The KNVB will evaluate Bert van Marwijk in the coming weeks.

We will do it now!

I believe Bert should go.

Not that he should be fired per se. I think Bert should resign. But despite everything ( weak defense, egos, blablabla) it is his job to keep it all in check and manage it. That is why it’s called team manager.

If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

He did well in 2010, we all say, but maybe it was the team carrying Bert to the finals, more than the other way around?

There is a number of aspects I can not pass judgement on. And I won’t. But I will mention them. The players’ fitness. What could Bert and co. have done about that? The weird 1300 km travel program for every game? Was that really necessary?

Things I can judge are:

– Squad & Team Selection
– Tactics
– Subs
– Team culture

I’d like to bring in some stuff I overheard in the post-Euros debates on Dutch telly. One fairly well positioned ex-player said that he had some off-the-record debates with Bert about Oranje and he got the impression Bert saw this implosion coming. Bert apparently lamented the fact that we had such weak defenders. Apparently, Bert felt that the Eredivisie central defenders ( incl Vlaar, De Vrij, Marcellis, Viergever, Gouweleeuw, Brouwers too) were too weak in footballing sense to support the gung-ho midfielders/forwards. The mismatch. According to this ex-player ( Rene van der Gijp), Bert was pretty desperate about this. ( “You tell me, Rene! You tell me who to pick!!”)

Can I start with Team Culture? The so-called camps and rifts? I think that is all a bit exaggerated. These camps and rifts are always there. 23 guys who are all machos and winners. You’re bound to get that. Even during the World Cup 2010 campaign I’m sure some players had issues, but we never heard. Because we were winning. Once you start losing, these things come out. Camp Sneijder Camp Schmeijder. Who cares. They are all cocky little brats. Let them sort it out. It’s of course something Bert needs to manage, if possible, but as we don’t know exactly what went on, I think it’s hard for us to judge Bert on this.

As for Squad and Team Selection, I do believe Bert is to blame for some of the grieve. Wilfred Bouma? Really?? Why? Why wasn’t Brouwers or Viergever or De Vrij ever tested? Is it really so that a 34 year old spent benchwarmer at PSV is a better option that someone like Viergever? If you haven’t tested it, how do you know?


I wanted to avoid Spain and I managed to do so…

Urby Emanuelson played left back for Ajax. Plays left back at times for AC Milan. Is experienced. Has 100+ pro games under his belt. Plays in the Serie A. Surely, he is at least as good as Willems? Don’t get me wrong: I like Willems. But an 18 year old rookie can only do so much in a team that is dysfunctional. Put Willems in Spain or Germany and he’d be great. But what do we expect from him in this Oranje. Knowing how badly out of shape we are/were, Bert should have protected him. In the Portugal game, he played horrific. Also, three top matches in 8 days is a lot for any player, let alone an 18 year old rookie…

I like Schaars a lot. Another player I like to see more of, but if you have De Jong, Van Bommel, Strootman, Afellay and Van der Vaart for the holding mid role and if Schaars himself declares left back is not his thing, why select him? Why not take another player who can play or is willing to play there? Vernon Anita for instance?

And why bring a real winger like Narsingh with many assists under his belt to the Euros and not play him? At all?

Why putting so much faith in a player ( Afellay) who hasn’t had 18 minutes of play in the last 6 months? Why play him in two games in a row? He’s not even a winger? Against Germany, a real left footed winger would have found Van Persie, but Afellay screwed up a relatively simple pass over 6 yards by playing it behind the Arsenal striker… And like Willems, everone knew Afellay would be able to play 3 games at top level in 8 days!

And any coach with Hunter and Van Persie in the squad would gladly play them both. The whole nation ( incl. Cruyff and Van Hanegem) pleaded with Bert to use them both. Put Sneijder on line back (on the holding level) and use Van Persie behind Hunter. At least try this out once! Bert never did. The only chance Huntelaar got was with Van Persie and Van der Vaart as wingers. Goodness gracious me! No wonder Hunter is pissed off! Bad management, Bert.
But if you do play Huntelaar, you need players on the flanks that will cross in. So, Robben on the left, someone else on the right. And you really want to play offensive football: Narsingh. If you are fearful of the balance ( or lack thereof): Kuyt.
And if you need legs to go from box to box, why not play Strootman instead of De Jong? Why not test these concepts?

So we’re evaluation tactics now… We played our best match in the qualifications with Van der Vaart on the holding mid spot. Why not continue on that path? Why resort back to the couple Bommel/De Jong? So many questions on line ups and tactics…

The most important one, the role of Arjen Robben. Robben in top form is in the same league as C Ronaldo. Just under the Messi league :-). He can tear you apart. But if he’s not ( the dribbles didn’t work, the left foot shots were all wasted), maybe he should play on the left wing. So he can serve up crosses. In particular when Hunter is on!

And we have all seen how the team was divided into a group tracking back and a group pushing forward. Leaving huge gaps for Danes, Germans and Portuguese players to have fun in. This is something the coach should fix. ( I think it’s something the players should fix too, but they clearly weren’t able to). And our coach wasn’t able to fix it. Too bad. Really sad. But that is a big no no of course.

We didn’t play too sexy in 2010. We wanted to fix that. But did we ever practice this? Do we actually have the back four to do so? Shouldn’t we be realistic and realise that without Xabi Alonso, Busquets, Pique, Ramos and Alba we can’t play that kind of football?

If Bert sees that Van der Wiel is not in top form, Mathijsen is not fit and inexperienced Willems is in the team, shouldn’t he be asking the lads to play sexy and attacking football?

I think Bert became the victim ( and the players too by the way) of good intentions: trying to appease the fans, trying to impress the world, trying to keep the “mates-vibe” in the squad intact….

Maybe Bert should have said: I can not play total football with this group. We are not good enough for that. We have no Krol, Rijkaard, De Boer, Stam. We will play like we did in 2010. Go for result. Win the Euros. And hopefully club coaches will develop some better defenders…

To top if off, I believe the substitution actions of Bert said enough. Bringing Vaart and Hunter changed the whole make up of the team. It affected too much. After they were on, it was chaos. Nothing was created, really. And bringing Kuyt late in the game had no function other than making sure the number 14 in the hierarchy got some minutes. Against Denmark, we needed Luuk de Jong. Against Germany and Portugal, we needed Narsingh.

In summary, I think Bert made many mistakes. And these mistakes tell me that tactically, he is limited. He only knows one system and has no ability to improvise or be flexible. He basically hoped and gambled that Oranje could repeat the 2010 trick. With lesser full backs. Non-fit Mathijsen. Rusty Van Bommel. And an unfit Afellay.

These mistakes, for me, mean that he needs to go. Let someone else have a go.

Bert deserves a statue. But he doesn’t deserve the job anymore…

So, the question arises: who now?


Is this our new ambassador??

In my book, no Ronald Koeman.

I don’t have any reason to believe Koeman is “The Man”. Why? He was great as a player but mediocre as a coach until now. He played 4-4-2 with Ajax! He got into trouble there with everyone. Including Sneijder and Van der Vaart! He left PSV for Valencia. Where he made a
mess of things. Some Valencia officials still wake up screaming “Koeman!!” when they had too much to eat that evening… He almost destroyed that club. Then he landed at AZ where they kicked him out before the season was over… There is no indication whatsoever that Mr Koeman can handle this. He has had one good season with Feyenoord. That is all!

Also, I think it’s wrong for the KNVB to approach coaches who are employed by memberclubs of the KNVB. Not done!

We need someone with:

1. Authority
2. Proven experience in getting results
3. A passion for total football, attacking football
4. Dutch nationality

In my book, Van Gaal is out. He screwed it up once. He, like Koeman, is thrown out everywhere as he’s a dick.

Van Hanegem won’t make a good team manager. He’s probably good as an assistant.

Cruyff won’t do it.

Rijkaard probably won’t do it.

So the best candidate is Co Adriaanse!

He has done tremendously well with Ajax, Willem II, AZ, Salzburg and Porto. He has authority. The players look up to him. Sneijder and Van der Vaart rate him as their best coach ever. He is great as a figure head, supporters and media respect him and most importantly, he has the balls to play attacking football. And he’s available.

End of evaluation.


My balls are this big!!

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279 responses to “My evaluation of Bert van Marwijk”

  1. Alberto says:

    Not sure Co Adriaanse would succeed as a national team manager. He’s more of a club coach, with all his peculiar training methods. He surely prefers attacking football.
    My candidates would be:

    1) Guus Hiddink (the return)
    2) Gertjan Veerbek (Az plays like Ajax should play in defense, pressing!)
    3) Frank De Boer (although I hope he stays with us at Ajax for a looong time!)

    It’s such a shame Cruijff will never coach Oranje. It would be so emotional, to have us coached by Rinus Michels’ apprentice and pupil.

    • Jan says:

      Hi Alberto,

      Frank de Boer and Verbeek have both declared not to be interested. Frank wants Ajax to return to the top and Verbeek is not interested at all.

      i don’t believe in returning coaches. The expectations always do them in.

      Every coach is a club coach until they get the national team job right? I think Co can work really well with the quality players we have. Don’t forget: learning to play and being fit is not the job of the team manager.

      • Alberto says:

        Well, I certainly agree on that. I’m not saying I dislike Adriaanse. I think he’s a great coach. I think the problem with Oranje is not only tactical discipline, which a coach like him can certainly bring, but also a motivation issue. Oranje needs someone that will bring every player to sweat till the last drop in every game! In this sense I don’t really know much about Adriaanse, so my opinion is severely “mutilated” in a sense. I know for sure of great motivational speeches from De Boer in the Ajax locker room! The problem with Oranje is that everybody is so talented (except defense of lately) that quite often players rely on some other player to create a spark!

        For me a National team coach has got to have:
        1) short term training methods based to reestablish fitness after long football seasons.
        2) ability to choose the right players, based on form, playing time and sheer talent
        3) ability to motivate players
        4) tactical flexibility

        A club coach has got to have:
        1) ability to choose the best players from your roster.
        2) ability to launch and develop youngsters
        3) ability to get the team playing a certain type of football. (attacking, please)
        4) ability to improve team fitness and tactical awareness of every individual player.

  2. Jan says:

    The AD newspaper says that one reporter claims that Huntelaar is the bad apple in the group and he most likely will not be called up again if Bert remains in the job….

    • Alex says:

      Odd bit of news to put out there as VI and co claim even though Huntelaar had an outburst, Afellay and Van Persie caused alot of grief by an arrogant posture. Where V.Bommel wasn’t taken seriously and V.d.Wiel was considered a bit loonie for being busy with everything but football.

      In my opinion, Sneijder was the only top player worthy of the captaincy. On and off the pitch he was the only mature, responsible and decent to good performer.

  3. Great analysis Jan!

    I won’t go all over it again… 😉 You know I never have liked BvM and his mentality. He destroyed the thing, the zest. So he must go. Period.

    Regarding the next manager, well, I understand your reasons against Koeman but I still would prefer him instead of Adriaanse. Koeman did well when he was at Benfica (I still remember some games with goose bumps!) and he was a hell of a player, someone for these guys today to look at.

    But surely there are more names in the talk, aren’t they?

    My choice would be Foppe de Haan, but as I understand it he’s now retired somewhere in the Pacific (where he manages to manage the Tuvalu national side). Lucky him. 😉

    Bottomline, the must sure thing (is it?) is that whoever camos will be better than BvM.

    Hup Hollad Hup!

  4. goose says:

    As usual nothing much to add Jan..

    vMarwijk should leave; its time to build a new team, maybe Adriaanse isnt a bad choice since hes pretty good with young players… im not sure though how he would go down with the older players (sneijder, vPersie etc.)

    i just want vMarwijk out because i believe he fucked up our reputation as a footballing nation; thats INCLUDING the WC

  5. SamDC says:

    Oranje have a history of problems with penalties. I don’t blame Rijkaard for Euro 2000 exit. I don’t blame him for Frank de Boer and others missing penalties. We wasted so many chances to score in that game. As they say, you can take a horse to the river but you can’t make it drink. There’s no guarantee that Maakay would have scored. We have seen Ronaldo and Messi miss their shots and their teams were eliminated just this past season in the CL.

    He has redeemed himself at Barcelona. He had a lot of egos to deal with while he was there. Just handling Ronaldinho itself is a monumental task. He was able to bring out the best in him.

    Before Rijkaard came to Barca, they had a disappointing period. He was able to rebuild that team and was very successful.

    He made bad choices with his coaching positions. He should have gone to better clubs like Milan or Chelsea. He is still relatively a young coach and I’m sure he’ll be a much better coach than some of the names being talked about in here.

  6. SamDC says:

    @Carlos,
    I wouldn’t be too sure about saying anyone will be better than BVM. If we fail to qualify for 2014, would you stand by that statement? If we failed to win a single game in the group stages of 2014, would you stand by that statement?

    Just because someone comes in and wants to play all out attacking football, doesn’t make them a great coach. At the end of the day, we need results. As a team who have failed 3 times in a world cup final, it is job #1 to win our first title more than anything else.

    I’m not saying we should keep BVM. Unfortunately, he has to go because he ultimately failed to keep the squad united, he failed to integrate new players into the system and wasn’t able to come up with a plan B when plan A failed.

    I’m a firm believer in being able to adapt your game to situations. I’m not obssessed with style as some of you in here are. I don’t want to lose games just because I have to play a certain style. It all depends on the players we have. I don’t care about what so and so thinks of our abandoning our Oranje style. I’m sure our reputation would be much better if we won a world cup and not labelled as choke artists or ‘always a bridesmaid’.

    I’m not saying lets abandon Oranje style total football. What I’m saying is that we need to understand that winning is more important for a nation that is so deserving of a World Cup title than obsessing about style. We can play our style and dominate games and win but sometimes we just have to grind out results. We don’t have to play every game conservatively like BVM did or every game openly. We must adjust our strategy depending on the opponent. We need to be able to do both.

    • Yes, I also wouldn’t be too sure about it. Of course that’s not guaranteed. Hence my (is it?)… 😉

    • And, yes, I would rather lose after playing a magnificent game than lose after playing a lousy one. At least I would have the fond memories of a great show and of great players and their moves. Sometimes that’s quite enough.

      If you compromise and forget about your personal style and sense of history, all you have left in the end is luck. Or faith. Luck goes either way, you cannot rely on it. And if faith won titles the Vatican would be World Champions each 4 years… 😉

  7. bobotoh says:

    Frank Rijkaard, I think he is the national coach of Saudi Arabia. And Saudi Arabia failed to progress to the next stage for 2014 World Cup qualification.

  8. Stijnis (OranjeAussie) says:

    Hey guys sorry guys but a quick question, where do I put my next round of predictions in for the fantasy league? Doing it from my iPhone and can’t seem to find it. Thanks.

  9. SamDC says:

    @Bobotoh
    Saudi Arabia are eliminated so he should be free. I don’t know if they still want him around or what his contract says.

    In terms of coaching choices, I don’t think he should have gone there. They are ranked #92 by FIFA. You need quality players. I’m not familiar with any of their players. It probably was a great paying job for the few days and weeks he invested during qualification. It’s probably more of a financial decision. As the Godfather says, they made him an offer he couldn’t refuse. Financially speaking of course. I doubt they failed because Rijkaard was not a good coach. A coach is not a miracle worker.

    We saw what he’s capable of with quality players. Barcelona before Rijkaard took over had a difficult spell. They were in rebuilding mode. He came in and was able to turn things around with a group of stars with a lot of ego. He won almost every domestic and European competition.

    Oranje also need to retool after a disaster of a campaign. Lot of stars with egos and underachievements. He is Dutch which will satisfy those who find it unacceptable to hire a foreign coach no matter how good or what he has achieved. He’s not new to Oranje. He was an assistant as well as manager. He is part of that 88 winning team. The only successful Oranje team with silverware. He likes his team to play Oranje style football. What a pleasure it was to watch Ronaldinho and company when he was in charge.

    Our choices to take over from BVM might be very limited due to who is available and is willing to take over.

  10. Stijnis (OranjeAussie) says:

    Castaignos set to leave Inter after refusing to be loaned to another Italian club stating ” I came to the seire A to play for Inter and wouldn’t play for any other team in the league. Also said he wanted a loan deal to feyenoord but was denied.

  11. Tiju says:

    For the better future of orange bert should go.i should say amen to goose’s statement..i was sadly watching the matches with my wife..it was OLD MAN’S TEAM…its not a surprise they lost..it was inevitable..BVM is VERY MUCH responsible for selecting WRONG PLAYERS..I WAS pissed of by the inclusion of many players in the team.
    Orange needs to be REBUILDED by strong charismatic,ethical coach…i think Adreanse and van gaal can do it.But van gaal is not concern about defence and its like a gamble.
    bert is paying for his fault…this is a time for change

    • Oranje Moose Knuckle says:

      Oh, Tiju!

      I remember you predicted some months back that Holland would lose every game in the group stages – the people laughed, oh how they laughed – and how correct you were, my little friend! How correct you were!!

      However, you also said back then (in the same post) that this would come to pass because Bert would pick Kuyt to start every game.
      Some irony then that Holland lost every game precisely because we didn’t have Kuyt (or even a similar fighter/workman) in the starting line up.

      Hey, that’s life.

      Also, little tip, using capital letters doesn’t make your comments any more or less valid – just harder to read.

      And on a final note, you may have more luck getting people on your side if you add these three simple words to some of your sentences:
      ‘In my opinion’

      It will make your claims more palatable – which means people might actually read your posts. In MY opinion you do make some salient points – whether you get there by rational logic or not (I’m not sure Afellay, Willems, VDW, De Jong fit into your ‘old man team’ theory, for example). There are always other factors to consider. Haha!

      Completely agree though. We need a new manager.
      Dutch.
      Old school.
      Takes no shit.
      Plays 433.
      Wants to attack teams.

      Rijkaard would be my choice, followed by De Boer and Hiddink. I don’t know enough about Adriaanse, but Jan seems to like him. Interesting that Jan says Sneijder and VDV rate him as the best coach ever. Was this in youth before they knew any other managers? Without a date, that statement becomes potentially misleading.

      • Jan says:

        Raf said it in the interview I had with him six months ago. Sneijder said it one or two years back. Mind you, they both like Koeman too :-).

        But Adriaanse gave them both their break in Ajax 1 and most players think fondly of the coach who brought them…..

      • Jan says:

        By chance read an interview recently of a player who worked under Adriaanse at Twente, and who didn’t like him (as he never got playing time) but he did say: his practice material and working method is awesome. Never experienced anything like it.

      • overmars says:

        Oranje Moose Knuckle. Who the fuck are you to talk to me like this? I’m not your little friend. I’m your DAD. Ask your mom. I’ve been on this blog years before you came here. Now that you moved to your mom’s basement and have a computer with an internet connection suddenly you think you can talk shit to people. I hope your mom kicks you out of the basement soon so we don’t see your ass here anymore.

      • Tiju says:

        @ Oranje Moose Knuckle. Thanks for your advice about the capital letters. FUCK YOU AND FUCK KUYT. YOU FUCKING SON OF A BITCH.

  12. Julian says:

    Ha ha … Always heard about the koeman incident after the EK 88 semi final (which he deeply regrets) but never seen it until now. Look at the expression on his face!

  13. Balkan says:

    Great analysis Jan. Almost exactly what I’ve had in mind has been so eloquently written by you. Bert has failed, failed miserably. A good coach cannot fall short in so many areas. I am really hoping that he would quit honorably but he doesn’t seem that type.
    The only thing I don’t quite agree is “letting brats sort it out themselves”. They will never sort it out because they’re brats. Therefore a strong manager is needed. There’s millions of books and thousands of highly rated professionals who deal particularly with group management and making all sorts of characters work together and in the process create synergy. I believe a soccer team should be treated just like a business where coach is the CEO.
    I too vote for Co Adriaanse. Someone who hasn’t been involved with NT in the past and who can bring new coaching methods with him and who also hasn’t spent too much coaching time with any of these players in the past.

  14. Onzie says:

    willem van hanegem recommended Co Adriaanse, but in truth, i never saw much of him as a coach. besides him at twente, (streaming online never allowed me to watch ajax back then)

    At Porto I was reading he was playing 3-3-4, yes you read that correct, 3 defenders, 3 midfielders, and 4 attackers.

    but if anyone knows of his training methods, i would love to learn what he does,

    what formations he uses, and How can we expect him to play

    I remember a while ago, in like 2006, Co adriaanse said he would play 3-5-2 with holland with the players they had then. during van basten’s qualifiers for the world cup.

    • Oranje Moose Knuckle says:

      334?

      F*ck it. I’m sold. Give the man the job. We’ll crash and burn but my goodness it will be pretty this time.

      And I can live with beautiful failure. It’s almost romantic.
      After 4 years of ugly failure however, I would rather a cobra inject its venom directly to my eyeballs than watch my beloved Oranje play again at this moment. I am humiliated by our current style of football.

      I just wish I could trust the KNVB to make the correct decision this time. I do not.

      • Onzie says:

        yes i was reading that and it was confusing, like he had raul meirles and others at porto at the time, and they won the portuguese league playing 3-3-4 which is weird as hell. like i can’t imagine how it works,

  15. Marcel says:

    from Wiki, i like this part 🙂

    Training
    Adriaanse is famous for his controversial training approach. At Willem II, he once ordered his whole squad to follow him by car, while they drove 13 km away from their training ground. At a remote spot, all players had to give their car keys to Adriaanse. Then he drove back to town, while the squad had to run in front of his car. Back at the training ground, the players got their car keys back. However, since their cars were still parked far from the training ground, they all had to walk back another 13 km.[6] At AZ Alkmaar he once ordered the whole squad to search for Easter eggs during a training session. They looked for an hour until Co Adriaanse finally revealed there were no eggs hidden.[7] Adriaanse already had these strange training methods at the start of his career, because when he was a youth trainer at Ajax, he sometimes ordered his players to lay on the ground. Then a teammate (with football boots on) would run over the bodies.[8] Because of all these infamous incidents, Adriaanse is sometimes nicknamed “Psycho Co”.

    • Ignacio says:

      I instantly liked him after reading this. Let´s make a petition to the KNVB for him to be the next coach haha.

      And I don´t believe the part about him letting someone run over his teammates with football boots on. Scary.

      Let’s play 3-3-4. That could be quite fun.

      • Onzie says:

        even if we did play 3-3-4 who would we play?

        Defenders, Pieters, Douglas (center) Van derwiel
        Midfield, De Jong, afellay Sneijder
        Forwards in the center, Van Persie, Huntelaar,
        wingers Robben, Ola John or boereigter

        I can’t imagine that

    • Rich says:

      I would see this creating issues. Basicly by his actions he is saying I’m in controll.

      You earn a players devotion with earning respect not by being disrespectful.

      I can’t see any team of guys responding well to this. But this is a few cases, I don’t know anything else of him other then these few bad stories.

  16. Oranje Moose Knuckle says:

    from wikipedia:

    Adriaanse is famous for his controversial training approach. At Willem II, he once ordered his whole squad to follow him by car, while they drove 13 km away from their training ground. At a remote spot, all players had to give their car keys to Adriaanse. Then he drove back to town, while the squad had to run in front of his car. Back at the training ground, the players got their car keys back. However, since their cars were still parked far from the training ground, they all had to walk back another 13 km.[6] At AZ Alkmaar he once ordered the whole squad to search for Easter eggs during a training session. They looked for an hour until Co Adriaanse finally revealed there were no eggs hidden.[7] Adriaanse already had these strange training methods at the start of his career, because when he was a youth trainer at Ajax, he sometimes ordered his players to lay on the ground. Then a teammate (with football boots on) would run over the bodies.[8] Because of all these infamous incidents, Adriaanse is sometimes nicknamed “Psycho Co”.

    Hahahahahaha

  17. Oranje Moose Knuckle says:

    great minds, marcel. great minds. you beat me to it. i doff my cap.

    • Marcel says:

      no worries my friend, the fact is that we all agree that our next NT trainer should have big balls and should have a great of attacking football mentality …

  18. Marcel says:

    Co Adriaanse Quotes:

    “I have a lot of players with a lot of potential. My team is getting better and better, but I prefer a team to a collection of stars. As a manager, you can never depend on one player. If he is injured, sick or thinks ‘today I won’t work’ then you will lose.”

    “Leaving McCarthy was a disciplinary measure. Whoever does not obey leaves. Be it the best player or the best paid player. The team has to be more important than any player.”

    • Rich says:

      I do not like this old school aproach! History will repeat itself like always. If he gets hired it will be worse then in previous years.

      The dutch are amongst the most stubborn nations on the planet. If you get a coach that is going to be a drill seargent, you will have players not playing or quitting like we’ve seen With Gullit, Davids and Van nistelrooys feuds with Van Basten!

      If a coach wants to bench a player as van basten did to RVN, a man who scored 150 in Man U. Van basten shouldve been shot for that!

      I don’t give a shit what problems a coach has with a player, you make sure the best damn players are on the field! If he can’t deal with it then he shouldn’t be a coach!

      Man if RVP didnt have things go his way you would have the second coming of the anti christ!

      These players are what make a team, if the coach is going to be an asshole these guys won’t respond!

      I don’t know where a lot of people are from on here, but I’m from Canada. We’ve dominated hockey for some time and if we had a coach that comes in here and doesn’t respect the players we wouldn’t have done so well.

      With players such as Gretzky, Lemieux, and Crosby, these guys know the game better then any coach will ever be able to period! The coaches give them there respect and they get it in return! They are apart of developing the strategies with the coaches and that’s how its gotta be!

      This “its my way or the highway” Bullshit has got to stop!

      If you want controll as a coach go earn it don’t come in and take it like a bull in a china house!

      Look I don’t know anything about this coach but those controll freak storries don’t work for me!

      Like I said with Canada and Hockey, if a coach came in with that attitude to team Canada he would be out so fast his head would spin, because he would create so much problems players wouldn’t buy into it and Hockey Canada would have him out so fast!

      Oh yeah but I forgot we don’t hire coaches that have bigger Egos then the players!

  19. dutch dream says:

    Well thought out Jan, Adriaanse is my favorite for the job, Koeman must prove himself a bit more before he would be tried by the knvb.

    Under Adriaanse AZ played the most beautiful football I have ever seen by any Dutch clubteam. They also did very well in the EL.
    Even with Willem II, with the most mediocre players Adriaanse managed to play nice and effective football back then.

  20. dutch dream says:

    Marcel The first two anecdotes are legendary and true but not the third. DId you think ajax would allow players being run over by teammates with their boots on? The butter and bread of the youth academy? Not everything on wiki is true.

  21. Ilir says:

    Sneijder thinks Mou is the greatest coach ever he have worked with. I suppose he has a growing list 🙂
    Foppe de Haan would have been a natural choice. He won trophies with the young Oranje. But we do know well common sense is not KNVB forte.

  22. Ed says:

    If Van Marwijk couldnt control the ego’s then neither would Co.

    Those antics work on less experienced players but on Sneijder, Van Persie, De Jong, Van Der Vaart, Robben

    Hou je bek man indeed!….

    It wont just be Robben this time!

    Not that our spoilt brat club superstars dont deserve a serving from Co, its just that with the KNVB, player power reigns supreme……

    • Marcel says:

      @ED- If what you are saying about the players power, then simply i could tell you that we will never win any cup…

      • Alex says:

        Tbh I dont think Sneijder or De Jong are the real problem, and I can’t imagine V.d.Vaart being much of a pain, probably just bummed that he doesnt play, same for Huntelaar. In fact, the only ones I could actually believe could cause trouble would be V.Persie, Afellay and Robben, since the former 2 seem to have an odd position in this whole squad and the latter has had an ego the size of a city block since I can remember. Though the problem in this oranje squad is maybe not Robben, who would probably perform fine if he is in form and on the right spot, but I suspect V.Persie and Afellay just think they are the all time best players/leader above the rest. That works fine… as long as perform and win games. I am pretty sure all of these irritations wouldnt be made this big if they just won every match. I suspect it started when Bert never changed his squad, the lesser performers must have caused for frustration, and once they lost to Sweden I think it just started a downward spiral of blame, frustration and growing misplaced arrogance while not performing, several players wanting to decide what happens while their feet didnt do the talking and then Bert sticking to his own plan, ignoring everything else.

        That is only part of it of course, also uncertain or maybe overconfident players not being in form and a lousy defence made sure there was half a team pushing to attack and half a team to lie back and defend.

        That’s my summary, Coaches’ faulty system and players bad performances causing tensions and rifts to rise, succesive losses due to this, lack of form and conflict over playing styles within the team caused further rising tensions up to a point where all they did was be annoyed and worried about everything from a never changing playing system, a playing style they dont like, being mad at the press, being annoyed by others etc.

        If the system had fit better, the right players had played on their best positions and had performed a bit better, even if not in topform, all this talk of tensions and ego’s would not have bloated up to this size. It is with trouble and failure that tensions burst most easily.

  23. AveSilesia says:

    I agree, with Jan’ 4 condition, but i want do add one more:
    defensive – i love total offenive football like everybody (every dutch fan must love offensive), but every EC or WC winner play excellent in defense. It’s not issue of 4 back only, but this is responible all 11. Even Hunter as classic 9 should be our first defender, when we play in defense, and Stekelenburg should be our first attacker when we play id offense.
    This is modern total football of XXI century.

    btw. what do you think about Cocu as “bondscoach”? He know players, we have not much time, but he is different than Bertie. I know this is german tradition when 2nd coach become 1st, but maybe we could try…

    • Alex says:

      Portugal defends with 10 people, Ronaldo never backtracks. Maybe the problem is we had 4 guys that didnt back track because they thought they were too good offensively for that. When you’re out of form you tend to do more work anyways, everything is more difficult so then maybe too many people thought they could better save their strengths for when it mattered most.. in attack. When you add that with an insecure defensive backline it becomes quite difficult not to concede since you have no real midfield.

      Though having faster/better defenders should help with an attacking minded team, you can play higher up the pitch and the attackers have to do less back-tracking, at least less often over such long distances.

  24. Bitterballen says:

    @ SamDC I totally agree with you about playing for results rather than for entertainment. At this point I am fed up with attractive football that fails to deliver championships and that’s all I want from Oranje.

    Hiddink took us to the semifinals of the world cup (we lost to penalties) and he has a boat load of experience on national team level, delivering almost every time he takes the helm.

    I am shocked Guus is not mentioned more.

    Co Adriaanse is a gamble and I’m not sure that’s what we need at this point. He could be remarkable or he could be a flop.

  25. dutch dream says:

    I can add another anecdote about Adriaanse.. last year with Twente he played one game in the EL using 5 (!) strikers.
    But twente lost the game, and he was criticised by twente fans after that for his naieve attack style.
    Still this story always makes me smile. Adriaanse is great, I wanted him with Oranje forever but never thought the knvb bosses would dig him.

    • Alex says:

      Lol, I said the other day, If I’d been oranje coach having lost 2 matches, I’d just put 2 pure wingers on the sides, Sneijder as a controlling playmaker and play with 2 deep strikers and a n.10 and just sling as many balls into the box as possible. With Huntelaar, V.Persie and Luuk de Jong/Kuyt you’re bound to score from that!! 😛

      • dutch dream says:

        I been dreaming of a lineup like you suggested… and I am sure we would have done better than we did.
        Why did we not play a little morte opportunistic. Why we always re-position ourselves 23 times before we played deeply and our opponent knew exactly how to defend us.

  26. Mohamed says:

    Well , From what i read it seems this coach is crazy 🙂 Simply what Oranje needs lol 😛 .

    I remeber his name was mentioned after Marco left the job by the KNVB to be Oranje Coach , But the chose Bert in the end .

  27. SamDC says:

    @Carlos,
    you are still missing my point. What I’m saying is that we should play our attacking style of football. I’m not against that. However, if there’s a game, I mean a single game where the coach feels like we need to change our strategy and play more conservatively in order to win a game, then I’m all for it.

    If you always keep doing the same thing, you become predictable to opponents.

    I never said, let’s play a lousy game and lose. You didn’t understand what I was trying to say.

  28. SamDC says:

    I’m absolutely not for taking any gamble. If Adriaanse is as you guys are describing him to be, I don’t want him anywhere near Oranje.

    Look guys, we are still waiting for the holy grail of Dutch football. A World Cup trophy. We had the chance to win it three times!!! We came very close but we still failed to do so.

    Our margin for error is slim. If France or Germany take a gamble on a coach that has never coached before, they can afford to do that. They already have a World Cup title(s). France would be looking for their 2nd and Germany for their 4th. We need a known and proven coach. We don’t want to wait until 2018 for another World Cup to comeby.

    All you guys who are willing to appoint anyone, are you guys prepared to wait another 6 years if your “anybody is fine” coach fails to deliver?

  29. Jeff says:

    No chance the KNVB will pick Co. He is a pure and total Ajax man and has failed everywhere else. He is way too controversial.

    • Mohamed says:

      perhaps with PSV and Feynoord assistants , jeff ?

      • Jeff says:

        I don’t think so. He is perfect club manager if you can adopt his training methods. I really don’t think he would do well with national teams. He is very similar to Van Gaal. I remember him when he became coach at Ajax and I have to say that he oversaw the emergence of VDV, and many other young talents at Ajax (Knopper, Bobson, and so on) but most never did anything. Munsterman fired him after 6 months at Twente. Enough said.

  30. alaa says:

    My friends today I want to tell u a very exciting story!

    Once upon time in the 20th century in 2006, there was a famous national team who wore the famous blue jersey and was nicknamed “les bleus” this team went to the WC 2006 after being eliminated in the second round in euro 2004. This team was managed by a famous man named Domenech, this man led his team to the final of the world cup after beating Spain in the second round, brazil in the quarter final, and Portugal in the semifinal (harder than this road to the final it does not get)!!! His team lost the final to Italy only thanks to penalties! Soooo, his story with “les bleus” was extremely successful by all means. Only bad luck on penalty kicks made him lose a very well deserved title!
    This guy Domenech went on to the euro 2008 and his team lost all of its three games in the first round and they were eliminated in a very humiliating way!!! At that point the wise men of the French federation met and decided that this guy who led his team to the world cup deserved to remain in charge for the world cup 2010, and we all remember the disaster his team had in 2010 and the divided camps and fights he had within the team!!!

    Moral of the story; it is the same freaking sequence that’s happening with van marwijk and the oranje now, do we learn from other teams mistakes???
    This guy’s time with oranje is over, that’s it, he gave what he can, was very close one time, and this time he was totally off with all the in fights, the wrong picks, the wrong strategies and overall the disastrous results! If he got eliminated like Sweden or Croatia after fighting every game I would say yeah he was unlucky, but this guy he had a team that if was trained even by a kid on the street maybe would’ve done better!
    The van marwijk era is overrrrrr! If the kvnb commits the same mistake of the French federation they would be killing the national team, we will remind each other!!!

  31. Bitterballen says:

    @ alaa, i think the majority of people agree with you here. it’s not hard to convince us that BVM is no longer the man for the job. However, I do respect his effort and appreciate his taking our team to the world cup final for the first time in forever. I do prefer a new coach like Guus Hiddink, someone with drive, hunger, and proven success. I want a results-oriented, points first manager. If it were up to me, I would sacrifice our style completely and start from the back but the KNVB will totally trash that idea. The point is that I want to get back to the final and win it.

    First and foremost I want a coach who can rebuild quickly, contain star talent, and instill drive. This coach will need to appoint Sneijder as captain and get the engines roaring from the get go.

    Unless there is an able replacement (Like Guus Hiddink/Jose Mourinho/ Guardiola caliber), I don’t want BVM to go. He isa results first coach and that is all I care about. I am sick and tired of leaving gaps open, allowing space for counter attacks, and pressuring our defense for no good reason. I want to score beautiful goal but not at the expense of relinquishing easy ones to our opponents.

    I watched an Argentina/Brazil match replay last night and both teams are beatable. We need to move forward now and will ourselves to a championship. I don’t want to wait until EK 2016 like most of you say…. Why?? We wait so many years to develop a new golden generation and we can do it again quickly. We need to provide our young players with the tools and belief required to succeed rather than wait and wait and wait. NOW is the time.

    • Rich says:

      I agree with you, however the time was now. Good luck in WC with a blossoming Germany and an aging dutch team.

      There are no Sneijders, RVN’s, or Robbens coming up.

      I would like to see a Hiddink, his system did upset are team last euro that made the group of death look like a cake walk.

      I hope I’m wrong but I can’t see getting past quarters in 14 with are stars all being 30ish. Guys like Robben and RVN were stars at a young age we have no one that is at that status currently.

  32. Hien says:

    Well analysis Jan. I do not know much about Co Adriaanse so I will not comment about him. Let’s see what KNVB does. Perhaps they can pull a shocker announcing JC and Van Hanegem will run the national squad together? Nah…

  33. AL says:

    I like Adriaanse and his style is very Dutch school. I’m not sure whether it’s the right style in these days, even though i am tempted to show it to the world. My choices in order:

    1. Hiddink (he remains the best contextual leader in the world of football – he just knows what to do with the current team in the current context)
    2. Rijkaard
    3. Adriaanse

    Given the right stuff, Hiddink can play Dutch school and awesome football as well … just look at 1998 WC. So with him you have the best of both worlds.

  34. SamDC says:

    @alaa,
    you are correct, there are a lot of similarities. However, there are also some differences. 1st of all, France had quality and veteran defenders in the back (Sagna, Gallas, Abidal, Evra). BVM had no confidence in an incompetent pairing of Heitinga and Mathijsen. He chose to play conservatively with two holding midfielders to protect the back line.

    Domenech is a very eccentric person. He picked players based on their horoscope. Ludovic Guily who had a great season with Barca that year, Nasri and Benzema were all dropped. Can you imagine what this blog would be like if BVM left Robben, Sneijder and RVP because they were born on certain dates?

  35. AL says:

    By the way, Hiddink will be exceedingly difficult to get. His contract with Anzhi finishes at the end of the 2012-13 football season, so definitely he’s not coming before that, and even at that stage, the Russion billionaire can keep him easily if he wants to. So it was just my preferred list of candidates rather than the potential candidates.

  36. Jeff says:

    Alaa, good analogy but there are major differences already outlined by SamDC. Domenech was really an idiot. I remember him as a player and believe me he was not one of the smartest guys out there. Bert on the other hand is very intelligent and well rounded. I have met him twice in the Amsterdam Arena. Great english and a classy guy. We discussed lots of topics not related to football, talked about the US as a country and opportunity for immigrants, politics in Europe, etc. He asked a lot of pertinent questions and left me very impressed. I truly believe that if he feels he should resign, he will.

    • Mohamed says:

      Great to know this about Bert 🙂 .
      The thing that makes me think he should leave , aside with the bad performance in the EC , is the Robben incident.
      I kinda felt he lost his control on the players .

      If i were him i’d definitly drop all those players who are ” Diseased ” with their ego .

  37. OranjeBoom says:

    As always Jan, phenomenal article! My sentiments exactly.

    Bert selected players but never had any intention of using them. I have been nothing but frustrated watching Oranje after the WC. He has been knighted and deserves a statue or wall of fame at KNVB but he needs to go.

    Janmaat, v.Rhijn, Bruma, Viergever, Nuytinck, Douglas, Gouweleeuw, De Vrij, Pieters, Willems, Blind, Emmanuelson all need to be tried out in different combinations in the next games by a new manager.

  38. Bitterballen says:

    Who plans to watch today’s game? ugh I can stand the sight of Portugal… I think they are my least favorite team!

    My top 5 least favorite teams to go thru now:

    1) Portugal
    2) Spain
    3) germany
    4) Italy

    Yours?

  39. OhYeah says:

    By the way what is the Dutch people’s reaction to losing to Portugal, AGAIN? I’m depressed beyond words that we simply cannot win against this country. We’ve beaten France, Italy and England, but we can’t beat Portugal? What the hell!

  40. Balkan says:

    Semis: Portugal – Germany 3-2, Spain – England 3-1

    Final: Spain – Portugal 2-1

  41. OranjeBoom says:

    @Pico
    yeah you are right. I misplaced my brackets.
    Spain to take on Portugal and the Germans to play Italy. With Spain/Portugal you have an exciting attacking match while on the other side it’ll be a boring technical-defensive affair as neither the Germans or Italians play with any imagination.

    Final
    Spain vs. Germany
    2_________1

    • Alex says:

      I think if Spain defeats Germany at a major tournament.. again!! it’s going to be somewhat of a trauma for the Germans, haha, they lost to the Spanish in the 2008 final, 2010 semi’s and that would be the third time !

  42. JB says:

    Not a BVM fan per se, but how do you think he would have run the team had he had a strong backline?

    Would we have seen more cohesion and attacking play? Would we have had more width with the backs overlapping the inverted wingers?

    At the end of the day, Holland’s current backline was exposed, and we all saw the reason for the two holding midfielders.

    Do you think this problem area is a selection issue (Bert didn’t pick the right players), a formation issue (Holland should have played a 4-3-3, etc.), a tactical issue (Holland should have played more of a possession style, a countering style, etc.), or a developmental issue (there just aren’t good enough defenders to choose from)?

    • JB says:

      My point being, the next Holland senior international side we see will likely be pretty different than this one, with the defensive issues a primary focus, regardless of who the coach / manager is.

      What kind of coach would BVM be with a better defense? Or is his approach (or failure to recognize the current weakness) the source of the problem itself?

  43. alaa says:

    guess what my friends:)

    u will be surprised but this boring ugly england team will play the final they will beat italy then germany!!! and on the other side it is the diving portugal after they beat spain in the semifinal!!!

    england portugal is the final!!!

  44. Andrew says:

    Nice analysis, Jan. Agree that BVM should go. Most coaches have a shelf life; the players start to hear the same things over and over, and they stop listening. I like the idea of Co; the team needs a real shake up.

    But my first pick would be Hiddink. The team is a bit shattered right now, and they have qualifications coming up soon. They need to avoid the WC 2002 qualification problem: there the team was gutted by a bad Euro result; they had a team that was beginning to age; they started out slow (an early 2-0 loss at home to Portugal, an early home draw with Ireland), and it was too much to overcome. Hiddink has a history of picking up damaged, but talented teams and rejuvenating them(’98 Oranje, Chelsea, Russia—and they had some issues going into 2008 EC, and then were floored early early in the group stages). Plus, he has good tactics, thinks outside of the box.

    —the PSV side that played Milan off the field (moving Park inside, playing Vennegor of Heselink further in the middle of the pitch so that he could not down long balls in the midfield and control the game, pushing MVB forward);

    the ’98 team, seeing that the talent was more suited to 4-4-2, and making space for Ronald De Boer by putting him as a “faux” right winger, but giving him license to go everywhere so that he ws the link between Jonk/Davids and the forwards; in the Korea game of that tournament, with Bergkamp still carring an injury and Kluivert suspended, putting Cocu as a forward…the Russia match in 2008 (painful, of course)

  45. alaa says:

    @oranjeboom:)

    keep laughing but please remember my predictions and i will remind u of it few days from now:)

  46. Samuel Oudegeest says:

    Great analysis Jan.

    Totally agree with your hat tip to start with the logistics. Any decent coach when handed that travel schedule would have handed it back and said “try again”.
    And if you don’t do it – I’ll go public.

    And on experimenting – oh my lord why bother with friendlies if you aren’t going to try things? You knew you were lucky in the WK – that the offense never really clicked – and you don’t try soomething?

    These guys bust their guts with their clubs and deserve the best thinking from their national coach. He didn’t even try. After the Sweden loss and the 3 goals against Hungary it was clear that the pieces didn’t fit – and he didn’t try anything.

    In clubs managers can go buy what you want and build to your system – but on the national teams you have to see what you got and try to create a system to take best advantage of what you have. On D (or V 🙂 that means looking desperately for a back 4 that will work. And on O it means looking at the guys who are hotter than the blazes and figure a system to use them. And it was bloody obvious that Van P could be the shadow striker and Huntelaar the man on top. And if Sneijder didn’t like – well tough you have VdV.

    And yup you’d need fast wingers on both O and D – and you’d need those guys to run like anything – especially to stop Ronaldo. And don’t make it a secret – I want you to run until you puke – and then I’ll sub you. You ain’t going more than 60 – and that’s you too Robben. You of course your allowed to scowl all you want and call me whatever you want but bust your gut or out earlier.

    And yes – please, please use 3 subs! You need fresh legs – you have the subs – you need a goal – and you don’t put them in? Why don’t you just walk over to the other team’s manager at 70 minutes and shake his hand and give up then if you’re not going to try? Why should the players on the field push if you’re not. Pathetic in each game

    And god Bouma over Emannuelson – when you desperately need speed? Watch the end of each game as the other teams poured in – where exactly were the people tracking back? There were huge holes that could have been filled.

  47. alaa says:

    i hate both team protugal and england from my heart, but thats the feeling i am getting. i was hoping to see a final of spain france after oranje was eliminated but since this final is not possible any more this is what i see now!!!
    the ugly part is that all the candidates now england portugal germany italy and portugal are teams that i detest! i hope spain beats them all!!

  48. Eduardo says:

    @Ducth Dream, thanks for Ajax´s news

    @Jan great article.

    What do you think about Foppe de Han? Whas do you think aboute Adriansen job in Twente last season? I don´t like it at all, but I respec him a lot.

    Maybe will be good Co. Adriaseen as cocha and Gio and Foppe de Han as an assitants

  49. Jeff says:

    Alaa I am with you. Despite being French, I do not support the French team. I have not since Platini retired. I hate all these teams with a passion. The one I hate the least is Italy.

  50. Paul says:

    @ Jan:

    Great analysis, as usual.

    Not much to add, i think Co could be good.

    As long as it is not Koeman. People, if Koeman is appointed, i predict no qualification. You can quote me on that.

  51. Eduardo says:

    @Paul the same with Fred Rutten in my point of view

  52. Jason says:

    Co Adriannse would be my pick.

  53. OhYeah says:

    As for the remaining teams I support the Czech of course, because simply put they’re not shitheads like the rest. But of course they won’t win because nothing has worked out for the teams that I support in this Euro.

    Got to be the Germans who will win. I just hate Portugal and England that much more, and Italy and Spain already hve trophies won in the last major tournaments.

  54. Demi says:

    It’s hard to write a few lines to support Bert when the world of this blog seems against him. Some of the critique is spot on “limited thinking, limited changes, not good adaptability” but some other critique sounds like “I dont like him” …

    if you carefully read what is said here, Bert was carried by the players in WC2010 but he is the one who failed EK2012 (although he picked the same players). mmmm… not making a lot of sense.

    some criticize he didnt use WK2010 tactics and some other because he used WK2010 tactics before. So which one is right? 🙂

    I think Bert has a lot of shortcomings and they became more apparent now that the team failed. But somehow, the big picture presented here is “It’s all Bert’s fault, players get a pass”. With that, I strongly disagree.

    anyhow, there is no doubt that Bert will leave sooner or later. and this is correct. every coach has self life, and his is close to expiring.

    Right now, the coach of the Oranje is an electric chair. Lots of qualified people would avoid it, so FdB is smart for not wanting it. I wouldn’t take it now either, If I was him.

    Issue is, what do we do with qualification? We are not in a tough group but then again a couple of bad results and we are out.

    We asked Bert to make changes, he made them, now we complain why he did it 🙂 So, who’s to blame if we fail Turkey in September?

    Don’t you guys need we need more time to think?

    Right now, only Hiddink can put this thing together in sort time. But we can also let Bert drive a few more miles if the replacement is too risky.

    It is all a risk calculation. Why take too much risk with a replacement we are not sure about?

    • OranjeBoom says:

      I can’t speak for anyone else but as for me Bert’s choices and lack of action was frustrating and irritating.

      Friendlies: A time to experiment and try new players in an established system. You have 6 allowed subs… how many does Bert use? 2 and only in the last 10 minutes. WTF are Wijnaldum, Huntelaar, Beerens supposed to do with 10 minutes? How will we see who can fit in with our squad if we don’t try out younger players?

      Substitutes: No matter what is going on in the game, losing by 2 or 3, the opposition mounting a comeback, momentum change…Bert won’t make a change till after the 70th minute ala Rafa Benitez. Then the sub itself is ridiculous sometimes.

      Tactics: Bert doesn’t have a backup plan. There is no plan B. No change of formation, no shifting of players, the timing of subs puts those players under too much pressure to get a winning goal because they only have 10-15 minutes.

      It just hasn’t been enjoyable to watch. Not for me at least.

      • Demi says:

        Bert has a lot of limitations and no Plan B. Agreed.

        But as per not trying new players, the argument is they are all very weak anyway. Sure we can try but they only apparent thing will be “see I told you, they didn’t do much”. Just like the argument against playing with one holding MF.

        He tried several new players in the friendly against Bayern. What did you see? nothing much.

        Wes was absent minded half the time on the pitch. Bert’s fault ?

        What if we select Co A and the first game against Turkey doesn’t go as planned. Then what? We lose the entire qualification series.

        I just don’t see how blaming Bert for everything will motivate Wes and rest. Seems to me everyone is willing to gamble an immediate coach change will up the spirits and bring results. Well, if the game with Turkey fails it will bring the very opposite result. I am not in favor of playing russian roullete with the WK2014 qualification. That’s all.

        • OranjeBoom says:

          Yeah I see what you mean Demi. Oranje are in a tough situation. Which in the end boils down to the players. I understand nobody wants to get hurt in a meaningless friendly but they should still be games that are won. Players should still work hard so a fair evaluation can be made. Everyone knows Oranje like to coast through every friendly. The players need to be on the same page and playing as a unit is what is important. That’s how a crap Chelsea side just won the CL. They hardly had the talent but did so as a unified team.

          So you definitely have a valid point.

  55. SamDC says:

    I think if France can get by Spain, they have a chance. It’ll be very tough for them to accomplish that. Blanc has some good players available. He needs to put Evra back instead of Clichy. Clichy just can’t make a cross. I have never seen him make a cross that someone was able to head into a goal. He wastes so many chances.

    Cabaye did very well in the first two games. Jeremy Menez should start. Mexes is suspended so it looks like Koscielny or Reveillere. Koscielny is suspect on defense even though he had a good season at Arsenal while Reveillere is a bit old at 32.

    The way I look at it, France needs to show some motivation and initiative. If they sit back and try to absorb the Spanish attack, they could find themselves playing catchup.

    Blanc should start Menez on the right wing and Marvin Martin in the playmaker role.

    I see every other team as beatable including Germany.

  56. SamDC says:

    @Demi,
    I completely agree with most of what you said.

    This Euro exit is for the most part the failure of the players. I guess some in the squad thought they were playing for BVM and not Oranje. How do these athletes who make tens or hundreds of thousands a week in wages and played at the most physically demanding leagues not be fit for a tournament of this magnitude?

    We knew our defenders were bad. But how did they become so utterly useless in such a short period of time?

    BVM’s biggest mistake as a coach was that he only had plan A. He played almost every game with the same tactical formation. No matter who is the opponent, he chose to play 4-2-3-1. Very rigid system. Lot of players were slowly getting tired of the inflexibility.

    The team just didn’t have mental tenacity. They couldn’t recover from one bad loss against Denmark. A good team will shrug that off and come together. Just look at Spain in the 2010 WC.

    I’m really worried now about our replacement plan for him. If the federation can’t come up with a decent and acceptable replacement, do they stick with BVM or just change him for whoever they find is available?

    If somehow BVM does indeed stay, he would have to retire some players because he may have lost their trust and vice-versa. It could well be a lot of new faces with whoever is willing to tolerate BVM. We may lose Hunter, VDV and Robben as those three seem to be dissatisfied with their role. Sneijder may stick around assuming he gets the captain’s band.

    I just hope KNVB would look outside of Holland if they run out of possible coaches who are available or willing to take over the team at this point.

    • Demi says:

      agreed and I am very concerned about the Turkey game. I am against change just for change and throwing things to the wall to see what sticks, simply is wrong and irresponsible at the moment.

      Maybe Bert has to go, maybe now. But instead of saying this guy or that guy, we need to come up with a plan.

      What are the main issues?

      How the replacement is going to solve them?

      Once these two questions are put on the table and we have answers, we can always select the one with the best answers.

      I think it is simply wrong to say “A will fix it”. Sure but what is he going to fix and *how* ?

      • Oranje Moose Knuckle says:

        ‘Bert has to go, maybe now. But instead of saying this guy or that guy, we need to come up with a plan.’

        ‘What are the main issues?’

        ‘How the replacement is going to solve them?’

        ‘We’ don’t need to come up with any of those things. Those are problems for a new manager. Some of these discussions are borderline ridiculous.
        Praise Bert all you like. He tried. He Failed. That’s an end to it.
        We will get a new manager, thank goodness, because it cannot get any worse than it already has.

        ‘What if we select Co A and the first game against Turkey doesn’t go as planned. Then what? We lose the entire qualification series. ‘

        Really????? We lose the ‘entire qualification series’ after one game?
        This is one of the single dumbest things I have ever read in these comments sections.

        Astonishing.

        • Demi says:

          Listen you fuckin piece of shit oranje moose. If you disagree with something I have to say, then either respond in a respectable way or shut the fuck up. It is funny how you act as a tough guy here. In real life you won’t even dare to say the things you say here in someone’s face you fuckin pussy.

  57. Bitterballen says:

    wow. the czechs are making us look really bad. defending with all their might, attacking with a vengeance and keeping crybaby at bay….

  58. Bitterballen says:

    Can anyone explain to me why the ESPN crew is so obsessed with Portugal and Crybaby 7 (aka C7) ? During the whole halftime report, all they spoke about were the Portuguese and the things they need to do going forward… how about the Czechs? What do they need to do? Last I checked it was 0-0 with a good shot for either team to advance so please take your eyes off C7’s pelvic area and be more objective with your reporting… thanks

  59. AL says:

    Crybaby has been vgood last 10 mins of 1st half.

  60. OranjeBoom says:

    God he’s such a damn crybaby. I hope the Czech’s knock them out now. They’ve got the determination

  61. AL says:

    He hits the post 2nd time in this match! We will see him cry today if they lose 🙂 But honestly he’s playing a good tournament. Wish at least one of our stars did the same.

  62. HedonistiX says:

    Great points, as usual. Agree that BvM got to go for reasons most of us already pointed. Whether or not they were his fault, the boss will always have to shoulder the blame if things go wrong because they also will get the best kudos when things go right.

    Several random observations/questions from me:

    1. Why didn’t he rotate more players during friendlies and qualifications (post-qualified)?

    2. Why didn’t he recognize the obvious poor form of some players? MvB being the most obvious and ironically he was our skipper.

    3. After finally watching the tape of the Portugal match, one thing I’m not getting: in all 3 matches, we played really well in the first 15-20 mins, then “lost” everything. I’m still scratching my head, I’ve watched football for more than 25 years and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a team so schizophrenic in a tourney. If we pick 11 of us from this forum, I’m not sure we can play worse than they did against Portugal beginning min. 20 to end of match.

    4. Why did you insist the next coach to be Dutch? Who else are realistically “in the mix” other than Koeman, Adriaanse and Rijkaard? I’m asking based on availability, not perceived skills, because you can argue that we should consider all top coaches (Dutch or not) but whether or not they can/want to leave their current job, i.e.: Frank de Boer.

    • Demi says:

      >Why did you insist the next coach to be Dutch?

      because after the first unfortunate result, a foreign coach choice will backfire badly. Even if it is Pep, make this “after the first 3 unfortunate results” …

      if the players don’t wake up after this summer we are in deeeeeeep sh**************

      • HedonistiX says:

        because after the first unfortunate result, a foreign coach choice will backfire badly.
        —–

        Not sure if it’s a serious or sarcastic remark but even with a Dutch coach, our team backfired after the first unfortunate result, did we not? We actually backfired after the first 20 mins of match 1 …. 🙂

        • Demi says:

          sorry, maybe I wrote it in a wrong way but I meant it seriously. The possibiity of a flop is very high for the next few matches. A foreign coach will be burnt like a witch. Sure a domestic one will get similar treatment but he might get a second chance. I think a foreign coach is too risky to consider at the moment. It is not a skills issue. Just it will exarcebate an already bad bad situation.

          >We actually backfired after the first 20 mins of match 1

          agree 100%. But if you look at history, it is not uncommon for the WC challenger to end up like that. Getting older factors, dissapointment factors, “don’t-carism” … it happened to us before, it happened to others too. Happens in a different way but it happens a lot.

          Think about it, it is hard to almost reach the top of the world and not get the trophy back. It plays in a different way but eventually it is hard on players.

          How do we fix it?

          • HedonistiX says:

            But if you look at history, it is not uncommon for the WC challenger to end up like that. Getting older factors, dissapointment factors, “don’t-carism” … it happened to us before, it happened to others too. Happens in a different way but it happens a lot.
            —-

            I have to disagree here. Back to my 4 points, I honestly don’t recall ever saw anything like this. Maybe France under Domenech that one year – which could have been worse than us this year – but that’s about it. At least for that France team, the players just refused to play and walked out. Our players played really well I’d say in first 20 mins or so ….. sorry to mix up the multiple points in this discussion but they are somewhat related.

            For the “don’t car-ism”, I think it’s always been more prevalent for the Oranje but just never happened like this year. It’s absurd.

            But yes, now I do see your point about non-Dutch coach and it does make sense in term of given more time.

          • Alex says:

            @HedonistiX, Of the 9 last EC’s, including this one, 7 there was a European Vice-world champions present, only on one of those occassions did that team get through the group stage of the following EC. The rest – including us – all got eliminated in the first round.

  63. Paul says:

    Meh…Czechs are defending light years better than we did and helps to have Peter Cech has your goalkeeper.

    Why does Cr7 cry everytime he misses or hits the post…ive never seen anything like it before.

    i cant believe we lost to this shit portugal team.

    • Bitterballen says:

      … likes this (thumbs up)

    • HedonistiX says:

      Why does Cr7 cry everytime he misses or hits the post…ive never seen anything like it before.
      —–

      That’s nowhere close to as bad as his changing his hairdo the beginning of second half against Germany. Yes, I observe this kind of useless things to be observed …. 🙂

  64. Paul says:

    wow…did you see Cech’s footwork there when he got pressure from Almeida?!?! Better than Robben showed all tournament!

  65. Balkan says:

    I’d love to see Portugal out but it seems like it is just a matter of time before they score.

  66. Bitterballen says:

    up to now i think portugal is reliving our danish game

  67. Paul says:

    and there is crybaby’s goal.

  68. AL says:

    Man of the match. Hate it but no arguments about this.

  69. Balkan says:

    The b!tch just scored but it was well deserved. Czechs got what they deserved. Very limited team.

  70. Paul says:

    i love the espn commentating updating the MLS Portland Timber-Seattle Sounders game schedule…haha…its juxtaposition there for ya

  71. Paul says:

    i hate the whining portugese c*nts….thats why they are, cry and moan and complain all the time

  72. Paul says:

    i have not seen one shot on goal this half…really terrible performance by the Czech’s…who still won more games than we did and made it to quarterfinals

  73. AL says:

    Czechs were lucky to qualify from a weak group. Tell you what I’m seeing a Germany Portugal final. That will save some of the blushes for Holland.

  74. OranjeBoom says:

    Crybaby will be contained by his Barcelona rivals and Madrid team mates in the next game. France have a decent squad but they were outplayed by Sweden. Spain should beat both these sides.

  75. Onzie says:

    it’s the invasion of the PIGS, i can’t imagine a semi-finals of Portugal, Italy, Greece and spain, that will make the euros cry of a set up

  76. AL says:

    Portugal are united, team spirit is high, they have good players everywhere and their leader is in top form. He already scored 3 and hit the post 4 times. Spain were not impeccable against Croatia. At this stage Spain Portugal is an open match. Of course they have to beat Les Bleu first.

  77. Hien says:

    Demi, you have some good points, but Bert has lost control over his players. Either he molds his own team, live and die with his creation or if he feels that these players will not play, listen to him than let somebody else becoming the coach. There is not many choices of Bert’s replacement so it is interesting to see what KNVB will do. I agree that not many people wanting this job right now so I am not surprised to hear Frank De Boer turning it down. He is not ready anyway (does not want to duplicate Marco’s mistakes).

  78. Gio says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VutDip6TGoc&feature=related

    Frank de Boer shouting, complaining, indicating, guiding, leading. Did we miss this guys? as they say, don’t dwell on the past but boy oh boy “what if………..?”

  79. hjb says:

    could not disagree any stonger. The good Lord Himself could not have put this disfunctional band of spoiled prima donna’s excuse makers on the same page,

    you would have more success trying to herd a bunch of cats into the same place as trying to create a united front with this bunch of whining underachieving sob sisters

  80. OhYeah says:

    hjb: Yes, I’m sure even Messi couldn’t make this Netherlands team work well.

  81. Hien says:

    JB, JC did not offer any solution. He just repeated what many already saw and said. What do we do now? How to fix the midfields? It is not just the midfields. If the forwards is clinical, scoring with the chances they have then the result may change. It is the whole team, star players or non star players.
    Regardless of the same coach or new coach, we all agree that we cannot have the same team (players). We either rebuild a lot (eg 27 years or younger) or rebuild by keeping some core players.

    • JB says:

      Hien,

      I agree with your assessment. Cruyff did not provide solutions, but merely pointed out the same issues we’ve identified. But his words reaffirm to me that there is more than one problem.

      One of the biggest problems we saw was the enormous gap between the attacking players and the defensive players, normally space that would be occupied by midfield / linking players.

      I personally think, based in part on their successes in prior tournaments (2008 and 2010), that Sneijder and Van der Vaart consider themselves to be attacking playmakers whose responsibilities primarily include scoring, but do not include linking play and tracking back defensively.

      If you watched Portugal today they really don’t have any playmaking midfielders at all — they have defenders, forwards, and “shuttling” midfielders to transition the ball from the defense to attack.

      Currently, due to team selection, formation, and/or player effort and attitude, Holland does not have workmanlike midfielders who are willing to link play and who have both attacking and defending capabilities — essentially like Schweinsteiger, Xabi Alonso, etc.

      Perhaps Strootman was an option for that role, I don’t know enough about him to say, but that seems to be the position that gave Holland is the most trouble in the build-up. Perhaps Bert expected that type of play to come from Van Bommel, but he couldn’t physically handle it anymore.

      Sneijder and Van der Vaart are great players – two of my favorites – but they are either physically incapable or unwilling to play that type of role anymore. They did well in the roles that they did play, but the role that was truly needed was significantly absent from the team. So it comes down to coaching AND players.

      • Richard says:

        Agree! While we all know the defense is weak, it is also clear that the midfield has serious problems because sneijder, vdv, rvp, von bommel are not athletic and active enough to get the ball in midfield. After the first 20 minutes against portugal and others, we could not get the ball–and if you aren’t getting the ball your midfield is a problem.

        • Demi says:

          >because sneijder, vdv, rvp, von bommel are not athletic and active enough to get the ball in midfield

          exactly. If you can get the ball for 20 mins and afterwards you can no longer get it, that means your players do not have the appropriate physical condition. The rest of the disaster follows naturally.

          If the formation works for 20′ and then it stops working all of a sudden, what does that tell us ?

  82. Bob says:

    Jan, your blog article was excellent! Then Goose added an important addition (as always with Goose) that van Marwyck left the wonderful Dutch reputation for attractive football damaged. He turned beautiful football into a bunch of punks trying to show the world how tough they were.It did not work. van Bommel is no longer capable and his “defensive midfielder” partner is very ordinary, now that he can’t kick other players in the chest.

    One disagreement, regarding Robben. You continue to defend him, and now compare him to Ranaldo (bad spelling, I think). I was an avid fan of Robben before the WC 2010, but no longer. What he became then, and what he is now, is a limited player who has a propensity to choke when his skills are needed. In my view, he should have scored 2 goals in the WC and allowed the Dutch to win going away. Instead, he looked like a high school athlete who did not know how to get around a goalie who was way out of position. He is totally left footed, and has one or two moves, which every competent defender can now defend effectively. He has also lost foot speed, and is selfish in his thinking. Unless Cruyff can get a hold of him and re-train him, I believe his best days are behind him. Which makes me sad, because I really did like and respect Robben a few years ago.

    One final concern, and that is whether the Dutch are actually coachable. In 2010, it seemed to me that Bert just let them do their thing, and somehow it worked out. Now in the Euro, Bert may actually have tried to manage this team, and they simply did not buy into this new attitude. Compare easy going, let it be Bert to Rinus Michels–“the General”–who should have won the WC in ’74 and did win Euro’88 with a hard headed, firm, disciplined approach who let the athletes know who was in charge. If Adrianse can be like that, and pick players to respond to such an attitude, bringing back 4-3-3 and creative football–bring him on! There should be respectful consideration of the ideas and thoughts from players, but no team ever succeeds long term without the understanding that the manager is the boss. I believe that is one of the reasons the Germans are always competitive, even when the talent has diminished.

    Thanks again for your excellent analysis.

  83. Hien says:

    Here is another analysis (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1225243-portugal-vs-netherlands-6-things-we-learned-from-euro-2012-group-b-final-match#/articles/1225243-portugal-vs-netherlands-6-things-we-learned-from-euro-2012-group-b-final-match).
    I also read that the next friendly match is on Aug 15 vs Belgium. After that is WC2014 qualification vs Turkey in September. KNVB needs to assess quickly and the players need to be ready soon (physically and mentally). They have the early vacation already.

    • JB says:

      Hien:

      I agree with much of the analysis in that article as well. Thanks for linking to it.

      In terms of letting BVM go, I just wonder whether it was the players that limited his tactics (in their lack of form, fitness, cohesion, defensive abilities, etc.) or if it was actually his tactics that limited the players (formation, no clear attacking plan, no change in approach when new players were inserted, etc.). Most likely some of both.

  84. bobotoh says:

    Holland must find someone who can make the national team that can play as a team. They have talented footballers who play in top clubs in Europe: AC Milan, Inter Milan, Arsenal, Barcelona, etc…

  85. Tokyojapan says:

    Bert still the coach until world cup… knvb seem support him after this failure… option on hiddink and de boer

  86. Vincent says:

    Rijkaard. I’d love to see him as our coach.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQAVXDJ5xvs&feature=related

    At the end of the video, where he does his best to keep a straight face, just for a second, you see a glimpse of a man who is absolutely heartbroken that his team had lost. He is a man who would undoubtedly pour his heart and soul into the job.

    No objections to Hiddink or Adriaanse, who would be great options, but Rijkaard has the passion that I feel Oranje has really been lacking the last few years.

  87. Long Manuel says:

    Learned about tart cherry juice concentrate from my doctor for my arthritis pain. I began getting some a few day back and my joints feel great. I even got free shipping. Found some great resources about tart cherry juice

  88. Erich says:

    The Oranje will never make it without Michels. And since the man is not available anymore we should get the nearest man to his vision possible to go back to the basics of Dutch voetbal. Who? Cruijff is not willing to do so. Then… who? Pep Guardiola! He learnt it all from Cruijff, and Cruijff learnt it all from Michels. The Spaniard is the last resource if there is something to be done with the Dutch jersey!

    • Ed says:

      Absolute nonsense!
      Guardiolas legacy stems from Rijkaards founding work before him. Pep is no Jesus…he doesn’t work miracles – 8 trophies in 1st season was not just because of him….
      There will NEVER EVER be a non- Dutch coach of Oranje and Holland doesn’t need a foreign manager to be successful.
      If Casillas boot tip didn’t touch Robbens shot then there would be no debate…THAT’S JUST FOOTBALL! One bad EK is not a reason to start over!!!

      • Erich says:

        Do you remember, by any chance, the great Ernst Happel? That 1978 team would make you think twice about the nationality issue.

        And regarding “total football”, well, that’s exactly the one that won that final 2010 match you mention. Isn’t it ironic that Spain played more traditional Dutch voetbal than the Dutch themselves?

        Rijkaard, a national hero that he is, doesn’t sound like the best there is. Again, we can’t go anywhere without Michels’ perspective of football. Since we can’t have him or Cruijff either… who other than Guardiola would be able to make it happen?

    • Oranje Moose Knuckle says:

      Idiot.

  89. Ali-Orange says:

    Dear all,
    I am the fan of Netherlands football since I was kid. It is better to say I am fan of total football. You all have better information about your country and the philosophy behind its football. But let me put it in this way, my opinion is at first Marvik should go, the author mentioned a few factors about the characteristics of our future manager which are:
    1. Authority
    2. Proven experience in getting results
    3. A passion for total football, attacking football
    4. Dutch nationality
    Now on marvik we haven’t seen the 3rd one, besides the result on WC 2010, we did not follow the total football which is really disappoint me. So the question is are you all satisfied with the style of football of Netherlands in 2010WC? Of course not.
    The board of directors honored marvik and gave him this opportunity to be the head coach of the team for next tournament which is EURO2012! Now is time to put him away. He found the problem of our football and he solved it by bringing one more defensive midfield and playing with two of them ( Van bommel, and De jong). But this way we solved our defending problem, but what about the offensive? Before marvik our powerful phase was our offensive line. But marvik did not care about it he add only defensive attribute to the team! Therefore this really cause us problems. You can see that in the qualification of EURO2012 we did extraordinary well, but what did happen in the final stage of EURO?
    It is obvious we cannot defend, defend and defend against giant of footballs we have to have a strategy to reach the goal, which we didnt have! So with honor we have to let him go.
    For future manager we have to find somebody how can take a risk well. We had too risky manager in the past who was Marko van basten and we had also the non-risky one which was marvik. We had to find the manager that can take a risk but rationally. By me I would bring big Gus !
    But if he has some sort of problems, I suggest to bring dennis berkamp! I know he has not have a experience as head coach but I think he is somebody between van basten and marvik which we really need him! He can put some balance between defense and offense! And moreover he is the man who his favorite is working with talented players.
    An the most imprtant think about him is he is from this football he can understand the demand of fans, and he can re-install the total football again in the team!

    BEST REGARDS
    ALI from IRAN

  90. AL says:

    Some good points Ali. Bergkamp might also manage to switch on VanPersie. They are very close. However I don’t see Bergkamp abandoning Ajax. He is doing a great job together with DeBoer and Jonk. What we said about Frank applies to Dennis as well.

  91. Jason says:

    How great would it be if your employer sacked you after the first time you made a mistake?

    How awesome would it be if you were a middle manager and you lost your job because your five cocky employees don’t pull their weight because they are too untouchable.

    Its a damn shame that Bert has had one bad outing and we are all ready to throw him under the bus. Isn’t it human nature to make mistakes and learn from them? how unforgiving are we? Don’t club managers make mistakes day in and day out and manage to not get sacked?

    Are we the Real Madrid or Chelsea of National Football?

    Bert isn’t an idiot. Bert knows football. Bert played politics and lost. I personally don’t think Bert played the squad he totally wanted to but if he didn’t play who he played – he would get lynched. Co Adriannse would be a good replacement when the time comes but we are giving up on Bert awefully quick.

    In the EK Bert tried to play ultra attacking football (because everyone wants him too) and we got caught on the counter every time just like every talented dutch team in the past with a swashbuckling coach.

    In 2010, we played with balance between attack and defence. It wasn’t total football but we got to the final AND almost won (with our lousy defence I might add).

    Total football looks great but doesn’t work. PERIOD. How many times do we have to prove that? And before all you Barca fanboys go on about Barca and Total Football Cruijff this and that, Tiki Taka does not qualify as total football.

    We should all be ashamed of ourselves.

    • overmars says:

      @ Jason. I totally agree. Finally someone with a wise post not repeating what the media has been saying. I’ll have my take on BVM vs the players in a later post. But for now, this post has been the wisest assessment of everything I’ve read on this topic.

      • Oranje Moose Knuckle says:

        ‘Finally someone with a wise post’

        The irony being that every single one of your own posts has consequently been a complete waste of our time then? Right? Are we to assume that? Yes???
        Funnily enough I don’t need to assume it. I have eyes. You’ve done the damage all by yourself.

        ‘I’ll have my take on BVM vs the players in a later post. ‘

        Wow. We are waiting with baited breath. Regale upon us your worldly and expansive footballing knowledge, oh master of the beautiful game. Please, do kindly show us what we’ve all so clearly been missing!

        That silly ‘media’! Ha! What are they paid for? Stupid professionals. They get everything backwards, right? Idiots! They can’t even analyse a football, let alone a match!
        But you offer us so much more! All these facts you provide, backed up by irrefutable statistics and evidence. The perfect diction. The astute assessment. The key issue highlighted in a glowing nutshell. It’s a very well rounded and founded analysis. We are so honoured and grateful.

        Overmars, your football knowledge is a genuine source of amusement to me.
        Your analysis is not just amateur, it’s immature.

        When you finally have something to say, please find a better way of saying it.

        Implying that fellow posters are ignorant or ‘unwise’ is a rather revealing show of poor class.
        Not so nice when that torchlight is shining on YOU, is it? Be careful with your words, lest they return to bite you in the butt.

        Also, when you approach something resembling a rational point, we’ll be the first to let you know. Until then, ignored.

        • Jason says:

          Well hello Mr. Furious. Count down from 10 and repeat your chakras. WOW

          • overmars says:

            @ Jason. Please don’t bother responding to anything this “classy” person has to say. Just ignore. He will disappear sooner or later from this blog- just like others who suddenly appeared, made some noise, then disappeared.

    • Vincent says:

      I like Van Marwijk, and I’m not really angry at him for our loss. But like others have said, most coaches have a shelf life, and Van Marwijk is past his peak ‘use by’ date, if you will.

      My personal reason for thinking it’s better for him to resign isn’t because we lost the EK. It’s because his credibility has been undermined by our performance in the tournament. In such a situation, Van Marwijk will have a very hard time getting a team back to a peak mental condition. You can say we’re ‘starting over’, but the players won’t have the same enthusiasm if you say you’re starting over but keeping the same coach.

      I really like the guy; he did well for us and he’s a humble down-to-earth guy. That’s why I think he should be given the opportunity to resign on his terms, rather than be forced to live with the ignominy of being sacked.

      • Jason says:

        Who told you about a shelf life? Where did you hear about this expiry date. Does Sir Alex or Wenger have a shelf life? Solid logic there.

        • overmars says:

          @ Jason. Notice the pattern in the logic: the keywords being “like others said”. Reminds me of some Oranje Moose Knucklehead, who repeats what everyone else says. You either agree with everyone, or you’re wrong, and will be insulted. That’s the logic.

          • Vincent says:

            Hey, why are you guys being hostile to me? I have not insulted anyone, and I was cordial and respectful in sharing my thoughts.

            And I don’t feel that all coaches have a shelf life; that’s why I said ‘most’. As always, there will be a few very exceptional men. This isn’t based on sporting experience, it’s based purely on principles of man management. Having been in the military as well civilian sectors, I and many of my colleagues, see day in and day out the importance of credibility in being able to command the respect of your subordinates/employees.

            We’ve had some outstanding senior employees lose the respect of their subordinates by being accused of sexual harassment. They were absolved of all wrong doing, but still lost their credibility, simply for being associated with wrong-doing, even if they were innocent. Did Bert do anything horrible? I don’t think so. In fact, I think he did a great job. But fingers are being pointed at him; that alone can cripple someone’s ability to lead, making his job all the more difficult, hampering his ability to succeed. It’s frustrating to be put in a situation beyond your control, but it is what it is.

            And I have to say, I do not mind people disagreeing with me, but I do not appreciate being accused of insulting others when I have not. Why are you insulting me for having an opinion different from yours?

  92. AL says:

    Jason & Overmars,

    I’m sorry but your comparison with an employment situation is pure nonsense. Is it the way you see it ? First time he made a mistake ? You must be joking. Worst tournament in Dutch history counts as one mistake. So ok what would be acceptable, two ? three ? four mistakes … i.e. give him chance till 2020 ?

    Come on guys, be serious. National coaches are assessed on objectives. His objective was to reach the SF. Maybe if he ‘simply’ missed the objective, I would be ready to debate, but he did not ‘simply’ miss the objective. He (and the team of course) made the biggest mess in Dutch football history. 0 points – we have become the joke of this tournament.

    This is no more a question of what KNVB should do. This is all about BVM. Any smart gentleman (and he is a smart gentleman) will simply resign after this results. Period. Most of the smart coaches do just that. I can think of one who didn’t … Domenech … and he became the joke of national coaching. I don’t want Bert to become that … he did a great job in 2010, thanks for that, resign in grace and enter football history as the one who took us to the final, rather than anything else.

    • Jason says:

      BvM is one man. Replace the garbage team at the next team selection. If the team doesn’t perform, its not necessarily the coach. Don’t forget there are other coaches there as sounding boards like Cocu etc – not to mention all the armchair coaches on this blog and in the netherlands. Bert has an uphill job no matter what.

      You cannot compare Bert with Domenech. Seriously, he forecasts results and team selection from the stars

    • Jeff says:

      Al, I totally agree with you. Pure non sense to equate a coach with any other jobs. Bert is not the head of KLM or Rabobank!

    • overmars says:

      Of course, you’re free to disagree in a respectful fashion- unlike others on this blog who disagree disrespectfully, e.g. Oranje Moose Knucklehead.

      Recent reports have indicated serious issues within the Oranje team. I’m not sure if they’re old issues that re-surfaced or they’re new ones. They seem to be related to the players that underperformed the most and were the most disappointing: Van Persie, Afelaay, VDW, Robben, Hunter, VDV, Heitinga. If they were old issues (which I doubt), BVM seem to have successfully kept them in-check previously. However, this time around, it got out of hand. If that’s the case, maybe he should have anticipated them and had a plan to deal with them properly. If they have appeared out of nowhere and took him by surprise, then it would’ve been too late to do anything about them in the middle of the tournament- except for maybe doing what Hiddink did in EC 96 and kick some players out. Either way, the players involved in these theatrics need to be dealt with appropriately by BVM or whomever takes over the coaching responsibility (if any).

      Once again, the coach can do so much in a camp full of players with issues. If it was one or two players, and the coach fails to deal with the issues, then I agree that the coach is weak. But when more than half of your starters start acting like children, there is almost nothing you can do about that in the middle of a tournament. Now that the tournament is over, judgment day should be upon them.

  93. orangesupporter_88 says:

    Back in 2010, I enjoyed seeing the team achieving results, though frustating at times when using pragmatic approach against smaller teams and claiming that such teams park the bus.
    However, since the final game of the EK qualifiers things started to look bad, especially when it came to the number of goals the team conceived. Regardless of matches being friendly or tournament leaking 2 or 3 goals in a game was not a good sign and the coach should have done something about that, but he kept using the same players and same formation. That’s absurd!
    In my opinion, the players at the coach’s disposal should determine the formation he plays, and that sticking to a particular one because that’s the system “WE SHOULD PLAY” is a road to failure.
    The current team lacks quality defenders but has plenty to offer in midfield and attack. Our full-backs did not provide enough support in attack so it was time to abandon using them. I would have liked to see a formation of 3 defenders, 5 in midfield, and 2 in front, which have solved the Huntelaar – Van Persie debate and their backups were abundant (L. De Jong, Van Wolfswinkel, Dost).

    Stek

    Heitinga Vlaar Mathijsen

    De Jong Van Bommel

    Narsingh Sneijder Robben

    Huntelaar Van Persie

    Alas, all but gone and past. I still can’t fathom looking at the group table and see our team with L = 3 and 0 points 🙁

    Whether Van Marwijk stays or not, the current formation cannot be maintained and moreover the rigid and cautious mentality of sticking to ways that worked out results with plenty of good fortune.

    • Alex says:

      I suspect that line up would concede a lot of goals, because 4 out of those 5 back players are fucking slow. Robben doesnt track back so you will get overrun by opponents and torn apart.
      TBH I’m kind of fed up with Heitinga, he may get credit from fans at Everton, but he has not made the step he should have made, he is not a top defender, he plays along. And he makes too many dumb mistakes. I hope Douglas and Pieters can make a good central pairing. Open up room for the left and right back positions to be contested and filled by someone actually eager to perform, unlike V.d.Wiel.

      • orangesupporter_88 says:

        It’s almost the same line up used in the first 2 matches at EK with a slight modification of 3 defenders instead of 4 since our full backs did not do a good job either at defending or attacking (can’t blame Willems too much). The 2 protecting DM will be there and the gap between the 3 lines would be less. Van Persie can play a supporting striker role which he is much better at than a winger. With the new players, I’d like to see Douglas in place of Mathijsen, or Douglas in place of Heitinga and Pieters in place of Mathijsen. In case we’re leading, VD Wiel can be employed as a right winger (he can pull back and at attack at the same time).

  94. Carlos says:

    What a super article – love it when someone else does the thinking for you and you just nod and agree. But I am disinterested in this issue – Just luv watching Holland play and miss not seeing them on the screen NOW !

    Great to see someone from Iran writing here – Welcome Ali !!

    Tomorrow’s Headline will send jitters through the Finacial Markets

    GREECE IS OUT OF THE EUROS !

  95. Jeff says:

    Pieters on Studio Sports last night: “Sneijder is the leader of the team…even though VB is the captain”.
    Seedorf on the failure at the Euro: “the team was not physically or mentally fit”.

    • Alex says:

      I think them not being in form and mentally fit, for a big part gets you an unfit looking squad.

      In that same Studio Sports Pieters admitted he’d have no problem playing left CB as it was his original position. I think we should take out Mathijsen and put in Pieters, use either Emanuelson or Buttner or whatever left back till Willems actually is capable of handling his business. And put the RB spot up for grabs, V.d.Wiel/Bruma/V.Rhijn/Janmaat/Anita, who wants it !?!

      • Alex says:

        When Douglas is eligible and performing I’d post him in there too. And I’d tell V.d.Wiel he needs to focus on being a top RB, on his pro-footballing career instead of other stuff so he improves, or he’ll be dropped.

        Buttner/Emanuelson – Pieters – Douglas – Anita/Bruma/V.Rhijn/V.d.Wiel/Janmaat???

        At least this gets you a sort of steady CB couple that can last for 6 years if needed.

      • Onzie says:

        did he really admit that? you think he will play center back at psv? with willems at left back, not for the world cup, but for 2016 euros, that should pay dividends to have guys who build up rapport with each other for the national team

    • HedonistiX says:

      Pieters on Studio Sports last night: “Sneijder is the leader of the team…even though VB is the captain”.
      —–

      I have asked this on this blog couple times, why is it vdV – who was deemed not good enough as a starter in match 1 – became the captain when he came as a sub and in match 3? It is so weird because to me Sneijder should have been. It’s not a matter of being petty on who becomes the captain but it is very rare that a second captain is a sub (regardless of what system a team plays).

      • Onzie says:

        yes that is very weird, i was wondering the same thing, but i never mentioned it because for me, there was no possible conspiracy theory to settle it besides maybe that he wanted to put van der vaart out there was the leader of the revolt to be the public scrapegoat.

        • Onzie says:

          by the way, i personally feel that nigel de jong should have been captain, but if they want sneijder, thats fine too, if he truly is the leader on the team

      • JB says:

        I think VDV may be the “middle man” between the different “camps” within the team. When you observe the players interacting on the sidelines, in training or in group interviews, VDV seems to be engaging and have a good rapport with the others. That’s my guess as to the rationale for his vice captaincy — that and the 99 caps…

  96. Paul says:

    In hindsight, it makes perfect sense that a lot of the players were not really fit.

    1. Sneijder – barely played for Inter and was injured most of the year.

    2. Robben – was injured most of the year as well

    3. MVB – also missed a lot of AC milan games

    4. Mathijsen – barely played for Malaga towards end of the season

    5. VDW – was out injured for a lot of the season

    6. NDJ – was not a starter with Man City

    7. VDV – has not looked fit all season with Tottenham…clear as day.

    8. Kuyt – barely ever started for Liverpool

    9. Steks – missed alot of time with Roma

    10. Bouma – wtf.

    11. Boula – not sure how much he played, cant be much.

    12. Afellay – barely back from a horrendous injury and played almost no minutes for Barca.

    Therefore, it is clear that the only players that were truly fit were:

    1. Heitinga
    2. RVP
    3. Vlaar
    4. Huntelaar
    5. Willems
    6. Schaars
    7. Narsingh
    8. Strootman
    9. Krul
    10. Vorm
    11. Luuk de Jong

    Conclusion:

    Only 4 of our starting 11 were actually FIT for the match, when we had 7 other fully fit players on the bench…only ONE of which (Huntelaar) saw any action in the Euros.

    We fielded a squad where 7/11 of the players were unfit…and we wonder why we lost??

    Answer: Poor player selection, poor subs= poor coaching.

    • Paul says:

      i get that the players we started are some of our most talented, but it is a calculation of most talented v. most fit, and the coach is supposed to make that calculation.

      Why not put any of these fully fit players in, other than Huntelaar?

      If we were tied v. portgual, why not put in Narsingh to create havoc. His subs included Afellay, Kuyt and VDV, while STrootman, LDJ and Narsingh sat on the bench.

      Conclusion: BVM rates the Eredivisie and the players who play in it very low.

    • richard says:

      You make a strong case. It is easy to see now that BVM made some bad player decisions in this tourney.

  97. HedonistiX says:

    @alex,

    Of the 9 last EC’s, including this one, 7 there was a European Vice-world champions present, only on one of those occassions did that team get through the group stage of the following EC. The rest – including us – all got eliminated in the first round.
    —-

    True but one of them is Greece which was what we in investments considered as “the black swan event”, so I wouldn’t count them. The other teams did falter, because of peaking generations, lack of top player options, etc.

    Maybe I’m biased and I’m expecting too much from the Oranje but how could you not? Only a handful of our core players are old most are closer to “peak” ages 27-30. I actually thought we’d go one step up after being the runner up in 2010 to finally win it all. I still can’t accept the fact that we lost all 3 matches. But moreso, how we lost, not just the fact that we lost. If we had played terribly all 3 x 90 mins, maybe it wouldn’t have been this painful. But we did show some flashes of brilliance in 10-20 mins of those matches. And not pressing when we were down, etc. real tough to deal with.

  98. Samuel Oudegeest says:

    Oranje Boom – OK Beer but a great team name – in fact played for a team with that title. 🙂

    Portugal – Czechs – wow not a shot on goal! Portugal crushed them. And he might be a prima donnna – but what a run for a goal- perfect timing perfect execution – and at full speed. Wow.

    On prima donnas – well of course some of the Oranje players are prima donnas – some of them have been some of the best players in the most popular sport in the world. You got to give them a little ego for that.

    And I totally agree that Oranje was NOT completely dysfunctional in the last tournament – that’s what made it so frustrating. They did put together stretches where they moved the ball and had flashes of brilliance. But they didn’t put it together consistently. And that’s where the logistics and team management seemed to be lacking. There appeared to be obvious solutions to some of the problems – but they weren’t even tried.

    You needed more speed on defense – Emmanuelson.

    You needed mid fielders to run hard, help shut gaps and give some oomph – Narsingh and Strootman.

    You had 2 great strikers – well one is also a good assist guy – so maybe ask him to play a roll that his hero (Bergkamp) played?

    You had a star who was used frequently and effectively as a parttimer by Mourhinho – Robben – so maybe tell him you’ll do the same? Give 60 Robben – just 60.

    etc.

    And for the rest – well maybe it would be kinda nice for the teams that beat Oranje to go all the way to the final.

  99. dutch dream says:

    Yesterday Johan Derksen opened up another can of worms. This time he said Affelay and vdWiel made themselves total outsiders and Affelay even arrogant with the other players, Affelay supposed to be said to someone: For which team do you play then? I play for Barelona.
    VdWiel seems to have been totally insulated and only talked with others while training or preps. Incredible.
    Derksen has many sources and I suspect some of it is true. The more we learn the more rotten the mood seems to have been. There is no way we could have been succesful, no matter what tactics if the players hate eachother and dont want to work for eachother you never gonna win.
    Affelay pfff, howmany minutes did he play for Barca last year?

  100. Eduardo says:

    If what Johan Derksen said is true, we need a coach with team (and egos) management skills, and an assistant who know the players very well. For me Gio is the perfect guy to be the assistant.

    Also, Sneijder should be our captain!

    What are the rumors in Holland? Witch names are under consideration?

    http://www.goal.com/en/news/2898/euro-2012/2012/06/22/3193019/sulking-moaning-fighting-how-the-netherlands-euro-2012

    • richard says:

      I’m shocked to read that Affelay acted arrogantly. He shouldn’t. BVM was rightly hailed for building a lot of team unity in the 2010 WC, and the Dutch then looked together. Of course, losing can fracture team spirit pretty quickly–especially with the Dutch, who seem to have a fragile mentality (as opposed to Germany). I imagine that the Denmark loss increased the tension level quite a bit. Van der Wiel seems too soft and distracted by other stuff to be a big-time player. No coach should tolerate players who aren’t focused on the job at hand.

  101. Bitterballen says:

    Guys, we are missing the point here….

    We are out. It’s over. Screw all the egos and infighting. I read it all too. It won’t help opening up that can of worms.

    Now we have to pick up the pieces and move on. Sneijder apparently tried to galvanize his team during all the chaos and clearly proves he is the captain going forward… I do not even think it’s a question at this point… unless maybe @ JAN wants to dedicate a new thread entitled “Best Oranje Captain going forward”.

    We need Defense now. That should be our primary focus.

    • dutch dream says:

      I beg to differ, all this is important to find out what happened so that we act on it, and reinstall a professional oranje, players AND coaches have failed terribly.

  102. Eduardo says:

    @Bitterballen Yes but we need to identify the problems first, to be able to fix them.

    We are clear that the defense is our main problem, but also, we learn that we may have the best players, but if they can play as a team we will fail again.

    So we need a coach, an assistant, and a captain to do it.

    Also, we need to rebuild our midfield. But in that matter I am not worried because we have a plenty good young players who can do the job: Classie, Maher, Strootman, Anita, Wijnaldum, and the “veterans” Sneijder and Affelay (Vaart will be “old” for next WC)

  103. dutch dream says:

    What a mess. The players fought their petty battles between themselves when they ought to have stand together as one. How could they have been so unprofessional? This was supposed to be their finest hour. The country is still in shock after we find the oranje trainingscamp was more like a kindergarten. How could the huge staff and coaches have accepted this star behaviour, was everybody afraid of our so called stars? If this continues to leak the coming weeks which I think, vMarwijk position will surely be untenable.

    Also I begin to agree with van hanegem that persie, affelay, vd wiel should leave and we must contrinue with more players from eredivisie, young and eager and team players.
    Narsingh and Boerrighter may not be the greatest but they play for the team and to enable other players to score.

    That vMArwijk favored affelay who played 4 or 5 games this season ( and not very good from what I saw) and ignored players who had excellent or good season like Narsingh Boerrighter Urby Buttner Anita even Lens, is unforgivable.

  104. Bitterballen says:

    @ eduardo, yes. i can’t believe vaart won’t retire… he definitely won’t be old per se but he should pass the baton to fresh talent and he will never be selected over sneijder in the #10 position no matter how how hard it is for him to accept that.

    i am excited for classie strootman, maher etc…. in some ways i am disappointed we didn’t use this Euro as a bridge to the WC by integrating young new talent. it’s very hard with the roster we have but bouma, bommel, and one or 2 others should have made way for new legs.

  105. OhYeah says:

    1) Let the “old guys” retire. Van Bommel already has.
    2) Kick Van der Wiel, Van Persie and Afellay off the team.
    3) Make Sneijder captain of the team.
    4) Profit.

  106. Bitterballen says:

    someone posted this on FB:

    “Also in Club Football news: German media ‘reporting’ Pep Guardiola possibly to Bayern starting in 2013. Bayern’s management actively recruiting him as Heynckes’ contract expires and he will not renew.”

    So no Pep to NL

    • ferenc says:

      pep’s manager told to el mundo ans sport.es (the two pro-barca newspapers) that his client won’t consider any offer until march/april and definitely no negotiation with clubs, etc. everything is pure speculation.

  107. J says:

    On the bright side, is VDW good at rapping? If so, maybe he can entertain the team all the way to WC2014

  108. Hien says:

    I do not blame everything on Bert, but most faults are his as he is the coach. Should I sack him with his first mistake? It depends. Does he still have the control of the team? Can he “clean house” as it is necessary? What is his plan going forward in terms of player selection, strategy, WC qualification, expectations (the minimum is to qualify for WC2014 and at least QF if we go with younger players, then to win Euro 2016)? Why do the players look unfit to play 90 min? If they are unfit, did he try everything to make the fitness better? I wonder who idea it was to travel 1300 km (what I read) for the game. If I am a member of KNVB I asked Bert those questions and then draw the conclusion. If we play ugly football and win then in a way, it is less painful then playing ugly football and lose. I’m not saying we need to play like Barca or Spain, but we need to play better attractive attacking football. Can Bert do this? He shows a glimpse of the Sweden qualification game and that was all that we ever saw. It is a bad idea to fire him just for the sake of this failure and we do not have a good candidate to replace him. From what I read, Co Adriaanse and Rijkaard seem to be the top 2 choices. The rest are probably not ready or questionable (past experiences with Oranje or not available due to current contract). Unless Adriaanse and Rijkaard show interest, I think we are stuck with Bert for now and WC 2014 qualification. I hope if Bert stays, he make many changes.

  109. Hien says:

    Does anyone know when KVNB meet with Bert and make decision?

  110. Paul says:

    @ Hien:

    I believe it was stated sometime before july 4th.

  111. Jeff says:

    Paul and Alex, I agree with both of you. Very well said.

  112. Samuel Oudegeest says:

    Wow more random rumors about in fighting! Van P and Affelay were friends and hung out together! OMG!

    Players were really upset that things weren’t working!

    VdV and KJH wanted to start! Wow!

    A backup former bit player things millionare soccer superstars are arrogant. (Hot Tip – they generally are 🙂

    Loner types – spent a lot of time alone!

    Enough about that rubbish – Have to say No Really?

    These guys are all really depressed and upset and were in the run up. This was their last shot – the last realistic shot most of them had to proudly wear Oranje and haul a trophy to the sky. And as it got closer they all saw it slipping away. It wasn’t clicking. They weren’t playing smoothly and they were tired and ticked off.

    And in retrospect all those players panicking were right – it wasn’t working. Can you blame them for trying desperately to do something?

    I can’t.

  113. AL says:

    Derksen is an idiot and we know it. It couldn’t have been that bad. I don’t believe him. He’s just trying to boost sales by creating a subject given that Holland are out and interest has dwindled. Really pathetic.

    • Alex says:

      Regardless of whether or not he is, the information he has is not idiotic. It’s not difficult to imagine tensions building about all of those points if you lose that many games in the run up and at the tournament itself. When a team wins theyre all so called ‘friends’, when they lose its always bitching, so I wouldnt call it farfetched. I find this information more believable than some bullshit rumour about Bouma hitting the doc.

      • AL says:

        It’s not difficult to imagine anything. Reality is another thing.

        • Alex says:

          Reality is 0 points in 3 losses and a more than rough preparation. I don’t know what your reality is, but if you wanna deny that these problems play a big part in performing as a team then go ahead. I would call that foolish though.

  114. JB says:

    Jogi Low must not have Van Marwijk’s player management concerns. He’s started Klose, Schurrle and Reus tonight over Gomez, Muller and Podolski — in a knock-out game.

    We’ll see how that plays out, but all three new starters look pretty good initially…albeit against Greece.

  115. Samuel Oudegeest says:

    Al and Alex – the critical point is I am not entirely unsympathetic with the players being ticked off. And Derksens’ stories do not seem all that surprising.

    You know what – listen to guys talk – there are class and upbringing differences that you can to personality types. These guys are different people raised in a soceity where arguing and assertiveness is encouraged. Of course they argue – it’s like watching a Woody Allen movie and being surprised that people bicker in it.

    But I’d argue that’s not what lost the games. Tired legs and pieces that didn’t fit lost them the games. Plus bad luck in the first game. The first 2 things the coach could have done something about, the 3rd – well stuff happens.

  116. Paul says:

    Lahm with a rocket…1-0

  117. dutch dream says:

    Derksen is usually well informed, but also NOS has said there were many problems, and the coming weeks we will see what really happened in Poland. Its seems clear the mood was poisoned, that the players could not put aside their differences, almost to the point of fighting eacother. If you want to win a cup you need team spirit. We had none. I do think our failure was due to many problems on a personal level in the team. These players were playing for their selves and fighting for their own glory not for our (dutch) glory.

  118. HedonistiX says:

    Jogi – despite his habit of poking his nose – is an awesome tactician/manager!

  119. AL says:

    Pretty obvious that team spirit was weak, but definitely not as bad as Derksen said. Guys this is the same team of two years ago. Does Derksen wants us to believe that suddenly they started hating each other ? It’s a simple thing. Defeat brings out the worse of characters and you’re bound to have issues. That’s always the case with all teams. Anything else is pure concoction to feed sensationalism-driven marketing.

  120. dutch dream says:

    wtf!! 1-1 !!! good old samaras!

  121. Demi says:

    no matter who wins at the end, it is obvious that this Germany is a lot less great than what everyone says. Greeks are defending somewhat comfortably. They give space but no panic in the back.

    Anyhow, Germans are not as great as hyped but … same applies to us (based on performance).

    Hope this euro ends soon, cause I can’t take it anymore 🙁

  122. HedonistiX says:

    Agree, Demi …. the problem (for me, not for the Germans) is they always win the matches they are supposed to win, such as this one!

    I need to get a EURO 2012 detox.

    • Demi says:

      see the bright side, if one can say that. We got a serious serious wake up call … Now, hopefully we will address it.

      Imagine is this fiasco happens at a World Cup. At least now, we know we need to make some serious changes and try for WK2014… This is what I keep telling to myself. We got 2 years, hopefully the issues will be addressed properly and off we go to Brazil.

  123. alaa says:

    england will beat germany in the semifinal after beating italy in the quarter!!! all this german hype and the goals against greece will not serve them at all, u will see how ugly england will beat arrogant germany and get to the final!!

    • Balkan says:

      alaa, I have he same feeling that England may beat Germany if they pass Italy. But I don’t agree that Germans are arrogant in this game. They just play good, disciplined soccer and achieve the result. It has always been like this. If you compare Germany to Portugal the difference in behavior is night and day.

  124. Vikram says:

    If Holland had even 5% of the professionalism, killer instinct and BALLS that Germany has, they could have gone far.

    Just look at Germany. Greece scored the equalizer and they roared back with 3 goals. That is what is called team spirit. They may not be as talented as the prima-donna bastards we have in Oranje but collectively they are head and shoulders above.

    Heck, I am tired of HOPING someday Holland will win something. I might as well supoort Germany from now on. At least i will be assured that my team will not give up without a fight.

  125. Paul says:

    haha detox…4-1 now…they woke up when they needed to

  126. HedonistiX says:

    @Paul,

    Seriously, it is so depressing …. chatted with my German friend yesterday who was rather sympathetic with my misery. I’m expecting some schmuck comments again today after this match …. better be blocking emails/calls/texts from this clown.

  127. JB says:

    ESPN’s commentary just noted that “Germany is the youngest team at EURO 2012 with an average age of 24.6 years. Without Klose, the average age of the squad is 24.1 years.”

    Sounds like Holland better kickstart that youth movement if we want to compete during the next 10 years…

  128. Paul says:

    German defense looks shaky to be honest, must be to give up a goal to the Dutch too…

    4-2, penalty greece

  129. SamNY says:

    so the greece put two past germany…. and oranje put one…. barely.

  130. Samuel Oudegeest says:

    Germany ended up crushing Greece.

    And no I would not say that Oranje was much more talented the Germany.

  131. Paul says:

    why are there so many sam’s on this board?

    You all need to draw straws and then the losers pick new names.

  132. Vincent says:

    @Jason & Overmars: Hey, why are you guys being hostile to me? I have not insulted anyone, and I was cordial and respectful in sharing my thoughts.

    And I don’t feel that all coaches have a shelf life; that’s why I said ‘most’. As always, there will be a few very exceptional men. This isn’t based on sporting experience, it’s based purely on principles of man management. Having been in the military as well civilian sectors, I and many of my colleagues, see day in and day out the importance of credibility in being able to command the respect of your subordinates/employees.

    We’ve had some outstanding senior employees lose the respect of their subordinates by being accused of sexual harassment. They were absolved of all wrong doing, but still lost their credibility, simply for being associated with wrong-doing, even if they were innocent. Did Bert do anything horrible? I don’t think so. In fact, I think he did a great job. But fingers are being pointed at him; that alone can cripple someone’s ability to lead, making his job all the more difficult, hampering his ability to succeed. It’s frustrating to be put in a situation beyond your control, but it is what it is.

    And I have to say, I do not mind people disagreeing with me, but I do not appreciate being accused of insulting others when I have not. Why are you insulting me for having an opinion different from yours?

  133. HedonistiX says:

    You all need to draw straws and then the losers pick new names.
    —-

    May I suggest Sam van der Wiel or Sam van Bommel for the losers?

    🙂

  134. OranjeRules says:

    I am Sam,

    I am Sam,

    Sam I am.

    I do not like that Sam I am!

    Do you like Oranje Eggs and Ham?

    Would you eat them with a Goose?

    Would you eat them with a Moose(knuckle)?

  135. Bitterballen says:

    i wouldn’t mind a coach like otto rehhagel for a few years to teach our players how to defend their half with 11 men…….

    • Demi says:

      Rehagel is too old now but the other guy santos plays the same double zone…

      You know Guus is pushin 65 … I think we should give him a chance.
      In 98 he didn’t believe in it but after Bert taking us to the final , I think we all believe more in it now …

      I was praying all night we pick GH instead of experimenting..

      • Bitterballen says:

        It will be hard to pull him away from Anzi but I am all for it. Do you think he’d be up for it? Def the ideal way to end his football career, no?

        • Demi says:

          To me this is destiny waiting to happen … Hopefully KNVB will spring the $$

          • Bitterballen says:

            at this point it shouldn’t be about the money for him, i know he gets whatever he wants nowadays money wise but part of his motivation should be two hands on a WC trophy…. it’s idealistic but one can dream 🙂

          • Demi says:

            agree. He should lower his demands and KNVB should do the right thing. He has everything except the cup that really matters 🙂 If I was him, I would do it for free… to bad he doesn’t think the same 🙂 🙂 🙂

  136. Onzie says:

    i’m reading that bert van marwijk must prove his relationship with players are fixable

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/holland/9339893/Euro-2012-Holland-coach-Bert-van-Marwijk-must-prove-he-can-repair-relationship-with-key-players-to-avoid-sack.html

    seems like a sorry simple excuse for him my guess on the team after this news and bert still coach would be

    gk:stekelenburg
    def: van der wiel, Douglas, Mathijsen, Pieters
    Def mids; Nigel De Jong, Stijn Schaars
    Off mids: Robben, Sneijder, Afellay
    cf: van persie

    with huntelaar and heitinga, never able to play, van bommel well get emergency called up for when van der vaart is injured, and not much will be tried out

    I would like to see boereighter, Anita, Narsingh, elia, van rhijn, and a few others get playing time. just to see how they are, but i doubt it.

    my guess is jefreyy bruma replaces mathijsen
    Ron vlaar replaces douglas
    Boulahrouz replaces van der wiel
    Willems replaces Pieters
    and such, it gives me a pessimistic outlook if bvm stays coach. But i will support holland no matter how bad or good they play, but come on…. seriously

    • JB says:

      What’s the line about the inmates running the asylum?

      It’s good to hear Sneijder and VDV supporting their coach, but I don’t think this decision should lie with the players. They are also to blame for the team’s poor performance.

      • Onzie says:

        yes, it needs a judge and group of smart football officials to review and come up with a smart decision, it’s not enough to fire him, but also to find the perfect replacement, I think the thing is, we all are overlooking coaches because we see and want big names

        we keep saying, guardiola, hiddink, koeman, everyone else is not experienced, but no one is experienced in national team coaching,

        we have lots of coaches, and lots of good ones, so it’s a matter of finding the right guy.

  137. Hien says:

    Hiddink likes to work for money (Russian club, Russian owner or Russia national team). Don’t waste money to pull him away. I thought Rehhagel is like Bert in 2010, defense and counter attack.
    Interesting comments from Greece player:
    “When we conceded a second goal we had to open up and that cost us,” Salpigidis said. “I hope the Greeks got some encouragement from watching us fighting.”
    “We made it to the last eight and this is very important,” Papastathopoulos said. “The Netherlands didn’t make it and we are talking about a very big country in football terms.”
    Ouch!

    • Demi says:

      I know what you say about Guus. But he is closing to the end of his career and maybe, just maybe he will do it… He should IMO. Guus, if you are readind, do the right thing 🙂

  138. Bitterballen says:

    ouch indeed.. that hurts.

    they still get my vote for knocking portugal out of the Euros on their own turf in 04… that’s truly a “Ha-ha” moment from Nelson of the Simpsons….. 😉

  139. Paul says:

    whats so bizarre is how the greek forward, dont know his name, sprinted down the field and put in a CROSS…which led to the goal…imagine, a forward putting in a cross and not shooting the ball 10 rows up.

  140. Niels says:

    The news out of NL is bad! Apparently, playing football was last on their list. vdWiel was running around with headphones the whole time, producing hip-hop or whatever. Nobody accepted van Bommel as captain/leader. Afellay and Persie were playing their club/season as trump cards. Only Sneijder was thinking about the team. He wanted Robben on the left, Kuyt on the right. Robben was two-faced to the coach. The headline says it all: “Van Marwijk had to deal with tantrums nearly every day”.

    http://www.vi.nl/video/vitv/223236/Van-Marwijk-had-bijna-dagelijks-woedeaanvallen-op-EK.htm

  141. OhYeah says:

    Afellay? What “club season” card? Played like 18 minutes for Barcelona. Whoopty fucking doo.

    What a fucking useless little brat. He’s as bad for the team as Van Persie. Get rid of them, and give Luuk de Jong, Wolfswinkel, Narsingh and some other fresh faces (without an attitude) a chance.

    This is getting ridiculous. I don’t want to hear that name again.

  142. Niels says:

    Afellay was acting like a millionaire, but never had cash on hand when they went out for group outings. Afellay and Persie only interacted amongst themselves and looked down on the others. They are throwing the word ‘nar’ around a lot which means a fool or an idiot. Basically, they were a bunch of clowns.

  143. Niels says:

    Some positive remarks from one of the bright lights on the team (Willems):

    http://www.vi.nl/nieuws/223111/Misschien-mijn-shirtje-ruilen-als-ik-tegen-Seedorf-speel.htm

  144. Ralph says:

    I my book? Pep Guardiola. In football terms he’s half dutch. That would really produce something. That would create complete team with balls.

  145. Hien says:

    Onzie, I feel repair relationship with star player is not enough to turn the situation around.

    • Onzie says:

      i doubt that can be repaired in the first place, and even if it was, his selection problems hinder the team. Whether it’s favoritism, or that he’s blind to the talent around. It shows a paranoid coach who lost control of the team. and can’t trust any other defenders, all i can hope for is that the defenders make moves to teams in stronger leagues and show themselves for van marwijk and others to see.

      I mean kicker rated roel brouwers second best defender in germany, he can’t play for two years? stretch him for what he’s worth? Douglas we all know he’s good, so we have two top defenders, not caring about names. but by performance, it’s good enough.

      lets say van marwijk didn’t like strootman’s performance at psv, thats understandable, some people were divided, but at the same time, stijn schaars was playing like a superstar at sporting lisbon, crosses, one two combinations with wingers like capel, setting up van wolfswinkel with passes. and being great defensively. Even scoring a goal from distance. He can’t play?

      its like where is the trust in the selections? It’s hard to understand where he’s coming from. If a guy is a cancer, why keep them. He had problems with van persie before. and hollands dirty little secret is that we are loaded in midfield, on the wings, and even talented defenders, but there is a gap at striker

      a big gap between huntelaar and van persie, are way above dost, l. de jong, van wolfswinkel. so how does he salvage the mess between RVP and KJH i don’t know,

      it’s just confusing, i think it’s easier to replace the coach, and hope his effect on the team is enough to change the culture. and start winning again.

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