watching the same game? I saw Gullits comment on some british show and he analyzed the second goal well, blaming mathijsen essentially for it

      1. yep pretty much agreeing with that and I thought Robben deserved more, because he actually passed the ball more and made some decent runs and found good space. RVP looked like he did not want to adapt to that position and as history goes one on one off, 2014 will be a lot better, a good amount of this generation is over but dont throw away Robben, VDV, even RVP (at times), but we must sort out our defense so our attackers dont have to run back so often or more importantly having players get out of position and leaving men and space open.

  15. Oranje U17 & U21 have been very successful in recent years. The future is bright. But let’s not over-react. We still have great players. Sneijder, RvP , Huntelaar, de Jong and Robben still have many caps left to win. I would like a new manager and a return to our traditions. The most galling thing of the last 2 years is our lost reputation. If we’re going to lose, let’s at least do it beautifully. The reason why there are so many non-Dutch oranje fans is because of total football.

    1. Good as in “up for the task” set out.

      My first conclusion however would be that the coach is not good enough. Has no creativity and imo has killed this team’s potential with a preferred ideal that doesn’t even come near the harsh reality. A good coach is able to inspire a team based on potentials and push them forward from there. There must have been as many holes in his approach as there were holes and vacancies on the field. A coach of any stature will draw his conclusions after such a fiasco.

      A magnificent era in the history of Dutch soccer has come to an end, actually did so already 2 years ago under the direction of the KNVB in their forced attempt to win a trophy.

      Good luck to future coaches and players in their bid to pick up the pieces.

      Hup Holland Hup

  16. We need D
    2 D like Stam.

    Willems is young, very young. He will get better

    We outplayed Denmark, Germany at times.
    The back 4 just were not up to it.
    Playing 3 of the worlds top 10, exposes alot.

  17. too bad it ended this way. but we could all see it coming the last few days. sad end for a generation. a generation of overachievers though. not very good technically but played with grit. something that has not happened since 1978.

    anyhow, time to rebuild. hopefully we will not do the mistakes of the past (too radical rebuilds).

    Mark’s absence from the center is just irreplaceable. So is Kuyt.

    Looks like BvM will go. The successor will have very tough job. After the first failure (will come shortly I assume) the complainers will start again.

    It is so difficult to rebuild a team that achieved a world cup final. This will sink in the next few months, hopefully we will not shoot ourselves in the foot *again*

  18. Really, really disappointed…

    The problems were two – as I see it –

    Our best forwards are no longer faster than the quickest and best defenders in the world….(long seasons and time is catching up to them)

    Our midfield is not quick enough – and for basically the same reasons…

    Because of these we were not able to pressure our opponents for more than a few moments and our inexperienced defence was left exposed too often.

    I don’t blame the coach, and I don’t blame the players – it is time to rebuild now and I fully expect that regardless of who is the coach – the WC2014 squad will look very different.

    Sad that this generation couldn’t win a big prize – this was really the last best chance for most of them.


    (Time to move on – bring on the young talents !)

    1. I believe that it is a very tough spot that we are in now.

      Some players are clearly done at this level.

      vbommel, kuyt, mathisjen.

      But which players will be dropped for new talent?

      That is why choosing the new coach will be most important.

      I really think Hiddink should have been given another shot managing this team. Too bad he is going to russia next year already.

      The new coach will have to decide who he will drop from the national program moving forward.

      As you can make a valid case for (keeping) and against (dropping) most of our current talent.

      vdv + would class touch, freekicks, & shooting
      – too slow, getting old

      vpersie + world’s best at club level
      – can’t match that at oranje level

      robben + true difference maker in games, our best player?
      – mentally weak, losing pace?

      huntelaar + true poacher, ideal striker
      – may get dropped for dost, luuk, or wolfswinkel

      heitinga + a good defender, mvp for everton
      – looked terrible this euro

      afellay + speedy talent playing at barcelona
      – runs around like a headless chicken, mesmerizing himself with useless step-overs

      I can’t wait to see who is appointed coach, and what direction he will take the team moving forward. Also, which players will not play again at this level.

      1. I hate to see comments saying Robben is mentally weak. That is bollocks. Anyone able to fight back from injuries like him is mentally very very strong!!

        1. i am not personally saying robben is mentally weak, i was merely pointing out how a new coach can look at each of those players either way, good or

          Essentially the new coach will drop some players from this team.

          Also Robben is my favorite player and i don’t think that he is mentally weak, but who knows de boer might, or hiddink may aswell….understand my point?

  19. Did you notice how scared our players got in the mid-field? I remember how they played in Hiddink’s time. It was literally impossible to take the ball from them. Short, quick, accurate passes, even when they were pressed they always found a way to deliver the ball forward and no one was afraid to go 1v1 with an opponent. This is all gone now thanks to the retarded 4-2-3-1 system that basically leaves out the whole midfield. It’s a question of strategy. I’ve got a feeling that BvM is not a very good tactician.

    1. A brief summary of Hiddink’s time as national coach.

      Doesn’t this sound familiar to the spot our team is in now…

      Hiddink would face his biggest managerial challenge when he took over the reins of the Dutch national team on 1 January 1995,[9] where he took charge of a team of talented individuals continually racked by internal arguments and disputes. His usual 4-4-2 tactic of deploying wingers backed-up by central midfielders resulted in goals from defensive midfielders such as Philip Cocu and Edgar Davids. Hiddink took a firm approach to the team, an example of which was demonstrated at Euro 1996 when Edgar Davids was sent home after an argument with Hiddink.[10][11] He was able to prevent further internal conflict in the 1998 FIFA World Cup[11] where his team played some of the more entertaining football in that tournament.[12] The team beat Argentina in the quarter finals 2–1, then suffered a defeat at the hands of Brazil on penalties in the semi-final. This loss signalled an end of another era for Hiddink, as he resigned as Dutch national coach soon after.

  20. Willems was dramatic. We played poorly 3 times. I often thought of Buttner and vRhijn, Urby… VMarwijk failed but this team was never a team, these players could not bring their talents out. Today was a disgrace. We scored the 1 0 and then we see the team collapse right away.

  21. I must conclude that I am a genius. I predicted this outcome 2 weeks ago after the Bulgaria friendly. Please read my posts in the old site. Make me the coach and I will win the World cup and the next Euro.

    Seriously, I am very sad today. What happened to our Oranje?

    1. Maybe you are just an evil wizard,and you put some kind of curse by predicting it,you just wasnt aware that was a curse.

      Seriously,I dont know.

  22. I do not think dismantling this team and rebuild from scratch is a good idea. Mathijsen, Van Bommel, Kuyt, Boula, Bouma, Vlaar and perhaps Heitinga should be left off the national squad for starting. I would consider De Jong and Strootman as central defenders if we do not have better option. Rebuild the defense, making the defense and midfields move up to support the forwards when attack (and midfields and forwards back to defense when losing the ball), playing like one unit. Bringing in Anita, Emmanuelson, Maher, Ola John, Classie and other younger potential players. Switch to play 4-3-3.

  23. I still think Sneijder, Van Der Vaart, Robben, Van Persie, Hunter, Afellay, Narsingh still deserve a place in national squad for WC14 qualification.

  24. I must admit I didn’t feel confident at all after I saw the pre-EC friendlies that Netherlands played. But I still wanted to believe and thought that Vikram was just a whiny little boy.

    I guess we owe him an apology. 🙁

  25. our first game in the qualifiers is against turkey in september… we cant shuffle much ! I say lets keep BVM for this one as there is no room for error

    1. exactly …. we are in deep sh**… there is a friendly with belgium in august but this is hardly any time left for adjustments…

      I am really concerned about WK2014 qualifications…

  26. @Hien, I think the players you mention of your 2 posts combined will make the new team…
    Van Der Vaart, Robben, Van Persie, Hunter, Afellay, Narsingh …. with:
    Anita, Emmanuelson, Maher, Ola John, Classie …

    I add van Rhijn, Gouweleeuw and : luuk de jong!, my hope is that he will develop in the next 2 years and knock van persie off the team for good!. Luuk has a wonderful technique and is a fantastic teamplayer, very good first touch n build up, and we alo have vwolfswinkel.

  27. I now firmly believe that those friendlies we played were telling us something. A lot of people here were so quick to ignore or dissmiss them as just friendlies.

    The most glaring truth is that we have one of the worst defenses in the tournament. Maybe the offense of this team was able to get results in the qualifiers that masked our defensive fragility. Once the offense wasn’t able to click, it was just downhill for the team.

    Hunter and RVP were not getting any decent passes to finish. That being said, Hunter’s movement needs a lot of work. He was isolated pretty much the whole game. He needs to keep moving and stay open to receive passes.

    I know a lot of people are calling for BVM to be sacked. A lot of blame on him as to who he should have started and who he should have not. Well today, he put out a very offensive set of players but they just couldn’t do the job. Rijkaard’s Saudi Arabia are out of 2014 qualifying. I would like to see him back as Oranje manager. Maybe Frank de Boer? IDK what the future holds.

    Steks really saved a lot of goals today. This game could have ended 4-1 or 5-1 easily. The number of chances the Portuguese missed or were saved by Steks made the final score seem very diffferent that what it could have been.

  28. i would like to think the new team is

    GK: Vorm
    Defense: Van Rhijn, Douglas, Pieters, Blind
    Midfield: Nigel De Jong, Strootman
    Offensive Midfield: Robben, Sneijder, Elia
    CF: Van Wolfswinkel

    1. I think we have to change from a 4231 formation. It would be more of the same. Not sure what formation I’d use though, i have to think it more.

  29. I think we need to absolutely start from scratch
    new formation, 4231 worked when cdms had the legs to destroy and lets not lie in 2010 they were best pairing people got hammered playing against them
    manager BVM did a good job but its clear we need a fresh start and he isnt the person to bring on a new era from this shame of a euro

    players: IMO the only players who should be kept is stek, sneijder, de jong, vdv
    New players have the talent we should build a bond between them rather than get to our current situation where the only players who share a team are Babel and brafheid who are dogshit
    i think we should build around the core of clasie stroot stek douglas and sort the striking problem out early we have lDJ Dost and Wolfs who are good
    playing style: hard work with quality is the way forward or total football with a solid defence and midfield base which we could form

  30. and as manager who the hell wants Rijkaard, he has been in the wilderness for too long, i thnk we need an experienced head or brilliance
    id make the options of
    Frank de boer, Cruyff( still has something to give and im sure hed be wiling with full control)
    verbeek needs more timebut i like him
    hiddink is a twat but would be good nevertheless

  31. it’s an exciting, but scary time for dutch football fans.

    In one way, we have soo many good youngsters, But the truth is, not all of them will work out.

    But the good thing is that, they have been making moves out of the eredivisie, so now we get to see whos the real deal, and whos not.

    Bas Dost is going to werder bremen, if he does good, and the team does well it should alert us to his potentional

    Van Wolfswinkel been great in portugal, we need to see if he can repeat it and be consistant

    and other guys need to be seen, Anita might go to tottenham, he should so we see what he’s capable of.

    Ola john is at benfica, i doubt he would get playing time, but if he does, then we can see if he’s the real deal

    Questions linger about where Eljero Elia will go, but he will be leaving juventus but for who? Liverpool? Schalke 04? West Ham United?

    ibrahim affellay needs a year to get back to his old best, but should he still be at barcelona?

    what about our best young defensive prospects?

    Luckily ajax will be playing Champions league so we get to see Van rhijn, and Blind,

    and will feyenoord make it? if so it would be great to see fer, and clasie and others perform, especially Stefan De Vrij

    So it’s time to see what each player brings, and if they should be included.

  32. Im very dissapointed today but deep down after losing to Denmark, i knew this was going to happen! It was clear today that our boys just aren’t good enough at this level, our strikers are not our problem ( sure RvP missed chances against denmark) its the service from the midfield that was lacking. Huntelaar touch the ball maybe 3 times, he showed that he is very static as a striker and needs to learn how to make himself available to the midfield.
    But He is also not our problem, anyone who knows anything about football understands that quality teams are first built around quality defense, period! Our defensive players are well below the standard required to control the game the way good denfenders do, both in offense and defence!

    David O’Leary said it well after the game ” If that is the best defenders holland has in the country then they are in trouble”.

    Whoever, is the coach they must find new defenders if this team is to go anywhere in the next tournaments. I would perservere with Willems but the rest should go.

    1. So can van Persie and Hunter play together? It didn’t look like it today. Van Persie, who is a great striker, was out of his natural position and very ineffective, it seemed.

      1. I think they can if they both play left and right striker, not north south! This would give more width to the attack and create space through the middle , which is what good strikers do for their halves!

  33. World Cup Qualifiers are just around the corner. 1st game against Turkey in September (if I’m not mistaken). Unless fundamental changes are taken, I don’t think our recent performances will get us through. We are in one of the toughest groups.

    Netherlands, Turkey, Hungary, Romania, Estonia and Andorra. With the exception of Andorra, the other four will all give us tough games. Those away games will be even tougher.

    moving forward…

    1. New coach
    2. New replacements for Heitinga and Mathijsen.
    3. New replacement for MVB.
    4. Real wingers who can open up opposition defenses.

    Bottomline, this team needs a lot of work.

  34. It seems to me that the question for today is–what happened to the team we supported just two years ago? There are not many new faces on this team, the athletes are not old, the coach is the same–but the results were so very different! Yes, “we” were in a difficult group, but if the team played as it did two years ago, I believe we would have defeated Denmark, certainly, and Portugal as well. That result would have taken us through, to play the Czech Republic, whom I think we could defeat under the same assumption. That would have put us in the semi-final, probably against Germany–win or lose, for us another successful tournament.

    Instead, we have this tournament. 0 points, 2 goals, 3 losses and really pathetic play both individually and as a team. I paraphrase Winston Churchill who once said, but not about the Dutch–we have become as a national football team an enigma found in a riddle wrapped in a mystery. I do not believe there is an answer to what happened. Poor play, poor attitude, no aggression, no confidence, incompetent coaching, better adversaries than we are–maybe all are part of the enigmatic riddle which the Dutch have offered up the world in many ways and for centuries. The football mystery is why it happened now, but more importantly, what can/should be done to fix it.

    The next two years should be interesting. The world cup group we are in does not seem to be that difficult, so if we want to try new solutions to our problems, we should be able to and still qualify for the Cup. For me, however, it is no longer about qualifying for major tournaments. Is is about playing “the Dutch way”, with gifted, enthusiastic athletes who bring professional skill and attitude to every match. This Euro 2012 will go down in Dutch football history as an embarrassing experience which is best forgotten. These last 3 matches can not be fixed, as they will always represent the worst of our football history. I choose now to live under the guidance of Reinhold Niebur, the American theologian of German ancestry, who offered this prayer, called the Serenity Prayer”

    “Lord, give us the will to accept that which can not be changed, the courage to change those things which can be changed, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

    We now need to accept that which has happened, and to begin to hope that those who can make the required changes do so in honor of the spirit, skill and beauty of that which we all love and call Dutch football. We will indeed “bleed Orange” for a while, but I also believe we will all live to see the day when the bleeding will stop and a new and better day begins.

    1. ‘Excellent post.

      I think the answer to all this riddle/mystery thing is to be summed up in one word: desire.

      The team/staff believed they were the shit. That they were still top 3 in the world. They didn’t realise you need to work harder to stay on top than you do to get there.

      And, most of our lads simply lacked form. Heitinga, Wiel, Bommel, Sneijder, Afellay, Robben…for different reasons… Not good enough individually.

  35. If there ever was a time for change and a fresh start it would be after this EC debacle.

    Keeping some of the experienced and not that bad performing players while inserting ones that have flexibility in terms of moving between lines and positions, to get some of the concept of total football back into Oranje. Otherwise they’ll end up being just another national side. Needles to say that will never happen with someone like BvM as coach.

    Hup Holland Hup

  36. @Steen,
    I wouldn’t give up on Rijkaard too soon. He did well as our coach in 2000. I don’t blame him for our players missing 5 penalties in one game. That just comes down to the mental strength of those players to convert under pressure.

    He did amazingly well at Barcelona winning multiple domestic trophies and the champions league. He was able to guide that team back to relevance after a period of underperformance prior to his arrival.

    After leaving Barca, he made bad choices in choosing where to coach. He should have gone to England and take over at a good team with solid foundation. Chelsea for example, would have been an idea job for him. I don’t know if he got offers or not at the time but after coming from a great success story at Barcelona, he should have waited and aimed for better positions to open up.

    He has already proved himself at the top level. His teams play attractive, Oranje style football. He will have the respect of the players. He has good personality and is well-liked by his players. I’m not saying he should be the one but I wouldn’t dismiss him so easily. He should definitely be considered for the job among others.

  37. Stekelburg made some good saves but a few shots came right at him, normally he would have clenched these, but he was boxing away each ball, like the BBc said ´making a meal of it.´ He was as insecure as the rest of our defense.

    I have to say I am glad Portugal won fairly. Their counterattacks were mindblowing. Renaldo was great and we gave him all the room he could get to excel.

  38. Guys:

    I am very dissapointed too but I think the players and manager thought everything was OK in the qualifiers because we won very easy against weak teams and in the prep games they thought that in the Euro they´ll win. Well, the reality is that the team wasn´t well prepared. In WC 2010 all teams knew Holland didn´t have a good defence but Van der Wiel was in a better level and we had Gio. Now we had Van der Wiel out of form and Willems who wasn´t ready but still was our best defender. Heitinga and Mathijsen were awful and Vlaar was too but was even better than Heitinga! That says it all!!!

    Life is a rollercoaster and sometimes you are up,sometimes you are down. After this Euro it´s clear the team is DOWN. But I think there is future. This team has to be rebuild but there is no case to ditch all players. Some of them still have some good years like Hunter, Van Persie, Sneijder, Robben, Afellay, de Jong, VDV. But still some of them have to be removed because they seem tired of representing the National team. I´d say, if Sneijder and Van Persie really don´t get along and will make a mess in team spirit, get rid of one of them or if Rafa will spoil team morale let´s sack him.

    The most important thing now is to choose a new coach who is able to reunite the team, boost some morale and build a new whole defence introducing new faces like Douglas, de Vrij, Maher, Fer, Ola John, etc.

    It´s unlikely the new coach will change the whole squad but yes, like the French after 2010, there is a need to change many things!!!

    And finally, with this defence and missing so many chances it´s impossible to progress in this group. Perhaps in other group we would have progressed but we the lessons received now the Dutch National team will be rebuilt very soon. I am talking about a new coach because I am sure BVM will resign or get fired. If that doesn´t happen I will still be a Oranje fan but won´t be following them.

    It´s absurd to say Oranje has a poor defence, simply BVM stuck to those players because he was a fool. There are better options out there.

  39. Just back from fathers day meal…had a chance to digest this loss…

    The team had no energy and holycrap was the defense bad. Our main problem is that was are slow and we need a replacement for Kuyt, someone to constantly press and win the ball, not sure who that is, but Strootman is a pitbull.

    I agree that the formation needs to change and for that to happen we need better defense…Sorry guys, but we need to become defensive minded until we can have the security of a strong back four.

    I am so ashamed and embarassed. i keep getting texts and messages from friends asking what happened, etc. i have no response.

    I used to think if we put VDV, RVP, robben and sneijder on the field together, magic would happen…and it DID used to happen.

    Now we are simply italy 2008/2010 – too old and too slow.

    1. Agree completely: The Dutch team has a lot of somewhat slow players, and
      midfielders, with the exception of de jong, cannot press and take back the ball. I think this team missed kuyt’s play. Van der vaart played hard, but while the defense is poor the midfield has problems too.

  40. Change should start with the manager. JC will never coach, too much headache for him. How come nobody mentions Foppe de Haan?! He won 2 under 21 european tournaments in recent years. Rijkaard has disappeared for too long. The core of players is good and there’s no need for a revolution. Parts will need to be replaced and then the machine will pick up again. If the right manager is chosen we can still make an impact in 2014.

  41. Good people, do not give up! We will return!! Dutch Football will not be gone.

    In the coming posts we’ll talk analysis and futures…. Keep the chin up!!

    1. Absolutely agree Jan and always it’s a pleasure reading stories and blogs and I agree we will not be gone and we will have to mind our WC qualifying run; I mean hell, we outperformed every team in the EC qualifying and this group D were in now, it looks like we’ll do the same thing, blow past every team for two years and then we just have to finish those last crucial games till the final. Still and will always be proud putting on my Oranje, whether it’s the blank or my Robben; I know Robben, Sneijder, RVP VDV, Hunty will click very soon, we just need to get our def right first and that’s that, if we didn’t press as hard and settled the game we could have won. Always keeping the faith and looking forward to a similar team, other than the obvious ones who are past their age with a new coach. Hup Holland Hup, friendly in August then we begin again in September, keep the flag waiving high!

  42. After some time to digest, those are my points:
    1. Bert may not resign and the Dutch newspapers are saying the KNVB will review his status mid-July a mere 1 month before the friendly against Belgium. Frankly, I am not sure there is anyone at the moment who could replace Bert. We would need a coach of De Boer/Guardiola’s generation and they are none available. Rijkaard has lost a lot of credibility by coaching ridiculous teams like Saudi Arabia nd not doing well there. De Boer is on a mission at Ajax. He said the other day on studio sports. He, Bergkamp and Jonk are the technical heart of ajax. The other names mentioned, Verbeek, Maaskant have no international experience at a high level. So really let’s face it there is nobody period. Sad to recognize that we do not have at the moment any high caliber coaches compared to Italy, Spain or Portugal.
    2. This is a very difficult situation to be in because the next generation is not ready. Modern football is all about ball possession “a la Spain” which requires players who play together all the time. This is what happened to us in 1994-2000 with the emergence of the entire Ajax team that had dominated Europe the way Barca is now. We don’t have this any more. So the only hope for Oranje is for Ajax and Feyenoord to do very well. Our future is intimately linked to the success of De Boer and Koeman (who by the way is interested in becoming Holland’s coach). If they succeed then Holland will re-emerge as a top football nation. You can see the young Dutch teams full of Feyenoord and Ajax products.
    3. Finally, I can assure you that had Vertonghen and Alderweld been Dutch we would not have lost one match. Add Vermaelen and we would have been water tight. Ajax’s defense is better than Holland’s.

  43. Wow never thought that this would happen.

    But the WC runnerup followed by Euro flop curse couldn’t be avoided once again.

    To sum up, let’s not be nostalgic and think that 4-3-3 will cure everything. Let’s just say that Holland’s usual midfield powerhouses (Robben, Sneijder, VdV) just ended the season in an off-form and bring bad momentum to the national team. Stek got a bad season and a bad club. The back four was far from convincing.
    But to radically change everything before the championship is simply not feasible enough. So the coach gambled and this time lost it.

    As long as Eredivisie composed of mainly local players and crops of good players constantly getting offers abroad from good clubs, I think you can rebuild the team. As I said before, BvM is not Domenech. He got logic and not basing his choice on superstitious or any irrational decision. There is a truth in sticking to the old guns.

  44. Narsingh Van Wolfswinkel Douglas Blind Castaignos will all come into play for WK 2014 along with a hopefully injury free match fit Afellay….

    Willems gained valuable experience…better to fail now than at WK2014. He will improve, get stronger and smarter

    The future is bright….

    Stekelenberg and Krul in goal it’s going to be ok….

    Germany are not that great – Brasil have no strikers, Italy are lost, France are very poor, England have no chance. Messi and Argentina stand alone in our path to glory!

    With our youngsters having great success at International level -it will carry us on for the next generation.

    Sneijder can still mastermind a victory over Messi’s Argentina in WK final 2014.

    I believe….

    1. Puff, puff give. Puff, puff, give Ed. 3 puffs in a row and you’ll hurt yourself. What the hell are you smoking? France is very poor?! Have you seen them play?

  45. Not surprised. Let’s be honest, in 2010 we had the same team but we had luck too often and players were a little bit in better physical condition.We had confidence because we never lost before the competition and it was our major quality but the way of playing was bad and empty, like now, we just had to thank Robben and Sneijder.

    Now that we lost many friendly games, we were used to. Nothing surprising. And just a statistic :
    – Germany went to final in 2002 = out first round in 2004
    – France went to final in 2006 = out first round in 2008
    – Netherlands went to final in 2010 = out first round in 2010
    We don’t go with same players who lost in final, they were so close to reach it, they don’t have the power and the energy to do it again.

    Now, I’m just afraid that Van Marwijk and the same players stay, it would just be like France in 2010…Awful. Van Marwijk is very comparable to Domenech : he reached the final for his first competition, people had a good opinion about him, he is discrete and arrogant toward medias, he talks like he is sure of his plans but it’s not working anymore. It would be a big big mistake to keep him.

    Let’s have a new coach, a new team, give a chance to youg players and players who never had (like Schaars), I would only keep Stekelenburg, Van der Wiel (though he was the worst one this tornament…), Vlaar, Willems (substitute) and Afellay.

    Let’s start like that qualify games :

    –Van der Wiel—–Douglas—-Vlaar——-Pieters
    ——————–L.De Jong——————-

    Substitutes :

    –Van Rhijn——-De Vrij—-Viergever—–Willems
    –Wijnaldum———–Maher————–Ola John
    ——————Van Wolfswinkel—————

    Let’s take example on France, Cabaye, Menez, Debuchy aren’t top players, but it’s better than old Anelka,Toulalan etc. we have to do the same, maybe it will be hard first, because there is no top level player, but with a team work, we can make something interesting in two years for 2014.

    1. Toulalan was never a top class if you compare him to Cabaye.
      Vlaar consistently being a leak in defense (since 2006).
      Van der Wiel has a good WC debut in 2010, but this Euro shows his fallability. I wonder how he took a beating from CR7 that bad.
      All in all, this was Holland team which forced itself to be offensive when it got no quality defender. You got to have the likes of Rijkaard or Stam.

  46. The Oranje flag collapsed!!!

    The team failed,the coach failed and the formation failed.Everyone is tired and hopeless.Disappointments and heart broken can’t help a thing.This tournament is a closing chapter of Van Marwijk’s book.

    Oranje needs a rebuild to keep the flag flying high on the sky.A new coach is needed badly.The old legs needed to go.We want a coach that must be wise,a good tactician,able to be flexible to use 443,442 and 4231.Go study how the Spanish,German and the Italian plays.Go get the new young bloods,they are speedy,hardworking and everything will be just OK.

  47. Jan, there are lots of young people on this blog/website who have been blessed with experiencing only success. That includes my 2 sons who are 18 and 16. For the older guys here who started supporting the mighty Holland/Ajax in 1970-74, this is not the first time. There was the post 1978 lull that lasted until 1988, then the post 2000 euro when we were trying to redefine an identity. But I have to say this euro is by far the worst. We were the only team with a streak of 6 consecutive qualifications out of the group stage. So yes it is sad but I do agree we will rebuild and get stronger. Now we have to beat Turkey in September. I will go from Washington to Amsterdam just to support my Oranje team!

  48. I wrote before, during, and again now that this tournament reminded me painfully of the 1980 European Championship. Too many coincidences. Coming off of a WK Runner-up performance. Drawn into a very tough group containing the Germans and a recent antagonist (Czechoslovakia in 1980 and Portugal now). Expectations were at the highest before both tournaments. First game against the “weak sister” where our performance was lackluster (1-0 vs Greece in ’80 on a PK). Lost to Germany in the second game in 1980 3-2, and here 2-1. Ended the tournament in ’80 versus the Czech’s and here with Portugal, and in both tournaments, the last game had us wearing our “away” jerseys. Okay, the last one is a stretch, but I am a believer in cycles and superstition!
    The point being, we all know what happened in the aftermath of the 1980 Euros. It was an 8 year trek in the wilderness for the KNVB trying to get back into a tournament. Losing out all 3 times (WK ’82 and ’86 & EK ’84) to the slimmest of margins and questionable actions. So the history is there, and one must always be wary of history.
    The plain fact of the matter was that the rest of the field caught up to our style of play and our tactics. Period. The “Totaal Voetbal” of the 1970’s petered out by the early 1980’s. It was for another generation to tweak that template, and with a lot of luck, capture the summit in 1988. We can re-invent our tactics and win without waiting 8 years. There are aspects of van Marwijk’s leadership that do work. His abilities in forging a unified vision have not been duplicated outside of “Iron Rinus”. We cannot blast van Marwijk and cast away his results so quickly. We can hold him accountable for the mishaps of this tournament, but do not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
    In essence, we need to recapture the vision of attacking Dutch football, but try and incorperate van Marwijk’s pragmatic and realistic approach for winning. The best thing is cool off for a few weeks. Few decisions made in a tempest are ever rewarding, but neither do we allow the achievements and tactics of 2010 to become an anchor which holds us lost in time.

  49. Ed, I disagree that France is poor. In fact I think they will make the final. They have a pretty weak defense but the MF and forwards are top class. I agree with Laurent, that we need to rebuild in a fashion similar to what Blanc did in France. Take chances on some young guys which has the advantage of elevating them to another status. This is why I was angry with Bert about his team selection. Both Urby and Anita deserved to be there. Even Siem de Jong could have been useful.

  50. Not sure how things will pan out after all of this but actually I feel better about these three losses in a row than after their WC final loss. Things can only go up from here, I hope.

  51. Bret, totally agree with you. This is a HUGE wake-up call. In a sordid way I was hoping for a loss today because I thought we had no chance anyway. I was afraid a win or worse a qualification would allow everyone to keep the status quo. And we don’t need that now. The only problem is that Bert is very conservative. So will he be able to do it? The mere fact we will Douglas will help us big time. Yes he is tempermental but my God he can at least play with his feet and his physical presence is enormous. The era of defenders who cannot pass the ball and are as slow as they come is over. Even England has decent defenders now. Give me Kongolo, Leerdam, Van Rhijn, Recik, Martin Indi. They are all fast, strong and technical.

  52. Hidding had a wonderfull team, much better than BVM: Kluivert, Bergkamp,Overmars, hasselbaink, van hoinjdoonk, zenden, davids, seedorf,cocu, de boers brothers, stam, numan, etc.

    So, i thnk BvM did it very good with this team on wc. My main objection against Bert is he didint give oportunitie to new players, he didnt renew the team, and never tried new tactics.

    If we are going to change our cocah i vote for Rikjaard.

    I think we must renew the team but givin place to our players like Sneijder, Persie, Nigel. They will have 30 years in nex wc.

    And mix with new ones: Clasie, Maher etc.

    Clasie is my favorite

  53. I am sorry but Rijkaard is done. I love him but never forgot or forgave him for the horrible subs against Italy in 2000. We had so much talent on the bench.
    Another point about subs. Look at Mancini’s subs against QPR down 2-1. He puts Nigel in and everybody says he is nuts. But he did it to release Yaya Toure. Defensive subs can be good ones. Today, Bert had to take KJH out and replace him by Affelay, releasing VP.

  54. Keko Cruyff has said he wont coach oranje nor ajax again, he is getting older… I think foppe de haan said same.
    I like to see van Gaal or Adriaanse…
    van gaal is free and burning with ambition, will set things straight for the knvb, I miss his rants at the press, he is a tactical master and team manager that can unite a group, and he is the perfect guy to mix talent and experience. But this probably wont happen as he has made many enemies last year. Adriannse is also free, and could do it. But he said he does not care for a job in holland now. If knvb would try with rijkaard again seems unlikely. There is not much around and we might get stuck with bert. !!

      1. VGaal had a bad one with oranje but as club trainer he was the last champion with Bayern, before that AZ, Barca, Ajax…
        anyway its not gonna happen i´m afraid

  55. This is a disgrace and it HURTS. It’s time for Van Marwijk and all his support staff to be cleaned out with a broom and antiseptic.

    That should be the last game for Stekelenburg, Heitinga, van der wiel (what a disgrace…he can’t even stay on his feet to stop Ronaldo from scoring his second goal), Mathijsen, Vlaar, De Jong, Van bommel.

    Burn 4-2-3-1 and return to 4-3-3. We need a complete new back 4 and start to defend as a team as Barcelona do.

    1. Total74;
      It will take more than a simple return to the “4-3-3”. It will take a committment to returning the attacking aspect of the 4-3-3 with all of the ball possession that implies, as well as the keeping of the middle toughness that van Bommel and de Jong gave us in 2010.

      Don’t forget; that ’74-’78 team had some very tough lads. Neeskens gave as good as he got. And who in their right mind went up against van Hanagem? And Krol could be as fierce as any. Taking all of the “Cruijffisms” with you, you must still be able to defend.

      Free flowing football enthralls and captures us. Defense wins championships.

  56. Today was just ridiculous watching MAthijsen get wrecked by the portugese, i know they are good, but these are supposed to be the best defenders in the country, the defenders from FC Eindhoven could have done a better job.

    I guess people say you cannot fault BVM but i completely disagree…he KNEW for 4 years that our defense was poor and did he try to incorporate any new solid talent?? Nope. Same ole same ole straight up through qualifying.

    I know you all will disagree w me, but i still dont like Robben in this state, he is SLOW and didnt beat a man. We have nobody who is electric out there.

    Therefore, we need to really try w John, Narsingh, Elia, anyone! And we need to find the new Kuyt.

    Strootman also needs to be groomed into the next midfield boss.

    1. Paul;
      Spot on about Robben. He looked (as did the rest of the team) so completely out of any ideas. Once the first 15-20 minutes in both games had passed, the opponents adjusted and we had no answer. The only reprieve was that brief spell at the 65th minute of the German game when they let up. As for Robben; His trademark move inside has been found out. He has nothing else.

  57. And any BS about teamates needing to play together is BS. Portugal players play all over Europe, as do Croatians, etc.

    I think we qualify for 2014, but i dont think we are a force until 2016. when the new crop is in their prime.

    i am excited for the future though!

  58. Eduardo : Yes, they’ll be 30, it’s not so old, but seriously, do you expect them to do something after having lost five big competitions ? They couldn’t make it when they were 24,26, in good form, and you expect them to do it when they’ll be 30, always injured…Maybe we can keep one or two of them but not more.

    J : Van der Wiel was awful but he said something right : he isn’t used in a good way. Van der Wiel can better attacking than defending, nothing new, and Robben doesn’t even look at him, he never plays with. The result is that we can’t see his qualitys but only his defects.
    Afellay hasn’t been so good, but he is still “young”, he is one of our best players technically, I think he should take the keys of the game, the number ten.
    Vlaar has done it quite good against Denmark and tonight, he is slow but it’s definetly not one of the worst.

  59. i also would like someone to do a count as to how many chances RVP missed this tourney…how many on target? How many taken?

    Today he should have finished that shot he put 2 yards wide towards the end of the game, at least to give us a point in this tournament.

    Greaty club player, TERRIBLE NT player.

    Its almost like when he puts on the jersey he becomes someone else

    1. Arsenal is a weak team where even players like Chamberlain and Gervinho are considered as very good. It’s not like playing next to Robben, Sneijder, Van der Vaart…Sure he is the star there, and there is a tactical made for him, but individually he isn’t so good, he wouldn’t be a top player if he was playing in Barcelone, Real…

    2. Paul;
      Again… spot on. I harped to Jan about van Persie’s inability to convert when wearing the KNVB jersey. Magnificent player, but just not for the Oranje. Not entirely new or unheard of in sports. Many players throughout their careers have put up stellar numbers, but fail in either the postseason or on the “bigger stage”.

  60. @ LAurent:

    Completely disagree…are you kidding me? The number of goals he scored…30…equals the most ever by arsenal striker.

    He is one of the most talented players in our history..defintely do not sell him short. I love watching him play, but not in the NT jersey

    1. Seriously, he plays with Arsenal, the team where players like Flamini and Clichy were considered as “top class” few years ago. Everyone is good with Arsenal, as long it’s not important games…Where was he against Milan this year ? He has a system made for him as it’s the best player,just put a top class player next to him and give him less importance, he wouldn’t scored as much. In Holland he is next to egos like Robben, Sneijder, it’s definetly not the same.

      I bought many Van Persie shirts, I was a big fan of him when he was 23-25, his first seasons with Arsenal, but seriously, nowadays, he is really overrated. It’s a very good player but not the top at all.

  61. I really cant understand what was wrong there.
    Are our players that bad? Sure they sucks in this tornament. But look at how they deliver at clubs you cant really say they are incompetent.
    Some say drop VDV, Afellay, Heitinga…or else. I dont like that idea. They are just underperformed. I am sure some other country which is still alive in the tornament will be happy to have them if they can. We are talking about national team. If a player has flair but cant perform the only way is to motivate and support him, but not dump him like we are Chelsea or Man City.
    Afterall, nothing can be worse than 2002 so I can stand this one. I hope KNVB will take a look at Germany at 2004 and spend some time to think about our youth development, or at least give some support to the clubs. Make sure the players understand what is passion and spirit and teamwork. I hate to see our great talents lured by big money and then spend their golden ages on the bench. Too many of them have been wasted.

    1. Good point…what happened to someone like luc castaignos?? any word? Will he be the next drenthe??? he looked really good…is he toast???

      Why the fuck did he leave holland? wasnt he the next kluivert??


  62. One other thing was how TERRIBLE our set plays were…we had one corner today that DE Jong got his head to, but so many were awful.

    we have such good talent delivering balls in, yet in this tournament it was terrible…that is inexcusable and not BVM fault, i dont get it.

    Anyone have any ideas on why we couldnt deliver a good ball into the fucking box?

  63. I agree with those who say that we don’t need drastic changes to become competetive again. But what disappointed me most was Bert’s selection of the squad and his tactics for each match – I felt he really put us at a disadvantage.

    Why pick an 18 year old with no big game experience, and only 2 seasons at senior level in the Dutch league(!) as your starting left back against attacking players like Ronaldo? The fact that Willems was the youngest player to play in the Euros said it all. And then to pick no other natural left backs in the squad meant there was little that could be done if Willems did not work out. Didn’t pick Emmanuelson or Anita who had previously played there, and didn’t try Schaars either.

    And why start Afellay when he had missed almost the entire club season (not even training for most of it)? If I was Kuyt, Narsingh, Ola John, or even Elia, I would be pretty pissed off that he was there ahead of them (after all, at least Elia was training for the whole season).

    And then to simply pick attacking players who all like to cut in to the middle and shoot from distance – of course it’s not going to work! Playing RvP up front and Sneijder through the middle could work, but not when you also have Robben/Afellay/VdV also all trying to occupy the same areas. This is why, in every single game, we had less chances when Bert threw on more of the same type of attacking player. I think it’s also why Robben had a decent game today on the left, when he was forced to beat players on the outside.

    And VdV cannot play as the link between defence and attack – he is positionally ill-disciplined. I actually thought that his scoring early was bad for the game, because he was then too advanced and did not link up play from deep properly. Why was Strootman not tried? I can’t believe that Bert was happy to trust Willems but not the more experienced Strootman.

    Sigh – looking forward, I don’t think the formation needs drastic changes. Rather, more emphasis should be placed on balance. Start with two different types of wide attackers – an inside out winger like Robben or Afellay, and a traditional winger who will hug the touchline. Only have one playmaker – Sneijder or VDV. Play one destroyer and one box-to-box midfielder.

    As for the defence, well, although we aren’t rich in this category, there are options to consider. Douglas, the young players others have mentioned. Maybe even Maduro, who has just moved to Sevilla.

    1. “And VdV cannot play as the link between defence and attack – he is positionally ill-disciplined. I actually thought that his scoring early was bad for the game, because he was then too advanced and did not link up play from deep properly.”

      Wrong. VdV played one end to the other.

      Did you not see him even at left back once, covering for Willems?

      Remember: VdV was the LAST Dutch player between Spain and the goal in 2010.

      Your point is bogus.

  64. Hey guys,

    thanks for all the support, opinions for another tournament, Jan, thank you for keeping the fire going for all of us!

    If I was the hiring manager at the Dutch FA, and had the chance to hire a coach to lead us into this very interesting phase in Dutch football, I would hire Guus Hiddinck. A brilliant international coach, plays a system to the strength of the players he recruits, not the other way around, where a system is implemented, then puts players in those spots and hopes for the best. He understands talent, and had the balls to take chances, just like in the Euro 96 qualification game against Ireland in December/1995, the best game Holland played in my opinion.

    The next thing is, if I was Guus, and assuming I was the coach of this program, my lineup for the WC2014 Qualifier against Turkey would be:

    ——–De Jong(C)—Afellay—Strootman
    ——Ola John—-Bas Dost——–Elia

    Subs would include Wijnaldum, Anita, Maher, Clasie, Huntelaar, Van Aanholt,

    It is a reach in terms of player choices, because many players who played today are dropped from my lineup, but you cannot say that this lineup would have been worse than the results at Euro 2012. And, these youngsters would have fought for the ball and hopefully each other, something that lacked in this tournament from Holland, something that Greece had yesterday, Germany has major tournament after major tournament and that is the intangible that gets you through the challenges in a game.

    1. Some of you want to effectively change the entire team by removing Robben, van Persie, Sneijder and van der Vaart? I don’t think that works, these are special players who would get into pretty much any team in the world right now and have proven themselves in multiple challenges at the top level. Replacing them won’t suddenly make us a better team although it is a romantic notion. We saw what happened with Willems.

      What we actually need is a change of the system. I am not a tactical expert, but I would expect someone at the helm of Holland to be one. To get the best out of these players you need to have a system that gets the best out of them. You also need good man management and motivation to integrate them into your way of thinking, your plans. During the Euros it seemed van Marwyjk lost the squad, or didn’t have a plan. He kind of hoped that getting all these great players together would somehow create a great team. He also failed to build a squad during the qualifiers, which were an easy ride and the ideal opportunity to build the bench. Otherwise how on earth would an 18 year old rookie become the go to man when Pieters is not available? An 18 year old rookie shouldn’t come anywhere near the Dutch squad for a major tournament unless he is a special talent and a special talent Willems is not. He is a good player who will improve, but he is not a special talent. Pieters’ injury was unlucky, but it doesn’t speak much of the maanger if Willems was his number two guy, and he was able to figure that out just before the Euros when Pieters got injured. I doubt Willems would have made the squad if Pieters was fit, and here he was starting all our games in the absence of Pieters. That is incompetence. I am not knockng Willems, it was also tremendously unfair on him to thrust into the Group of Death at his age and experience. I hope he is a strong lad who will be able to put the disappointment behind him.

  65. @Ed? ´ Messi and Argentina stand alone in our path to glory!´???

    Did you watch the game? We were lucky not to be slaughtered by 5 1 !!

    1. I’m optimistic and all, and no offense Ed but reading some of your comments I want what you’re on. You can read my posts in my full support to Oranje, but to completely disregard so many great countries in the world, that only one stands against us (esp 1 man), I mean come on. Trust me, I’d even like to believe that and even if it was proven or predicted (preferably by a squid hahah), perhaps there is some truth to this. Listen guys, we rebuild no drastic changes, if they decide to keep Bert I’d like the idea of Maduro, Anita, Strootman but for fcks sake DO NOT GET RID OF Robben, VDV, Sneijder, RVP, De Jong, Hunty their time is not up yet and I know they will come good once their confidence is restored; a lot of them did have disappointing campaigns that negativity was brought into this.

  66. One striking thing is we started all the matches well and then suddenly lost intensity. This could mean one of two things

    1. The players were not in top physical condition and tired out very early
    2. The opponents made fine tactical adjustments after which we had no answer

  67. I doubt that people on this blog look at dutch league and qualify games of Netherlands…

    Seriously, Emanuelson as left back has almost always been bad. With Ajax first, it was the joke of Feyenoord supporters few years ago : “haha you have Emanuelson as left back, De Cler is much better”. With Netherlands he had some chances, really bad, his last one was last year, twenty minutes against Hungary, he came up, big mistake, goal.

    There is a fact in Milan too, for one game, Zambrotta was injured and Antonini had a red card, they thought about him to play as left back, they tried it during the training but he was as bad as they prefered to take a young player of 18…

    1. Tim De Cler, the same guy that started in the third game at WC06 against Argentina? Are you serious? Weird analysis, and this is the problem with this blog, people who assume that other don’t watch Holland qualifying games then respond with a player that has not been called up for 6+ years. Strange.

      1. I don’t think Laurent was saying De Cler is a better option; rather he was pointing out that a few years ago, when Emmanuelson was playing regularly at left back, he was criticised as not even being as good as De Cler.

        Obviously the left back position is a weakness. But perhaps we don’t need to look any further than the teams in our group for the solution – Coentrao was a left winger until being switched to left back by the Benfica coach. Similarly, Simon Poulsen, who had a very good game against us, was a left winger until Van Gaal put him at left back for AZ. Van Gaal was also responsible for switching Badstuber from left back to centre back at Bayern. And Germany has played a central defender (Boateng) and a defensive midfielder (Bender) at right back for its three games.

        Heck, we don’t need to look any further than Gio as a good example!

        But obviously, whoever is picked will need to be solid defensively and have good positional awareness.

  68. We are not out of ideas….just out of sorts….
    Van Wolfswinkel, Huntelaar, Castaignos, Sneijder, De Jong, Douglas, Willems, Van Der Vaart, Afellay, Strootman, Narsingh, Robben….
    This core and a few new faces are still best of class….
    We need a more fluid system but it’s still a good core group!

  69. I think the defense and the team are just lacking a real leader, no veteran to guide the way.

    Maybe we just underestimate how much of an influence Gio and RVN were, on the field and in the lockeroom.

    Maybe we need a new Kuyt.

    I think it is a combination of factors. Gio and RVN were the last of the truly past generation of stars and instilled calmness and confidence.

    Who were those players now? Mathijsen? I am looking forward to having real defenders for a change…

    1. I think Gio was definitely the difference. Knowing when to tell the back four to push up and when to pull deep is a quality that none of the back four currently have. Our defense in WC2010 was fantastic compared to what we had on display here.

      That being said, I’m not too disappointed. We are Oranje, meaning we always have quality coming through, and we’ve always got some of the world’s best coaches at our disposal. Bert van Marwijk is a nice guy and I appreciate him bringing us to the final two years ago, but I think we’ll be going back to an established and reputable coach. I’m hoping for Frank de Boer, but it might be too soon for him.

      Chin up, boys! We’ll (hopefully) be going back to 4-3-3 and fluid attacking football! Don’t be sad! What’s done is done, and forward is the only way now!

  70. I swear some of you should get football lessons. To say VP is not technically good is absolute non sense. He is absolutely top class. Voted best player in the Premier League. Everyone recognizes he is absolute top. Read any interview about him by former players like Bergkamp or Henry and you will see what they said about VP.
    Paul, yes he missed a lot of chances which I think contributed to the team’s lack of belief they could do it because if the top players don’t score then who will? But on the other hand, he was at least there in the right position to score. His movement off the ball is sublime. What did KJH do today? Not one chance.

    1. Sometimes support just seemed to evaporate around VP: When he had position, it was hard to see the triangles.

      Either the others just didn’t want to help him, or they’ve lost faith he has any interest in one-touch, give-and-go, pass-don’t-dribble voetball.

    2. KJH is a penalty box poacher. We had no penetration today unlike against Germany and especially Denmark. KJH would have been the PERFECT target man for both of those games.
      RvP is a glorified midfielder not an out and out striker – like CR and Messi.
      They’re not centre forwards and they play behind a main striker in their national teams – RvP shouldn’t play as CF but as an AMC. Huntelaar is a natural CF. it’s just that RvP doesn’t support a CF very well – he looks to aeroplane out his arms and run into space rather than create it for a CF.
      Holding up the ball is great for a midfielder and a horrible trait for a CF. Huntelaar and van Wolfswinkel are the only option we have for CF ( Bas Dost for the future…)

  71. Some of you want to effectively change the entire team by removing Robben, van Persie, Sneijder and van der Vaart? I don’t think that works, these are special players who would get into pretty much any team in the world right now and have proven themselves in multiple challenges at the top level. Replacing them won’t suddenly make us a better team although it is a romantic notion. We saw what happened with Willems.

    What we actually need is a change of the system. I am not a tactical expert, but I would expect someone at the helm of Holland to be one. To get the best out of these players you need to have a system that gets the best out of them. You also need good man management and motivation to integrate them into your way of thinking, your plans. During the Euros it seemed van Marwyjk lost the squad, or didn’t have a plan. He kind of hoped that getting all these great players together would somehow create a great team. He also failed to build a squad during the qualifiers, which were an easy ride and the ideal opportunity to build the bench. Otherwise how on earth would an 18 year old rookie become the go to man when Pieters is not available? An 18 year old rookie shouldn’t come anywhere near the Dutch squad for a major tournament unless he is a special talent and a special talent Willems is not. He is a good player who will improve, but he is not a special talent. Pieters’ injury was unlucky, but it doesn’t speak much of the maanger if Willems was his number two guy, and he was able to figure that out just before the Euros when Pieters got injured. I doubt Willems would have made the squad if Pieters was fit, and here he was starting all our games in the absence of Pieters. That is incompetence. I am not knockng Willems, it was also tremendously unfair on him to thrust into the Group of Death at his age and experience. I hope he is a strong lad who will be able to put the disappointment behind him.

    1. And what was that changing into a 3-5-2 or 2-5-3 or whatever the strange system we played with towards the end? Simply overloading the attack doesn’t get goals, otherwise you could get goals by simply playing 10 attacking players. The change smacked of getting all your attackers onto the pitch and hope for the best, and it was a little embarrassing to think that that is the best Holland could come up with.

      1. We need a CF that actually scores plenty of goals and causes havok in the penalty area.
        Close games with goals finished by your midfield will work only when the midfield is firing on all cylinders and when the defence is held together by breaking up the play with defensive midfielders.
        De Jong is still able to keep pace but van Bommel is now past it…maybe Strootman for that role now.

        4321 no room for RvP – he’s a waste as a CF

        433 room at the expense of Sneijder – Sneijder is wasted when not used centrally and as a DMC he’s too far behind the play and not defensively capable of disrupting the opposition attacks as well as Strootman or De Jong

        442 RvP as 2nd/ shadow striker just behind KJH

        4312 prop up the poor defense with 3 defensive midfielders (Strootman in the middle alomg with De Jong and VdV) Sneijder behind the 2 front men ( KJH spearheading and RvP as shadow striker)

        The last one is my favourite…. Still offensive but provides better cover for a suspect defense.

        4231 works for attacking Germany and Spain, Brazil played this formation at WK2010 as well. Having another DMC capable of pushing forward like Strootman may be the key to fixing a suspect back 4.

        1. Exactly, we identify a system that helps achieve balance between attack and defence, and play the players suited to that system. If that needs dropping a star player from the first, so be it, but dropping all of Robben, RVP, Sneijder, Van der Vaart and replacing them with inferior players cannot be the answer.

  72. Extremely disappointing – expectations too high for the 2012 group of death – at least in 2008, all of the “experts” figured the Italians and French would go through and the boys stuck it to them – maybe the 2012 Oranje started to believe their own press – it all seems so simple yet embarrassing to have the Germans do their part and the Dutchmen couldn’t get it done…

  73. I think it’s fine for us to go out at this stage. I really wasn’t surprised. We just weren’t on form and our defense again is our achillies heel. We didn’t have the confidence. But the rebuilding starts here… We need to build a team for the future and start the integration process of younger players.

    Out: Heitinga, Vlaar, Mathijsen, NDJ, MVB, Kuyt (our MVP as our system suffered without his hard work), Bouma

    In: Bruma, Douglas, Martins-Indi, Pieters, Fer, Clasie, Maher, Ola John, Elia

    We will recover from this. We just need to get back to playing our football. We need to stay headstrong and united. I think the reason why certain players voiced their discontent during this tournament was because things weren’t going right at all and the manager was too stubborn to make changes. Oranje will return!

  74. What worries me is that to have a good defensive leader, you need a strong experienced defender who can calm down the backline…key word is experienced..we have no experienced defenders…

    Does nobody realize this? Our supposed future defenders are all like 19 and only played in the mickey mouse league…where do we find the Terry, Puyol, Nesta that we need?

    This is what scares me, the complete absence of defensive leadership

  75. Oh, and the real reason we lost is that other than RVP and KJH, our players are all past their prime. VDV, Sneijder, Robben, Mathjisen, MVB, this a team of old, post prime, very slowly declining superstars.

    Maybe we can picture 2010 as the peak of everyones form/talent as a collective whole, and 2012 as the slow decline.

    that is…2008 (Talent/Form rising)…2010 (Pinnacle)…2012 (Slow and disorderly decline)

    1. 2012 is not that bad….(hear me out)

      Denmark was an aberration…. RvP (or KJH) on any other day would have had a hattrick and we were denied 2 penalties too

      Germany was shockingly bad defending through the middle and Stekelenberg dropped low too quickly – that should have been saved

      Portugal was desperation…great start and then we forgot to mark CR. under these circumstances we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater

      2014 is still within reach. Douglas will add some stability and Willems WILL get better, he’s so young but has much talent.

      Upside? Lower expectations and less pressure….same conditions as WK 2010….

      I believe……

    2. Yeah I agree. Usually a squad gets about 3 tournaments before they need to make way for the next generation. Maybe 4.

      We really don’t have a Pique, Puyol, Nesta or Terry coming up. The defense is set to be our problem for some years to come. Especially if we continue to rely on Heitinga who isn’t even first choice for Everton. Working as a cohesive unit and playing selfless fluid football is one way to counter that. But it is a tough ask and will take time. With the right man in charge it is possible though.

  76. hate to read newspaper titles these days.
    most of them say “Ronaldo stopped Netherlands” or “Ronaldo kicked Netherlands out”.
    that sucks.
    but. what can you do now. take a deep 2 year sleep.

    ps. when do the wc2014 qualifying games start?

        1. he’s not useless, but he was making mistakes he should never make, ball between the legs, going down too early. he hasn’t benefitted from going to as roma, he needs to be able to play against teams who put pressure on him. I would like for him to move to another team

  77. Have to work in defense … and bosses on the deep midfield… replacing mmathijsen mvb bouma boulah coz age problem.. vdv might be … courage to play some young players on the field …

  78. Well, here is one way of boosting Dutch soccer and allow local talents to compete on a higher level within their own competition:

    Sooner or later the Netherlands’ soccer association will have to start thinking out of the box in order to elevate the quality of soccer in their homeland. Although new regulations regarding balanced books for clubs to be allowed to partake in the CL etc. will be to the advance of clubs like Ajax, PSV, Twente etc. another serious boost would be to merge the domestic competition of Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg!!!
    It will allow for better competition between their major clubs, elevate the quality of play, bring in more revenue, raise player and coaches wages and all in all bring more excitement. All very much doable in terms of travel time.

    Each country will still have their own champion and NT, could even arrange for some kind of play-offs but the BeNeLux competition could bring new life to a lot of dwindling clubs, methinks.

  79. lots of negativity… understandable but cannot agree.

    to me Joris, Mark, Nigel, Dirk, Steks and BvM took us to the final after 32 years. There is way too much criticism for players who over delivered based on their skills.

    I know it is time to rebuild but some of the comments are way off. Joris, Mark and co gave their everything and I would expect a little more respect. Anyhow, I hope blinded criticism does not result in another dark age.

    Half of the WK2014 qualification games are in 2nd half 2012… lets hope this doesn’t get screwed …

    1. Dark ages came about when we had little talent coming through….not the same this time around. Young Oranje have won many titles – the futures bright, the futures Orange!

    2. I agree- a little more respect to the quality of these guys would be appropriate. We have a squad of top caliber players that, this time, didn’t play as a top caliber team. No need to kick the lot to the curb.

  80. For me, it just looked like a bit of bad luck (starting with the Denmark game) that started to put everything out of sync. What kills me the most, though, is what really seems like a total lack of desire. It’s weird, too, because watching Robben sing the Wilhelmus made me believe that he wanted this more than anything. On the pitch, though, the players as a whole seemed to lack the passion, the driving desire to win.

    You guys have listed so many youngsters that can replace vdVaart, RvP, Sneijder, Hunter, and Robben, but I feel like the one that needs replacing is Edgar Davids. He was what was missing from this team- a dominant powerhouse that could own the middle of the pitch. I just don’t think you can do that with a collection of ‘artists’. Let the Bulldog own the yard then let the artists do their thing. Maybe that’s Nigel, but I’m not convinced- though I’d have to say he was one of our most effective players in this whole dismal display.

    On the RvP/Hunter thing, I’d always thought that the key was to have them both up front, the artist and the killer, so that we have options. To have them both on the pitch was not the point- they both need to be front and center. I guess that looks like a 4-4-2 or a 4-1-3-2.

  81. SamDC and others,

    What would you think of Giovanni van Bronckhorst as our new manager?

    He is a hustler and has a keen eye… he is smart, hungry for victory, and always had a fighting spirit. He would be a great leader albeit young… What do you think of this idea?

  82. best that we go out now than scrape into the QTRs (and losing of course!) and keep this game structure with BvM at the helm. It may have worked at WC2010 but would not even get us to WC2014. Now’s out time for a total revamp with the coach and the philosophy.

    1. Totally agree. It was the philosophy that killed them this time as there weren’t enough players of quality available to make it work. That or the selection and substitutes brought along were wrong. There might have been more factors that added to their demise but it’s the coach’s job to either make the preferred philosophy work or switch to another well thought out plan B.

      I think BvM never ever had any other plan than what he “successfully” applied in SA. They got away with it there with luck and better players (might have been the same lot but in better shape). Heck, they might even be able to get away with it in the future but when it doesn’t work the coach should be able to intervene and bring sound solutions.

      Imo BvM failed three times and the KNVB will need to review if he is really a coach able to manage and inspire a team or just someone that has sold them a clever idea.

      1. I agree with you 100%, the system he was playing only works if you have the absolute best players possible playing it! Otherwise it is so defensively flawed that conceeding goals is inevitable!

        With the current group 442 would be much better, Hunter and RVP up front.

        Stroot, De Jong, Sneij, Robben across the middle VDV sub.

        Now we come to the problem, who are the back 4? Based on what i saw in this tournament none of them are up to it, maybe Willems in 2 years!

        help me out!

  83. We are most probably dropping 3 places in teh fifa ranking after this euro,the forecasted july ranking as follows :


    1 Spain 1695 0 239
    2 Germany 1597 1 309
    3 England 1327 3 182
    4 Uruguay 1297 -2 5
    5 Portugal 1170 5 174
    6 Argentina 1095 1 -42
    7 Netherlands 1079 -3 -155
    8 Italy 1071 4 94
    9 Croatia 1050 -1 -3
    10 Denmark 1017 -1 -2
    11 Brazil 1012 -6 -143
    12 Greece 1003 3 50
    13 Russia 981 0 6
    14 France 980 0 16
    15 Chile 961 -4 -33
    16 Côte d’Ivoire 939 0 -4
    17 Sweden 909 0 -1
    18 Czech Republic 854 9 83
    19 Mexico 832 0 -57
    20 Japan 829 3 7

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