We might not always win the trophy (actually, we hardly ever do) but we usually win the blame game after the tournament. Whether it was 1980 Euros, with the AZ players trying to break the Ajax dominance, the 1990 WC, with Beenhakker pushed onto the squad instead of Cruyff, the 1996Euros with Davids/Hiddink or the Van Gaal debacle in 2002…

According to the well informed media, there were again two camps in the squad. Camp Sneijder (Robben, Vaart, De Jong, Huntelaar, Van der Wiel, Heitinga and the little big man) versus Camp Van Persie (Boulah, Afellay, Van Bommel, Van Persie himself). The Sneijder camp wanted all out Ajax-like attack. Van Persie wanted WC2010 style tactics. The result? Half the team played upfront, half the team pushed their behinds in their own box.

It’s not clear where Willems stood, but footage shows there were times he wasn’t even aware himself…

The tension increased and at a certain point someone in the staff told Huntelaar: “And now you shut our face or we exit you from the players’ hotel!”.

The post match interviews clearly demonstrated that some players felt they weren’t enabled to play their normal game. In particular Greg van der Wiel had tears in eyes of anger when he said this team didn’t allow him to play to his strengths and that his relationship with Oranje was disastrous.

Arjen Robben concurred “things had happened” while Van der Vaart said he “didn’t think it was appropriate to mention the reasons for this drama right now”…

And to make matters worse! The so-called Oranje fans at Schiphol Airport this time around didn’t show up as Orange Indian chiefs or dressed in traditional frocks. Instead they came in anger to lynch a couple of players and a coach. Van Persie was yelled at “arsehole!” while all the players were made out as “money wolves”…

Can you imagine?

This is unimaginable for me… You support your team through thick and thin. Sometimes they grab silver, sometimes it all goes to pieces. That is when they need the support most.

If you want these lads (or others) to bounce back, you need to support them.

People have made mistakes ( players, coach, KNVB) but life goes on and the key thing is to take those mistakes and learn and adapt.

Here, we will follow the homecoming of the Oranje team for a bit and will then move on to analysis. What went wrong? What would be a better strategy? What options do we have? Which players will be key?

While we also follow the rest of the tournament.

And look out for the new season’s warm ups…

Exciting times ahead!!

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113 responses to “Oranje wins the blame game…”

  1. alaa says:

    for now, I only wish to go online in the coming and the frist thing i read is that van marwijk resigned!!!!

    this guy has been with the team for a wc and euro and now it is time for change, and hopefully they can bring one of the carismatic figures instead of him!

    we need a new view, he cant rebuild this team, it has to be done by someone who was monitoring what was going on and has a good idea of whom to call and whom to leave home, and what are the new options we have from the new generation!

    • Kasia says:

      This is so hard for us to understand what has happened. I was outside of the hotel in Krakow, when they arrived from Portugal game… They looked destroyed. Every single one of them. Sneijder looked scared when he saw all the fans. Dirk Kuyt’s head was down – that does not happen!!! And I think it is really easy for anyone to turn around and say it was BVM’s fault or RVP’s fault or whatever. It is really easy for media to start Ajax vs the rest war… I think BVM made the right decision by sticking with RVP – he suited better the rest of the team. But the truth is that whatever what u think if u support the team u support them!!!!

  2. alaa says:

    the only team in the tounament where u hear about two camps of players!!!!
    u would expect to hear something like this in the spanish team with all the hatred between barca and real madrid players, added to that even from a political point of view: catalunya vs madrid! but still those spanish guys leave all of this stuff behind their backs and play as a team, and what a team, the real collective total football where every player gives his heart on the field!!!

  3. nAD says:

    I think the whole camp divide thing is bullshit. All the Media did is group a bunch of Ajax players against non ajax players.

    So easy to make up.

  4. Jeff says:

    Alaa, I agree with you. I think the real problem is that this time Bert had an unbalanced team of coaches. His association with De Boer was phenomenal. Wes was asked that very question by Jack van Gelder, but of course Wes denied that De Boer played a major role but now we know he did. Just look at how he handled Ajax’s season last year compared to Cocu. On Studio Sports they kept showing the sidelines and both Cocu and Faber were totally mute. Bert did all the shouting and he was the only one animated. Now contrast that to WC 2010 and you will see De Boer getting up, gesturing, whistling, screaming while Bert is calm analyzing the game. What a huge difference. After another day of reflection, I think Bert has to go. On studio sports tonight there was a lot of enthusiasm for Koeman. I tend to think he is good at getting teams ready for big events. The consensus is that he is an ideal national team coach, as opposed to a club coach. He has another benefit, he played with Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord. So he would be impartial. Just a thought. By the way he is the favorite in the polls just ahead of De Boer.

    • Mohamed says:

      that’s true , Jeff .
      i think there are 3 major differences between Oranje 2012 and Oranje 2010 .

      1- De boer
      2- Gio
      3- Kuyt

      those 3 played a major role in reaching the WC final with our pathetic defense .

    • Tjeerd says:

      Good point on Koeman. I was thinking of Frank deBoer, but the hatred Ajax, in some circles, may disqualify him at this point.

  5. nAD says:

    Huntelaar is a little bitch. He needs to shut up to. He had 90 minutes against Portugal, 45 against Germany, and a big chance against Denmark yet he did nothing.

    The way he and his fans were talking it was like he was the saviour and answer to all the problems. In reality Huntelaar is a flat track bully. Can only perform against small sides.

    In all of his career he has only scored against Milan for Ajax and England for Holland. Thats all he’s ever done against big teams.

    • Niels says:

      Maybe it would help if somebody on the wing crossed the ball? What did van Persie do that was so great this tournament? They both suffered because there was no help from the wingers.

  6. dutch dream says:

    van Persies hair looks a lot greyer after this euro. He looks 35 already.

  7. Jan says:

    Here is the clip where Robben allegedly yells “Shut up, man” (Hou je bek man!).

    It’s in Dutch, obviously, but around the 36second mark I hear Robben yell something else: “Ga toch weg man”. Which is still not something to yell to your coach, but it’s a bit more polite. More like “Knock it off man”.

    http://www.nrc.nl/sport/2012/06/18/luister-zelf-robben-schreeuwt-naar-van-marwijk-hou-je-bek-man/

  8. Ryan X says:

    Great posting and interesting read and as 99% of the time Jan I agree with what you’re saying here, you must always support your team no matter what. Hey, I just washed my Oranje shirts (sweating from the confusion, frustration, brief happiness and perpetual belief.

    Exciting times to come indeed and hate saying it so soon, but we have to much to look forward to, friendlies qualifiers and we start all over again. It’s tough to swallow but it’s life and it seems to be our history, but we will not go into the wilderness; unfortunately the timing and luck weren’t fully in our favor.

    Hup Netherlands Hup! Aderlaten Oranje!

  9. goldstone says:

    Sad. It really is a Dutch tragedy.

    David Winner will spell this all out for us in due time ;), but it seems like a catharsis to me.

    The old will be burned away, one way or another. Some will survive the crucible, some not. KNVB and Cruyff really need to rise to the occasion, however they feel about each other. No one can pretend this isn’t a historic crisis for voetball.

    We were seen as talented butchers in 2010. Losers in 2012.

    Our redemption will come, with blood, sweat and tears.

    Please let 2014 be a new day for oranje!

  10. SamDC says:

    Divided into two camps. Wow! It was kinda obvious on the field. No chemistry, no team work, no wonder we lost all three games.

    The group that wanted to play all out attack, did they forget who is defending at the back? I think they got their chance in the Portugal game. At one point, we were defending with 3 players when Willems was taken out. If it wasn’t for luck and Steks’ saves, we would have gone out 5-1 or something. It would have been a disaster of unimaginable magnitude.

    You don’t split into two camps once you are in a tournament. All these things should have been settled prior to the Denmark game. If BVM let this happen, he is ultimately responsible. He lost the plot. He should not have selected these players in the first place. What is the point of bringing a team that is fractured. Maybe he should have given Team Sneijder a couple of games where they could play the way the wanted and show how effective they could be.

    In the end, we have a coach because he is responsible for the game plan. If players don’t believe in it, they should not be selected or the coach should have been replaced.

    This is truly unacceptable.

  11. Van Banger says:

    When you watch that clip of BvM you can see the frustration on his face, obviously he did not have the players wanting to play for HIM! hence they didnt play for each other. I don’t think i have ever felt so passionate about my home team The Oranje! Im no expert but we must find defenders before our next WC2014 game or we will struggle, even playing at a low level you must have confidence in your defence, especially when you make an error up the pitch, you are relying on the defenders to fix your mistakes, the current Dutch defenders aren’t doing that!

  12. Onzie says:

    if ronaldo koeman is the next coach, then i think the KNVB is having a Feyenoord bias problem. Because wasn’t Van marwijk also feyenoord coach.

    i’d like to hear if the rumour is true guus hiddink got fired or not, because i believe he can truly get the team performing great.

    or gertjan verbeek, but apparently he’s really bad with people.

    sad they had all those people booing at the airport. but hey thats life.

    • overmars says:

      Please NOT Ronald Koeman. He is a shitty coach with a shitty attitude. The team will inherit the bipolar personality of such coach. If you’re going to replace BVM, then you must find someone better, not worse. At this point, I don’t think there are any better alternatives.

  13. overmars says:

    Oh boy. As I said in my previous post, I blame the players more than BVM. I’d say BVM takes 20% of the blame at the most and the players take the rest. My only negative take on BVM is his lack of experimentation and late substitutions. Yet, looking back, I think he realized that he had to utilize his best talent and he did. People kept asking for VDV and Elia in the World Cup and for Kuyt and De Jong to be subbed out. We saw what disaster these substitutions lead to against Spain. VDV is an average player with some flashes ever now and then. He is worse than each and every Spanish player. People kept asking for Hunter to play more- as if he is Messi or the Messiah. BVM knew how technically limited Hunter is and he realized that he is playing in the group of death. If we were playing San Marino, then Hunter would have started all games. But to silence all the critics, BVM played Hunter half a game against Germany and the full game against Portugal. We saw what he can do on the big stage (I still remember his brilliance against Brazil in his one-on-one with the keeper in the WC). His 1st chance against Portugal was in the 86th minute. Some may argue that Hunter didn’t get the service he needed. Bullshit. Great players- and I repeat GREAT players, can create their chance: Kluivert, Bergkamp, RVN still scored with little or no help sometimes. Hunter is just a glorified poacher who performs well against San Marino type of teams.

    Oranje players are a bunch of punks with egos way bigger than their talent. Can you tell me a single team in the Euros with such problem? None. Is it because their coaches are better than BVM? No. It is because they have an established culture of how players need to behave. Oranje always had such a nasty culture with players thinking they are gods. BVM did an amazing job to keep the egos in-check in WC 2010. If you recall, there were a few incidents here and there, but for the most part he took care of all the problems. In this tournaments, the players thought they were bigger than life. Probably reaching the WC final have blinded them into thinking that they really are something, while they are nothing but a group of talented INDIVIDUAL punks. I am a true believe that BVM over-achieved with this team in the WC. His tactics, couple with a bit of luck a few times, allowed this team to get to the final. He realized that he doesn’t have a dominant team- like Oranje 1998 or 2000. So, he played a pragmatic cautious approach. An approach that allowed Italy to win the WC 2006, Inter to win CL in 2010, and Chelsea in 2012. In comparison, Oranje 1998 and 2000 were under-achievers. They had the best talent all over the field: goal keeper, defense, midfield, and attack. It was the coach that didn’t instill the believe in the players that they can win the damn tournament (1998), and the coach who didn’t bother to train his players on taking penalty kicks (2000). When you miss 5 penalties in 1 game it is beyond bad luck.

    No player has the right to talk to the coach like Robben does. If that would happen in another national team, the player would be banned. Robben is one of the most over-rated players on this team. He has so much baggage and drama. We’d be better of without him.

    It is a shame to witness such behavior from these players. Just compare and contrast this to the German or Spanish teams. The German leading goal scorer (Klose) was on the bench without opening his mouth nor complaining. Whenever a Spanish player is subbed out, he is all smiles shaking hands with the player who is coming on for him. The ironic thing is that both teams have REAL stars who play in better teams than oranje and who have achieved what oranje players will never dream of. However, for some reason, oranje players think that they are the shit, while in fact they are shit.

    I’d hate to see BVM go because in my opinion he is the BEST coach in oranje history for the simple fact that he over-achieved with this team. Unfortunately, he couldn’t do his magic this time around. I don’t think Oranje players deserve a great coach like BVM. They deserve a shitty coach like Advocaat or Van Gaal who’d have better talent yet achieve nothing with such talent.

    • Onzie says:

      this is Bert van Marwijk’s fault, this was his only strength, that he could prevent infighting, and get players to play with one unified vision.

      in truth, the purists might complain about 2 defensive midfielders, but thats a lie, Spain and Germany both play 4-2-3-1, no problem. The real issue is in his selections. Van Bommel just didn’t have it anymore. Mathijsen is losing it, slowly. He needed a left back, and a replacement right back. He picks Bouma and Vlaar. it’s ridiculous. for a while now, after the 4-0, and 5-3 against hungary, proof was there that de jong could hold it down as lone defensive midfield.

      at this stage, even if it wasn’t BVM’s fault, with the way the players have been acting up, and disrespecting him, he can’t stay, and i don’t believe there are no better options, Holland has plenty of champion options,

    • Demi says:

      lots of good points, but the same issues come up in other teams/countries as well. They usually surface more during disasters, like this one. But they happen elsewhere as well.

      One big factor, aside from all the things you mentioned, is that some of our key leaders/players aged a lot and at the same time (Joris/Mark/Dirk)… That didn’t help. And important creative players Wes/Arjen had a so-so year.

      Obviously the players are a lot more responsible. After all, this is big collective failure there are 11 players and 1 coach. So, it makes sense the 11 to have a bigger part in the failure than the one. Unfortunately it is easier to change the 1 🙂

      Anyhow, lots of unfortunate things happened at the same time. BvM was unlucky, this whole thing start disintegrating recently so it manifested the symptoms too late. If the game with Sweden was Oct 2010, things could be much different now.

      As per the 2 camps, or the 3 camps, or the 4 camps, what difference does it make that they want to play differently? They all SUCKED …

      • Onzie says:

        but this is a national team, it’s easier to fix the 11, whereas a club team would have to sell off bad players and buy the good ones, national teams like holland are lucky to have free transfers of awesome players.

        I mean we gonna get douglas for mathijsen probably thats 1 change, Erik Pieters will be healthy again and starting at left back thats 2, Van Bommel will retire, Probably Strootman takes a place next to him thats 3, afellay failed at winger, Ola John, or narsingh even elia might make a radical improvement thats 4. We have van Persie and Huntelaar fighting at center forward, What happens if van wolfswinkel, or bas dost, prove better in a different league, and make a big move to say manchester united, or l. de jong at lvierpool athats 5.

        I got at least 5 changes that can be made, being conservative. and still at a reach depending on who the coach is. Because van der wiel can still prove himself. Don’t know about heitinga, but i guess eventually he will be replaced but by who? i doubt all 6-10 of the top central defensive prospects will fail.

        • Demi says:

          most of the changes should happen at the defense. Douglas and Pieters should put some order there. Moving Erik as CB next to Douglas will fix 50% of all the issues.

          Heitinga can stay and help. I don’t know about Wiel …We need two good backs, left and right. Boula can help for a while. We can try a few talents and see which one can become a real pro.

          Stroot will replace Mark but I have a feeling that the bossing Mark was capable of will be missed , maybe forever. Mark’s getting older/absence is hard to replace. Very hard.

          In the front we don’t need too many replacements, if the back end improves the bickering will go away and hopefully we will function again.

          I am proposing even fewer changes, as long as we fix the defense everything else should follow.

          But the climate is heavy now and if the players are split, I think KNVB will change the coach. I am not saying I agree here. But this is the easiest choice for KNVB …

          No matter what happens to the coach issue, our creative players need to find form/psychology again. Wes/Arjen etc…

          I was watching some 2010 footage today and man we were so disciplined and dominant at all times. Even the defense 🙂

    • Gio says:

      @Overmars, I think Jan’s recent blog goes hand-in-hand with your previous comments, you were spot on.
      Can I just add that I am currently living in Spain and know too well the rivalry between the Barcelona and the R.Madrid contingents. Besides this rivalry is a more dangerous one because it involves politics (Catalonia considers itself to be an independent state separate to Spain). Nevertheless, those ideological/political views are brushed aside for the sake of the national team, Spain. However I doubt you will ever see Xavi, Pique or Puyol singing Spain’s national anthem or celebrating with the national flag.
      Politics aside, my point is they are/were able to minimize their differences for the sake of forming a team that we all know won 2 important tournaments. If this Dutch team weren’t able to resolve their differences because of ego (let me repeat that) ego then its a real shame. You compare ego and politics and its like comparing the sun and the moon. So if all this is true and 100% confirmed then Holland wasn’t playing against Denmark, Germany and Portugal they were playing against themselves and shooting themselves in the foot.
      As I’ve said before, I really suspected something was going on between Robben – Van Persie.
      One final note on Van Marwijk, He has to share part of the blame to. Because as Boss, you have to exercise authority and leadership even if their were 2 camps with their humongous egos, Van Marwijk should have minimized this in the interest of the team. This shows that the soldiers weren’t afraid of their General…

  14. Ed says:

    We all expected more from this team. Noone walks away unscathed after this.

    The talent is still there and so is the attitude and arrogance.

    BVM did well to hold it all together at WK2010 but I think Sneijders goals and Robbens electric form patched up the cracks that started to show even 2 years ago.

    It looks like it was brooding for quite some time. Very sad to see…

  15. Miguel Rosado says:

    I feel so sorry for Bert. After watching that clip I know he felt in his heart the sadness we now all feel, the frustration. I even can’t imagine how it feels to know that you are coaching some of the best players of the world but also a bunch of stupid egotistical players.

    Of course there was something wrong within the group.

    I really like Bert he is a good coach (with bad decisions) but with him we reached the WC final and if the players hadn’t been so selfish well maybe we could’ve done much better.

    Yes, the best is for Bert to leave but all I want to say is that he is a great man, a real Dutch fan like all of us and I thank him for the WC. He gave Dutch football a reason to dream again. So if he leaves it’s good but if he stays maybe he has 2 years to rebuild our team and cut some negative egos from the squad.

  16. Miguel Rosado says:

    We need a new defence.

    Bruma, Willems, Aanholt, Blind, Anita, Douglas, Maduro, etc…We need a F. de Boer type someone who can command the team from the back!!! someone our midfielders can rely on. Bruma is a hot prospect for the new #4 of our team I think he has what it takes just give him some games.

    Also we need new holding midfielders. I miss Davids 😛

    • Onzie says:

      bruma was tried against sweden and it was a horror show, i haven’t seen him perform well enough for hamburg yet.

      I think right away Maduro and douglas can be good. Maduro is gonna play for sevilla, and if he’s starting, that will be good for holland, he will play regularly in a league that is tactically very smart (spain) and he will defend the likes of ronaldo, messi, santi cazorla, and his ex-teamates at valencia, along with athletico madrid and bilbao players. It’s a great move

  17. Paul says:

    Wow…and here we go again, simply proving all the media types right again, classic dutch infighting.

    What a joke. What right do these players have to infight. They represent their country, 16 million, proud, tolerant, industrious and joyous people. And this group of millionaires couldnt get a long for a month?

    The guys have the best, most dedicated and well behavior fan base in the world! I am disgusted by this team.

    Its obvious either RVP or sneijder need to go, and the clear answer is RVP…he doesnt perform. The team will be just fine without him. If i remember correctly, the team does very well without Robben and RVP…considering that they were always injured!!!!!

    Maybe the problem is that we finally had everyone truly healthy and it still didnt work…idk.

    And yes, the coach is supposed to kick some ass and get everyone in line. Cocu did just sit there the entire time.

    And are you kidding me? A feyenoord/Ajax split…come onnn already…its 2012, move on! I cant believe the NT is still split along those lines.

    This makes me so angry now i may not give a fuck about these guys for a while. MAybe they get paid too much. DEtached from reality. Dont realize who they represent.

    Fuck them all.

    • overmars says:

      @ Paul. I agree with your last statement. F*** them all. I sympathize with BVM. He thought he had a real team like Spain or Germany. He tried his best to bring the best out of this bunch of over-paid millionaires. He succeeded in the world cup. But suddenly the team got over-hyped and thought they were really something bigger than what they really are. I bet you any other coach wouldn’t have achieved more than a quarter final with this bunch of prima donna losers. For all those who criticize BVM I say this: Bert giveth, Bert taketh away.

    • Jan says:

      I think you’re overreacting. In any team that loses big, these things happen. Mostly you never find out. In Holland it will come out as the media love it and make it bigger….

      • Mohamed says:

        It happend with france in thw world cup , and such things destroys the team no matter what talent its players have .

        However , i think the KNVB should react to this with the players .
        I kinda feel sorry for Marwijk to be honest .

  18. Matias says:

    Hi Jan/guys! This is actually my second post after the intro thread*, but I’ve been following the site closely.

    However, last weekend, I was out of town and driving back from Lappland (Its like 1000km cross country, with a swollen and blood red eye, from a contact-lens mishap and on the radio Oranje was loosing to Portugal. Wasn’t a very bright moment in any way.

    I’ve had a few day the process this and I’ve decided that despite this, I’m not throwing this bizarre loyalty of mine away. After the last WC, I told my self to wait for the Euros, and they came.. and now they are gone (for Oranje, still great football as entertainment, but its not the same, you know).

    In intro I wrote “difficulties make only make love stronger” and I’m sticking by this principle. We’ll bounce back. I’m thinking about finally visiting the Netherlands for a qualifier and see the team, the city and the country live for the first time. Or at least buy a replica..maybe Willems..:-)

    We had a good line-up in the sense we had good players, but the glue that would have made them into a team, and a winning one at that was missing. Its like having the best bricks in the world, but a paste that won’t hold, it won’t make a wall or carry a house…

    We’ll rebuild, get back up again, and fight for a European or World Championship with our heads held up. A true Champion is a one that can get up even after a smashing defeat and Oranje….JE BENT EEN WARE KAMPION!

    Forever Orange
    Matias/Tampere/Finland

    *http://dutchsoccersite.org/lets-get-to-know-one-another/#comment-252

  19. Miguel Rosado says:

    Maybe a possibility for our immediate XI?

    —————Stekelenburg————–

    —-Nigel—Maduro—-Douglas—Pieters–

    —-Sneijder—Strootman—Vaart———

    ——Robben—-Huntelaar—Afellay——

    *I think leaving all the big names out is too hard, we’ve to start changing our defence and also our midfield.

    Classie, Leroy, Wijnaldum, Wolfswinkel, Willems, Anita, Douglas….well we have a good future.

  20. Arturi says:

    Did the fans even know the term “through thick and thin”?
    Tsk tsk

  21. AL says:

    The two groups issue is plain bullshit. It’s true that there might have been disagreements but obviously we all know how Dutch media blow such things outrageously out of proportion. So i wouldn’t focus on this. And i’m sure that if Spain are eliminated early, the internal issues become very important for the media. It’s always the same – when you win evertyhing is fine, when you lose we start the blame game.

    • Ed says:

      The spaniards were one goal away from being eliminated. They scored late on when if it was the other way around both WK finalists would have gone home…

  22. Simon says:

    I think proper fans do support the team through thick and thin. But I think it is understandable that Oranje fans are frustrated and venting some annoyance at the players and/or coaching staff because we have enough fantastic players to have performed so much better. And we want to know why they didn’t.

    Is it because the poor guys don’t get on ?
    Is it because the players won’t listen to the coach ?
    Is it because Bert didn’t bring on enough young guys since 2010 ?

    We have a huge amount of talent coming through so I shouldn’t be worried about the future. I don’t understand how horrible players like Ronaldo and Nani can get their act together for Portugal, but somebody like RvP has issues with Holland. If we don’t sort this out then despite the talent we may spend another decade in oblivion. As I explained to my son, not qualifying for ’82, ’84, and ’86 was very traumatising for me. I don’t want him to go through the same thing……………!!

    • Ed says:

      its because Sneijder carried the team in 2010.

      We’ve had goal scoring issues for 2 or 3 years now.

      Our star CF scored 1 goal all tournament – both this one and the WK. We need to rediscover the swashbuckling attack that we are famous for.

      Now opponents see us as easy prey on the counter attack. They wait out the possession game and with a misfiring forward line they have no real issues in defence.

      Either the system changes or RvP must be benched. Give another striker the chance – whether its old guard (KJH) or new guard (Wolfswinkel/Dost) we need to find a new Van Nistelrooij and soon!

      Chances in international football are rare but we create crazy amounts of them that are never finished. I pity Sneijder – he is a once in a generation midfielder that will go without a major international trophy – not because he doesnt score or doesnt create opportunity for others but because he is destined to have to do it all himself.

      Once we have a firing forward line opponents will be scared of overcommitting on the counter and the mentality of both Oranje and its opponents will change.

      The WK2014 will be Sneijders last chance to get the prize he most dearly covets and i hope that Oranje can provide the supporting cast. He cant do it all himself – he was marked out of contention in the WK final but still created Robbens chance. Wesley is truely one of the great Dutch footballers.

  23. AL says:

    @Simon,

    I can’t see a repeat of the chasm between 1978 and 1988 … i don’t remember very well but it seems that the resources during the transition were very weak. So after the golden seventies generation, and while we were building the eighties generation (VanBasten, Gullit, Rijkaard, Wouters, et al) there was not enough talent to bridge the gap and it resulted in the worst decade for Dutch football (even though we were very unlucky not to qualify at least in one occassion).

    Eventually we did’nt have the same problem to bridge the gap between the eighties generation and the nineties generation (Bergkamp, Davids, Seedorf, DeBoer, Overmars, etc.) and eventually to bridge the gap between the nineties gen and the current one. There was only one exception in fact … the failure to qualify for 2002 WC. We are realising now that the gaps between generations are getting shorter and this is because there are more talented players than ever … this makes the different generations mix up in the same teams. For example next WC we would probably see a mix of 29-31 years old players from the ‘old’ generation like Robben, Van Persie with 20-22 years old new generation players. This all shows that we are developing top talent at a faster rate than before.

  24. AL says:

    In fact we can summon the generations’ performances as follows:

    1970s (Cruyff, Neskeens, Krol, Rep, et.al)
    Peak: WC74, EC76 & WC78
    Flop: EC80

    1980s (VanBasten, Gullit, Rijkaard, Koeman, et.al)
    Peak: EC88 & EC92
    Flop: WC90

    1990s (Bergkamp, Kluivert, DeBoer, Overmars, Davids, et.al)
    Peak: WC98 & EC2000
    Flop: EC96 & WC2002

    2000s (Robben, VanPersie, Sneijder, VanBommel, et.al)
    Peak: WC2010
    Flop: EC2012 & WC2006

    I rate them as follows in order of peak performances:

    1. 70s
    2. 90s
    3. 80s (yes even though they won, 90s team was better)
    4. current

    • Ed says:

      Van Basten, Gullit, Rijkaard, Koeman vs Bergkamp, Kluivert, De Boer, Davids, Overmars

      In 1988 Van Basten and Co were the 3 best players in europe (1,2 and3). San Marco and Gullit were Ballon D’Or winners (1987,1988,1989,1992)

      The best the 90’s produced was Bergkamp in 2nd place in 1993.

      The 90’s were great but the fluidity of Oranje and the Dutch AC Milan were a sight to behold.

      Ajax ’95 and ’96 were great sides but would have been swept aside by Sacchi’s Dutch trio. The amount of times i saw Rijkaard bring the ball out of defence to Gullit who would find Van Basten and then score a beautiful goal – it was like the Chicago Bulls and Michael Jordan – you could see it happening but opponents could do nothing to stop it.

      Cruyff will always be the great innovator and along with Michels the father of Total Football but Marco, Ruud and Frank will be the ones that perfected it. (At least with Milan they did….)

      1990 was a great tragedy…..

      It was a shame that Marco was already seriously injured at the point that Bergkamp started to make his mark. What a team that would have been – Marco in his prime supported by Bergkamp, Gullit and Rijkaard and Koeman. Unstoppable…..

      • AL says:

        Yes, given the talent at our disposal, WC1990 is probably the greatest flop in Dutch football history … even more than this summer because the talent available was simply amazing. The current squad is an amateur outfit compared to that one. In fact it was the only WC that I remember where Holland were clear favourites by bookmakers from the outset. It was a fantastic mix of the eighties breed in their prime with guys like Bergkamp from the nineties generation.

  25. Simon says:

    Al ~ I hope you’re right. But it is so easy to screw up a couple of qualifiers and before you know it you miss a major tournament. That is why you have to continuously blood new young players.

    I did find it galling watching Spain. They have taken our style. It could have been Oranje. But now we have to listen to all the pundits fawning over the Spanish AND critising Holland for ugly disjointed play. It’s like a parallel Universe. And not one I like!

  26. Simon says:

    ** criticising

  27. AL says:

    yeah i have those same feelings whenever i see Spain play. Ironically we praise this generation for their peak being the WC2010 but it was in that final match when Holland gave the sceptre of offensive ball possession football to Spain. We just knew that they have become better than us in our game and we simply chose to bow the head and play defensively trying to destroy their game. Of course this proved to be nonetheless successful and we missed the cup by an inch … but that’s another story.

  28. Frank says:

    The way many of you Oranje fans treat RvP is a disgrace. Personally as an Arsenal supporter I would rather he never played for Oranje again. Come home, Robin. They don’t want you over there. Let them stew in their own juices

    • Jan says:

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Robin now decides to stay with the Gunners. He’s comfortable there… They respect him.

    • Ed says:

      Its not a question of skill. He is probably the most technically gifted footballer in the Oranje squad – he’s just not CF material.

      He is perfect for Arsenal i will never argue that but for Holland he is not the right man. Its either him or Wesley as the playmaker – and Wes is a once in a generation midfielder. He does not have the same kind of chemistry as Xavi and Iniesta – its a different mentality….

      The fragility he has in front of goal is not something the Dutch have been used to seeing from their centre forwards.

      Rep, Rensenbrink, Van Basten, Kluivert, Van Nistelrooij – these were assured CF’s and made the position their own. RvP is not like that for Oranje – Hunterlaar is that type of player but unfortunately not given the time in that role to make it his own – I have high hopes that Wolfswinkel will be the next in line.

      RvP must realise that he was given his chance and now he must pass on the baton to someone else. Maybe he can be the supersub that Oranje needs but as a starter he has failed to live up to expectation.

  29. Sandeep says:

    @overmars….i like everything that you said…i think this is the same reaction whihc i have…too much ego and not enough talent to justify it…i remeber reading somehwere that vdv was telling media that german teams lack skill..WTF…and then after the game you eat your own shit….
    but one thing was really unexplainbale and i wish when KNVB finally talks to these players shoud demand an answer for ” why were they not passioante and seem to just play the game withouht exerting pressure or tempo”. …they never looked like they wanted to win…i think this was the biggest thing..
    robben sings with his teeth clinched and then dont track back…no body of those forwards track back…
    its not BVM fault..anybody who will coach ths team with this bunch of disillusioned players and faulty defence would fall flat…

    • overmars says:

      @ Sandeep. I’m glad that you also saw the same things I saw. No matter what BVM would have done, this group prima donnas was destined for failure- because they chose to do so. BVM did what every one asked for: bench Kuyt, bench MVB, play Hunter, play Van Persie as #10, play Afelaay, play VDV, and they still sucked. The faster we all realize that the players are over-hyped and had bigger egos than skills, the easier to accept the early exit. No one seemed to care after the first 20 minutes in EACH of the 3 games. You may ask why they only played well the first 20 minutes of each game and the first few minutes after half time. My theory is this. It is because of BVM pep talk. He prepared the team to go after a win. Despite the team’s fucked up mentality, his tactics worked in the beginning of the matches. But as time went on, reality set-in and his words and tactics faded away. The players returned to their TRUE self, a bunch of losers with NO fighting spirit. ALL teams in this Euro that were down kept fighting till the end. I remember oranje quitting 15 minutes before the end of the game against Denmark. WTF? They just accepted the defeat and stopped running or pressuring the opponent. I saw BVM livid on the sidelines shouting and screaming, but no one cared. Now don’t tell me this is his fault. You can take the horse to the river, but you can’t force it to drink!

  30. Jad says:

    Who you expect to be the next coach?

  31. Frank says:

    I agree, Jan. Robin is a club legend. There is nothing for him in Holland. I only wish he was English and he could play for the national team.

  32. Frank says:

    Only the Dutch would throw away a player like RvP. You guys are spoilt and it gets you nowhere.

  33. Wolf says:

    BvM did his trick for four years, and that was one year too long. It worked for three years, up until last summer, and then it fell apart. We could see that by the results, and the lack of chemistry/cohesion and reflection.
    It is time for a new coach and with that new players, diligence and tactics. Forza Oranje!

    Ever since 88 i am hoping and waiting for Cruijff to take the helm. One can dream right? Its not easy the be an Oranje fan.

  34. Frank says:

    With the players you have had you should have won three WC Finals.

    It so obvious watching from the outside. You people put your players and yourselves under so much pressure. Oranje players were so tense during these last three matches. RvP is like any very skilful player, it just doesn’t work unless you are relaxed. His body language was tense, tense, tense. I saw the same in KJH and several other players.

    …and now you sing ‘arsehole’ to RvP when he arrives at Schiphol and you wonder why he is tense? Come home, Robin

    • Ed says:

      Noone deserves to have ‘arsehole’ yelled at them – not RvP, not Robben not anyone.

      RvP however needs to realise that his job as CF is to put away the chances his midfield creates for him. He didnt do that – KJH may have been the better choice – if not we have able bodied replacements waiting to showcase their skills.

      Holland produces more young football talent than any other nation. It is perhaps this plethora of talent waiting in the wings that is a curse unto itself.

      RvP is not the greatest talent we have produced and he will know himself that he promised much and delivered little. He can blame the factions of the team as much as likes but Sneijder and company gave him chances on a silver platter and he failed.

      If Arsenal bring out the best in him then great – but he is not our best option as CF and the Dutch people are frustrated with him over that….nothing more, nothing less…..

    • Alex says:

      You have no idea why 80% of this country goes nuts do you? Dutch professional club football is nothing, it is a joke. Our teams have nothing to do in the big league(CL), it is nothing like club football in Spain, England or Italy. The only bit of pride left for Dutch football is the flag ship: oranje. That’s the only real Dutch team that can usually still compete at a high level.
      In Spain, they don’t go nuts for the national team, it’s all Barca, Real first, the rest of the clubs later, and somewhere in there the national team.

      That is what the Premier league, the big bucks and incredible amounts of money did. It made Van Persie a hero for his club on one hand, and carrying the weight of a country on the other.

      • Ed says:

        @Alex

        Wait for FIFA fair play to come into effect. Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord will compete with the best soon enough.

        We just need the crazy money of the “Big Leagues” to stop draining our clubs of the best Eredivisie talent.

        8 million Euro for Luuk De Jong by Newcastle is a joke. Carroll goes for 35 million pounds and our young talent goes for 8 (LDJ) 5.5 (Ricky Wolf) even Hunter was “only” 12…..

        Soon Alex, soon! 🙂

    • AL says:

      Frank,

      I tend to agree with you on this … if we control our expectations and reduce pressure on our players, probably we could be more successful.

  35. Alex says:

    Can anyone explain to me why Bouma was even in the squad when you looking at this:

    1. Bundesliga Topspieler 2011/12

    1 Reus, Marco
    2 Ribery, Franck
    3 Hummels, Mats /
    Leno, Bernd
    5 Kehl, Sebastian
    6 Zieler, Ron-Robert
    7 Ulreich, Sven
    8 Weidenfeller, Roman
    9 Blaszczykowski, Jakub
    10 Brouwers, Roel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Roel Brouwers in Kicker.de’s top 10 best players.. before Schweinsteiger, Lewandowski, Badstuber, Lahm, Subotic. He ranked second in the defensive players, only topped by German Hummels. Why the hell did Bert take Bouma, a crippled reserve for PSV when he had one of the best performing CB’s of the Bundesliga at his disposal.

  36. Simon says:

    @ Frank. I am also an Arsenal supporter and RvP my favourite player after Sneijder. I think you’re misunderstanding the way most of us feel. 99.9% are not abusing him, we just want to know wtf went wrong.

  37. balkan says:

    So much for BvM being a people’s manager. I still think this clan thing is overly exaggerated but I tend to believe that RvP can be a snake.

  38. Frank says:

    ‘…tend to believe that RvP can be a snake’…..why, for heavens sake?

    • Ed says:

      You seem blinded to RvP’s Oranje performances as a Gunners fan…

      RvP has proven himself to be immensely petulant and wholly unable to cope with any criticism of his own performances. His stance on selection and tactics is one of playing the media against his opponents.

      He also treats other players with disdain (incident with Krul comes to mid) and balks at any suggestion that he should ever be benched or substituted (in fact he chooses to suggest to the coach who should go instead)….unbelievable…..

      He has found an ally in Van Marwijk who seems to tolerate and/or support him for no apparent reason…. This is unacceptable as long as continues to underperform.

      RvP can be a manipulative snake as much as anyone of us are capable of – its just that he has shown that he still has not grown up and has never been brought to task for it either – he always wants his own way.

      He may be untouchable at Arsenal but in Oranje he is just another player – not the teams saviour – far from it in fact…..

      • Frank says:

        I may well be ‘blinded’ by the evidence of his performances and indeed his attitude with Arsenal, which is exemplary.

        But are you sure that you are not bringing your own prejudices to bear? You seem to be distorting the facts to meet your conclusion.

        But in fact we agree. I would rather RvP did not play for Oranje. Nothing good ever comes from it. I think he should give up playing for the national team and focus on his club.

        • Ed says:

          I wanted RvP to succeed….

          In fact i put a $100 bet on him being top scorer at WK2010….

          That didnt pan out to well.

          He just doesnt have the mojo for Oranje – Im sad about that but he cant keep the starting role if he doesnt deliver

        • Bitterballen says:

          agreed. and what has he done for arsenal besides having one spectacular season? how many champions league titles has he brought to arsenal? i follow the BPL very closely and although he is very talented, he tends to collapse when he is needed most…. and winning the champions league is the closest thing to winning the euro/WC, not finishing in the top 4 of the BPL…

        • Bitterballen says:

          and furthermore, it’s probably RVP’s stupid Arsenal contract that was on his mind when he should have focused on winning for his national team.

  39. Niels says:

    Things aren’t always rosy with other teams either.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwOwW4SVO6w&feature=related

    I think it’s ok to criticize this team, I don’t see the point of kissing their butts and hoping they sort it out themselves. A little heat from fans and the media could spur some hard introspection by all involved.

    • Ed says:

      Accountability by fans and the media will help the players (and coaching staff) keep perspective….

      Constructive criticism only.

      Yelling arsehole doesnt count as constructive……

      • dutch dream says:

        ED you are right, today van Hanegem wrote the same.
        About vPersie he said: A topplayer should always be top, on and off the pitch, if the player cant act accordingly the coach should hold him responsible for that.
        Right on!

        You wondered why vmarwijk tolearated this behaviour, vMarwijk believes that vPersie was one of his important players, thus you should give that player full trust and this will pay dividend in time. Sadly vPersie never paid back the trust vmarwijk had in him, he just divided and clouded the mood in oranje considering his own interests more important than those of oranje and the entire dutch nation.

        Yes I want he goes to london and stays there, never come back no more robin. dont you come back no more no more

  40. Balkan says:

    @Frank. Maybe calling him a snake is too much, I meant to say he seems like a bad character. I based it on the story about the 2 groups in the team (if that is true), about his storied past at Feyenoord and that ugly scene in WC 2010. Also I have always felt that Marwijk feared RvP and tried to always accommodate him at the expense of other players. I guess this is enough to not really trust him for the nice guy he looks on the pitch.

  41. dutch dream says:

    Another detail: Van Hangem didnt like it that vPersie decided to train as only one in black socks when all the eothers wore blue socks. This may sound petty but a team is a unity , and their shirt is their uniform, someone using different colors is putting himelf outside or above the team. That vMarwijk allowed this is sad and stunning.
    It was often said he was a bit afraid of him. Its outrageous. I really hope things will change in oranje soon.

  42. Laurent says:

    If Van Marwijk stays, Van Persie and Robben will stay, we’ll go to Brazil, but we’ll do like France 2010, shame of the world with argues between players, no play…

    We really have to rebuild NOW

  43. Nad says:

    Van Persie is not a snake. Don’t be silly. Feyenoord was a long time ago and ok he didn’t like to be taken off in WC2010 but that was the end of the matter and made no fuss of it after that.

    Robben, Huntelaar and VDV were much worse for the atmosphere.

    • Balkan says:

      No fuss?! Of course he didn’t make a fuss. He started every game thereafter and was never replaced again. BvM knew RVP can be a problem and tended him too much, way too much. A manager is supposed to deal and accommodate all different characters in a team and make it work but only up to a certain point. If it doesn’t work then that team member needs to be kicked out.

      • Nad says:

        What are you talking about? Before the Slovenia game Van Persie was subbed off every time and he didn’t like it because he felt he would get chances on counter attack.

        After that he apologiesed and didn’t make a fuss when he was taken off against Brazil in the next game.

        Apart from that Minor incident van Persie has been as good as gold.

        • Balkan says:

          Ok Nad, perhaps my memory is not that good and maybe RvP was substituted every game. We still don’t know what goes on behind doors. Pure fact though is that RvP was good as sh!t during WC2010 in the field. It almost felt like we were playing with only 10 players every game.

          • Nad says:

            I disagree. Just because he didn’t score doesnt mean he was shit. He got an assist against Denmark, Assist against Japan and an assist against Uruguay in the semi final and he played very well in that game. He also made a good decoy run against Slovakia that created space for Robbens goal.

            He came highest in chance creation after xavi too. He played his role well, helped create space and chances for the other attackers

  44. HedonistiX says:

    @Alex:

    You have no idea why 80% of this country goes nuts do you? Dutch professional club football is nothing, it is a joke. Our teams have nothing to do in the big league(CL), it is nothing like club football in Spain, England or Italy. The only bit of pride left for Dutch football is the flag ship: oranje. That’s the only real Dutch team that can usually still compete at a high level.
    In Spain, they don’t go nuts for the national team, it’s all Barca, Real first, the rest of the clubs later, and somewhere in there the national team.

    —-

    Hi Alex,

    This is what I do NOT understand, if they all are “stars” in their respective clubs (RVP being the brightest of them all), why not roll your sleeves prior to your summer holiday, check out your ego, get along with your mates, listen to your coach and play for the pride of the Oranje?

    The point you made about Spain, Barca and Real makes this internal bickerings (rumor or truth) even more of a joke because when politics are involved it should have been much more serious. And they all are stars, winners at their respective clubs BUT they are all able to “get along” and play together for one month? Fabregas came out of the bench, Silva sometimes doesn’t start … I meant, come on? How could they shut their mouths and played/scored?

  45. Hien says:

    This team failed but I agreed with Jan that you could not yell “dirty words” to players like some fans did. We need to support these players and the team through good and bad times. You see well that the system failed the players. With Huntelaar is the striker, how many decent chance that he had? One or two. The only way to resolve this is to bring in a new coach (someone like Blanc, French coach) who clean up, drop players, pick a system, pick core players and build the the system around the core players. Dont’ bring back Advocaat, Hiddink or Van Gaal or any other coach. Go with Rijkaard or Frank De Boer, with JC and Van Hanegem as consultant.

    • Laurent says:

      Blanc completly changed the team, no more Gallas, Anelka, Henry, Toulalan…

      He only kept Ribery, Malouda (not always titular) and Evra (not always titular).

      You can’t ask to take example on him and asking in the same time to see again Van Persie and Robben in 2014.

  46. Bitterballen says:

    We gave up 5 goals and were sent packing.

    Portugal gave up 4 goals and are through….

    Talk about sh&*#t luck

  47. Moose says:

    Bad Luck as usual..We showed our great potential during the first phases of the matches…Holland will bounce back I’m sure of that! Let’s just hope the players start getting along

  48. Tiju says:

    It was not bad luck. It was bad play.

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