Quite a blow for this new blog too!! And no player even mentions that post match! But…not too worry. Dutch football will carry on. Expect more interviews and analysis and in the coming weeks loads of stuff on Holland as we bounce back and we will keep on following all our heroes during the season. All of them. Like… eh…Willems… And…the others.
Seriously, we have columns from guest speakers, surveys, games, talent analysis and what not. In particular what not!
KNVB general manager Bert van Oostveen calls the humiliating exit of the Dutch national team “Oranje unworthy”. He didn’t want to comment on Bert van Marwijk’s future at the football association. “That wouldn’t be appropriate.”
“Zero points at a final tournament, I don’t think it ever got this bad…”, he mused. “This will be thoroughly evaluated, with all involved. Head coach, technical staff and team manager (Hans Jorritsma). And we will do so quickly as we have a first game on August 15. You can expect our communications before mid July and I will manage the evaluation myself.”
Van Oostveen didn’t want to speculate about an exit of the former Feyenoord coach. “We will also evaluate the fact we won silver on the World Cup and the fact that Van Marwijk cruised through the two qualification series with the team.”
Last December, Van Oostveen extended Van Marwijk’s deal till the WC2016. But there are evaluation points and specific clauses in the contract. Van Marwijk didn’t want to comment. “I am totally gutted now. The last thing I’m pondering is my career…”
Bert van Oostveen, Van Marwijk’s boss…
Van Oostveen did add that Oranje booked a positive result financially. “But only just. And with the team performing like this, the ticket sale will hurt.”
Gregory van der Wiel describes the tournament as a bitter disappointment. The right back had a tough night against C Ronaldo and the Portuguese star scored twice against Oranje.
Two years ago, he played the World Cup finals, now he goes home with zero points. “I wonder what happened. I didn’t play my own game. I love attacking, playing football, creating two-against-one situations. This Euros it feels like I had to defend constantly (sic).”
Van der Wiel: “No idea what went wrong. I was unmarked a lot but simply didn’t get the ball. Today I played a guy who didn’t track back. But still I couldn’t support the forwards.”
“We started good, like in the other games, and after 20 minutes it’s started to pivot. Portugal is deadly in the counter. It’s hard to pinpoint where the problems came.”
Ron Vlaar’s name suddenly popped up on the team sheet. The Feyenoord defender replaced John Heitinga.
Flop of the match vs Man of the match. Flop on the left.
The tall defender was disappointed. “We knew exactly what we needed to do. We scored early and we didn’t even know the scoreline at the other game. But we started to play more sloppy and Portugal was constantly threatening. But even when they scored, we felt we were in it. But when they scored again, it was game over.”
“We had to take risks. And with Ronaldo and Nani, they have to super assassins in their team. At a certain point we only had three defenders.”
Vlaar saw his starting berth approaching. “I felt I was close. I had some good weeks. But who cares now? I’m disappointed. I wanted to perform. Maybe sometime in the future I can look back at this and feel good about it. Certainly not today.”
Reality is harsh. These are words Arjen Robben uttered after the Portugal game. “We lost three times at the Euros. That is quite a message. We all need to look very long and hard into the mirror. We have all failed. And there were some incidents within the group but I won’t mention those. Those will stay internally.”
On the pitch, Robben could be heard yelling “Shut your mouth” to Bert van Marwijk a couple of times, when the coach instructed the winger to track back.
“Ir’s hard to explain it all. Some things are so hard to explain. Again, we started good but we didn’t keep on playing our game. And then we concede and we sort of disappear.”
Mark van Bommel didn’t want to speak on behalf of the team, only for himself. “I can’t look into their heads, but I do believe the vibe was different this time around. The situation was different too of course. Some players have a different status now…. But whatever, we can’t say a thing. It was simply bad. In particular the results.”
Robben on his knees…
The new PSV signing did defend his coach and father in law, Bert van Marwijk. “Bert is a fighter. He will land on his feet. I don’t think he deserves too much of the blame. And whatever he or the KNVB decide, that is for us to respect.”
Wesley Sneijder was open, as ever, after the game. “Do we need to fire Bert? What? Come on man! Chin up! We reached the finals with Bert two years ago and now he can’t do any good anymore? Do I see a future with him? I certainly do.”
Sneijder was part of the pre-game discussions with Bert on tactics, but admits he didn’t get his way. “Well, we needed to change certain things, I was with that. But I don’t feel too good on the left flank. I don’t get to see the ball enough and I can’t do all I want to do, but that’s what it is. I played there, did my best. You have to do what’s best for the team, right?”
whoa, can’t wait for future articles on the future of Holland, The Coaching candidates to replace van marwijk if he gets replaced. And what tactical systems we could be using, and who will be on the field.
although this tournament was disappointing, you can’t get better without suffering a healing crisis first right? this can be a good thing, to learn from the mistakes.
We’ll make it next time boys. For now chin UP and carry on!!
Let’s have pep guardiola, he is free
Yeah lets get a spanish quote who learned his football from the dutch. This isn’t a Barca blog.
*coach* – no disrespect but if we ever did this we would be like the English with an Italian coach (a laughing stock)
I’m looking forward to our next match. Any chance to win has got to be a good thing. Even if it’s a friendly, we need some confidence back… The boys must be shattered. I still believe that this core group can do well in the next WC.
… But oh what I’d do for a young Stam or De Boer haha.
If after this debacle -You still come here to voice an opinion, read news on our Oranje and its future, you still search Dutch Newspapers and others for news on our team – then you are a TRUE BLUE bleeder of Orange. I am looking forward to seeing who retires, who stops, who starts? Is Douglas coming in? Dost ? Wolf ? Lots of new and interesting things which I am sure Jan will keep us in the Know of. HUP HOLLAND HUP !
Jan I feel like throwing a Banana at that pic you have up, our guys seriously played like Monkeys (maybe thats an insult to the Monkeys). Also as Bananas are one of my favourite fruits, I wouldnt waste it on them !
What next time ?! for teh past 24 years, i am saying next time, this ” next time ” shold be over and it time to deliver results, small teams who’s new to teh business are performing better results and performance, There is no next time with this team, The dutch team got a lot of bright players who’s willing to fight, new players and new skills, Is time but not next time, Its time to renovate teh whole fucking team, All these old style non performing playrs should be moving, Including teh coach himself, A new blood should be pumped, Its now or never, But not ” next time “, There is a huge friction between players, THEY CANNOT PLAYER TOGETHER ANYMORE ! I am a football player and i know what i am saying, I can feel it!
I agree with this! These players seem to have trusting issues between them. I could feel it during the game. At one point Robben had a chance and he took the shot. Persie yelled at him, and the next tim Robben passed to Persie having a better chance if he shot it.
At the begining I was like, take one out, put the other player in, now I realise this has nothing to do with names anymore. They dont trust each other.
We should have a plan, and I didnt get which was the plan itself? How would they play, with what purpose? How they were going to do it? No patterns anywhere to be seen, no automatisms, no structure, no nothing.
It hurts me to see them like this, because this is a bunch of high talented players. But they cant work as a unit.
Until the dutch change there attitude in general as a whole, new players or old, history will continue to repeat it self.
This has been the case with the dutch since the 80’s.
Hate to say it but there is a reason people that aren’t dutch have a little saying for us.
“Wooden listen, wooden shoes(choose), wooden head!
All of these because of that damn Denmark game.. What a shame
i cannot belive this part of article about robben yelling.
On the pitch, Robben could be heard yelling “Shut your mouth” to Bert van Marwijk a couple of times, when the coach instructed the winger to track back.
is it true? rooben was my legend, but if he yeeling shut your mouth to BVM. i would wonder and leave him. we all have respect to our coach. i think he cannot doing better with defence like matjisen flop heithinga over rated van der wiel who was our worst player with van persi.
Robben should be shipped as soon as possible one of the most selfish players one would see on a footy pitch..
we all love robben because he is selfish. robben is robben becasue of his selfish style. without selfish he would be a player like romedal or ….
in 2006 when we crashed out the tornoument by Portugal. I read a article with this title “Netherland Out but not Down” it talk about young Robben, Van Persi, Sneijder, Heitinga. today after 6 years. Goal said a sentence which i think we have belive it “Netherlands Down and Out”.
Changes need to be made. Bouma,Boula,Mathijsen,Kuyt,Van Bommel,definitely out! Maybe some others…VdV?
But as long as Bert remains the coach,I dont see any major change. I can see Van Bommel and Kuyt remaining. That is what I am afraid of.
A risk needs to be taken now with youngsters before it is too late.
No offence but Boulahrouz hasnt even played in this tournament lol. I’d keep at least one or 2 with experience, my best bet would be Heitinga and/or Boulahrouz, just to have something as a back up.
As Dutch fans we’re not used to such a dismal performance and elimination at group stage. But it happened in the past also to France, Germany, Italy, England … and now it happened to us. It’s hard to swallow but we (and especially the KNVB) have to learn from this experience and move forward because the WC campaign is around the corner. Anyway, my two cents on our problems in this tournament and what needs to be done:
1. I agree that the defenders are weak and we need to explore other options, but never forget that defending in the Dutch system is mostly based on how we put pressure on the opponent and on our ball possession game. In these two factors we were very weak this tournament and this put more pressure on an already weak defense line. So top priority for the next coach is to get back our possession game.
2. We spent a lot of time on this blog debating formations, RVP vs Hunter, VdV vs VBommel etc. Formation was never the real problem and the coach is not to blame for this. In fact against Portugal he played in the manner that ‘we’ wanted him to play and it was the worst game out of the three !!! On the other hand BVM has to shoulder responsibility for the lack of team work, dedication, spirit, fighting for every ball, etc. These factors were present in WC2010 but it seemed that for some unknown reason we lost this capability during the last months … BVM has to be blamed for this.
3. Regarding individual players, we had some players off form, but then again, the greatest blunder was a player in his best form – RVP. That explains the fact that the real problem is coming from the first two issues mentioned above rather than individual performances. The new coach has to build a team around the present stars. It would be complete nonsense and total insanity to remove players like Robben and RVP as mentioned by some of you. You were clearly switched on emotional mode when you spoke this way 🙂 Also, no big changes are required. Sometimes the insertion of two or even one player is enough to fill a gap and to gel the team. The biggest gap right now is in midfield … there is a missing role which is just not being filled … not even VdV is good for this role. So the new coach has to explore options for this role and possibly try new young players. However i repeat, the real problem is our system of play not the individual players.
I tend to agree.
I love watching the Dutch, but in all honesty, there have been few games to reminise upon with a sense of content while BvM has been at the helm – in purely footballing terms that is.
Maybe I’m hyper-critical, but I find myself rarely satisfied with the way that we play. The WC, for me, was a shocker. I don’t care that we were runners-up, I barely enjoyed watching a single game.
However, I was content with the Denmark game, I actually quite enjoyed it, so I wonder how much the ‘chase’ in the subsequent games affected our lads play. We seemed to play rather well with our standard formation against Denmark, so I don’t know what to think. We certainly didn’t react well to conceding during this tournament.
Finally some reality, you cannot abandon all your stars at this point. Some new blood needs to gain experience but dropping Robben for Narsingh at this point is foolish at best.
we need a balance of stars and role players. RVP scores at arsenal because everyones job is to get him the ball in a position to score. its the role players around him that allow him to score so often.
at this tourny, wes was off his game, and the rest of our midfield isnt built to support a player like RVP (saw that at the WC too, he gets no service). The WC we relied on the individual efforts of robben, wes, and unworldly shots from the likes of gio, and they were on fire so we won. that works fine for a hot streak or vs san marino, but you cant count on it day in and day out.
we need guys to do the dirty work, get to the endlines and put balls in the box. I dont think we had one decent ball into the box from an end line all tourny.
finally, we are so fucking slow as a team, mentally and physically. Even when portugal allowed us to counter, we’d hold the ball up at mid field and then pass it back. I bet we had the most back passes in the tourney, which helps boost our possession numbers.
Recoup, review, reconfigure and hopefully we’ll be back in 2014 with avengeance. Until then, we all have Jan and his ‘dutchsoccersite’… Never a disspointing showing.
I learned a lot from this match and reality is a hard pill to swallow, but after watching the German game I realize that we deserved to loose against Denmark. We have the better players thhey have the better TEAM.
Unfortunately my prediction in a previous post came true. Ronaldo made minced meat of our mid/def! Sad thing is only possative I take out of this tourney is that I realize that we were not as good as I thought, so I don’t feel it was undeserved!
I don’t agree with VDV in saying that they don’t deserve what they got! In no way at all did we get robbed of anything like the missed call that cost us the WC in 10! At best the only thing we might not have deserves was that bad read on steks that cost us a fluke goal against Denmark!
So what I learned this euro!
1.History repeats itself, with infighting amongst pre-madona players as we’ve seen for along time
2.Total football is something we haven’t played for some time.
3.Huntelaar is useless unless he’s wide open in the box, and doesn’t have the ability to beat guys 1 in 1.
4.RVP is better then I gave him credit for in the past.
5.Sneijder’s arrogance has made me loose respect for him.
6.We have a very skilled squad with no speed other then a few.
7.Our formation does not support our forwards or defense.
8.Having said that our wingers don’t back track creating the wings of field to have huge space for opponents.
9.Our wingers were not in shape enough to back track and then be potent on offense. Hence why we always came out strong in begining of 1st and 2nd halfs.
10.Its not that players were really that selfish it only appeared that way because no one would work to get open.
11.The Dutch culture’s ingrained stubborn attitude has poisened the coach’s and players causing what we’ve seen the last 2 weeks, and in previous decades. This is why we have so much internal outbursts among players and coaches. This is the biggest reason we don’t play as a team!
12.Unless there is a swift intervention of systems we will have no chance to capitalise in WC 14, and I’m afraid that this was are best chance with our golden era and key playes. They might be over the hill by that time, and I don’t see any Van nistelroys, Robbens, Sneiders, RVP’s or Huntelaars coming up through are youth
13.BVM didn’t take Holland to the WC in 10 it was a healthy on form squad that took him. He failed to address all the major issues. And when he did it was either too lte or he still was missing things or didn’t get it right. Sneijder on the wing? Cmon, he’s the nucleus of the team and why we did so well in WC. Stupid!!
I really thought this was are time, and I hope I am wrong but I’m concerned that we are heading into a not so bright Oranje future!
Please, im sick and tired of this bullshit about infighting, thats the lamest most cliche word ive heard, there is always internal trouble when you do not perform, that is the case everywhere. It is a fairy tale to think that this is some symptomatic dutch thing.
I’m not saying that’s why they lost… But if you didn’t realize this was the case you’ve been living on the moon for the last 20 or so years.
There has always been a history of players fighting amongst themselves and with coaching!
That’s all I here everyone talk about when I am in holland when we talk about KNVB, so I don’t know where you’ve been or are coming from??
If people talk about it all the time it does not necessarily make it true. That there has been talk of this when the teams did not do well does not make it an exclusively Dutch thing. The two do not show any specific causality other than people talking about it the minute oranje does not perform.
That sounds true what you are saying, however why is always the dutch in the media regarding this matter time and time again when they don’t do well.
I can’t say I remember this happening to other teams in the last 25 years even know I’m sure there have been other teams.
But it always seems to be the dutch that have this issue
Comments from Van der Wiel like “No idea what went wrong”. WTF!!!!!!!!!!! I know what went wrong you are simply not good enough at this level and Ronaldo embarrassed you!
It’s time to start fresh and if Robben won’t track back for the team he can go and shut up and fuck off out of the squad!!!
When we lost the final in 2010 it was one year before I could bring myself to even lurk on this site (it’s predecessor to be precise). The pain was too great.
This time around I feel different. Disappointed for sure but not shattered. Maybe it was the loss to Denmark, maybe it was the loss to Germany, maybe it was the sense that reaching the final two years ago was a once in half a lifetime opportunity.
Whatever the case may be, I am bleeding Oranje …
This is what I wrote before the match against Portugal.
My starting 11 against Portugal:
Stekelenburg, Van Der Wiel, Heitinga, Mathijsen, Willems/Schaars, De Jong, Van Der Vaart, Sneijder, Afellay, Robben, Huntelaar/van Persie. We will have no control/authority in the midfield if Huntelaar and van Persie are played together, because we will lack midfielders. Look at how Spain played against Italy. They even had no striker.
In short, do not play Huntelaar and van Persie together, because they have same styles/types: pure striker!
I would agree Hunter is pure striker, RVP is a good playmaker unlike hunter.
Its our formation I find that leaves so much space on wings and middle
@AL “Formation was never the real problem and the coach is not to blame for this. ” I wholeheartedly disagree, it plays a big part in it all.
@bojap
I would’ve been ok with leaving the tournament with a draw, at least we wouldve been able to keep some sort of pride. The line up was not what I wanted, Bert did not learn when he put Robben on the right again.. And Sneijder.. your best central midfielder on the left. I thought it was a bit odd to be honest, you couldve built in some failsaves, like Kuyt on the right with V.d.Wiel, so he would have some support, Robben on the left for crosses and Sneijder central.
Formation is just one of the parts that went totally wrong.
In the world cup we did not play well, but did win. I am pretty sure that the sole reason we did not play well is because we have had a mediocre back line since 2004. Van Basten played quite attacking football and we played well in 2008 but got eliminated by Russia on a whim, after that defence just got worse. And Bert made the team play in a very organized, almost cramped playing style where you have alot of conservatism, back then V.Bommel, Mathijsen and Kuyt were topfit and could handle closing the gaps so the attackers could actually score individual goals, and not leave our midfield non-existent.I say individual because hardly any goals were produced from flowing team play, most were just individual peak moments or from set-plays. 2 years later, Robben cutting inside is no longer a neat trick, Kuyt is on the bench in favor of a non-fit Afellay who does not track back. V.Bommel can’t close the gaps anymore, V.d.Wiel no longer has support from left and right and his mistakes were, unlike then, immidiately punished, Mathijsen is older too, and Willems too young. Leaving our back 6 fearful and clinging to our box. Leaving a huge gap in midfield between the defence and the attackers, draining the latter and making them impotent. Granting complete freedom in midfield for opponents to play into, cutting into this poor defence like a hot knife through butter.
2 years ago Bert saw that you can’t win a tournament with our defence by playing open end attacking football, and his trick worked, our defensive lack of quality was compensated by De Jong and V.Bommel and sheer work effort and we nearly got our prize.
Now, his left back left, the new one was injured and all he came up with was an 18 year old, Mathijsen was too slow and Heitinga made the same mistakes 2 years ago, only now the rest was not in top form, and ready to save his ass, Van der Wiel found himself actually having to defend, and it showed that he made no progress in 2 years in his defensive capabilities. ormation was never the real problem and the coach is not to blame for this. Again, V.Bommel lost the stamina/fitness and thus all 6 of them became fearful and held back. The bandaid on our this time even weaker defence began to peel off and an open wound has emerged. Bert can be blamed for not playing his attack in a way that actually made sense, with Sneijder on his best position and scoring power with Huntelaar/V.Persie, and Robben on the left.
But defensively it is clear that we have not had a world class/topclass defender like Stam or De Boer, or like Pepe/Alves/Coentrao since 2004. Bert’s remedies no longer worked and I have the feeling he had no clue what to do.
@Alex … again I beg to disagree. Whatever the formation the result would have been the same. There is something serioulsy wrong with our playing system, our physical determination, mental fitness, our ball possession game is hopeless. It was not a question of who play in what role … this was clearly evidenced against Portugal when Bert made almost all of the changes we asked for. Now let’s not move goalposts, and call a spade a spade.
@AL, my friend, you do not know this, you merely suspect it. Formation makes a difference even in a team that performs so badly. Part of the mayhem started with poor formation. If Sneijder feels like a twat on the left side, do you really think it does not have an effect? Players positioning has its effect, and no one knows what would have happened if V.Marwijk had actually played the pawns on logical positions for once. He did no such thing, but I can say we would have won vs Denmark in a better formation. Now if you think differently be my guest.
As frustrated as I am, this poor display will be good for us it will force us to change, and hopefully it will be for the better. France at the last World Cup where in crisis mode, and they are now looking a lot better. I think we could only move forward from here.
I also think a big factor that not many are speaking about was the pressure the team had being one of the favourites when usually I would say we’re often not one of the favourites more one of the chances and that after our World Cup the pressure to perform might have got to some of the players.
On the pitch, Robben could be heard yelling “Shut your mouth” to Bert van Marwijk a couple of times, when the coach instructed the winger to track back.
——————————————–
IS this true ?!!!!
Even if I trust Robben knows more about how to score then BVM, Robben didn’t get all those break aways against spain in his career from back tracking.
At that point in the game what does it matter? Let the dee and mids try to handle it and let him try and score!
I don’t agree with this formation but its a know win situation because of space it leaves. So BVM should be to blame.
If Robben back tracks he’s not nearly as dangerous! I get it but how do you have a guy trying to score that’s coming back to our box and then expect him to blow by defenders when he’s not in top form as it is. BVM should know better
robben didnt get A break away this tourney, and he sure as hell wasnt back tracking either
i dont think hes as fast as he was in the WC, maybe due to fatigue from a long season, as well as the weather.
Yes your right I meant in previous years. Thing is though it makes that much harder to score if he’s always coming back.
I get it but @ that moment they had to take chances. If you look at when we played spain in WC, when he got those 2 break aways it was from him not tracking back and puyol realizing this and pushing forward letting robben behind him. You could say puyol was an idiot for pinching also but he was taking a chance also.
Once again I get it but you have to take chances once in a while, or he’s always going to have defender in front of him not behind.
Seems a few cannot see the woods for the trees.
Dropping Dirk Kuyt to the bench has now effectively cost two managers their jobs in the last few months. As a Liverpool fan it’s so PAINFULLY obvious.
See, it’s not necessarily Kuyt who plays better himself, it’s not that he’s a one man show, it’s that he INSPIRES the people around him to FIGHT. He brings passion, determination. He spreads it like a virus.
He plays at a higher level than his team mates, forcing them to better their performances. He’s a true team player.
To win these tournaments you NEED a team.
We don’t have a team. We have some ageing individuals. That’s why we failed. THAT’s the difference from two years ago.
Good luck to Van Der Weil and Willems – that’s two careers heading straight for the scrapheap. Completely outclassed, I will be amazed if they ever fully recover from this most public flogging. Such a shame.
We kick Bert when he picks a defensive team. We kick him when he plays only 3 defenders and chases a game with ‘everything but the kitchen sink’.
Wake up.
The problem is more than just Bert and his hilarious 4231.
Those were our best players out there. We don’t have any others! The problem is we were not good enough.
We did not play as a team!
Our individual talents did not come to our rescue.
We’ve seen our supposedly most defensive line up leak goals!
We’ve seen our supposedly most attacking line up fail to even threaten the opposition goal!
Even with our best players in their best positions, WE WERE NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
World Class? Hahahaha…….
Maybe we will be back. It will certainly take some time to recover from this.
We must rebuild the defence.
We must play with 433.
We must install a team ethic.
We must look to the future, and start using our new talents – play with youth and pace.
For this generation it is over.
Finished.
Accept that. Move on. Or face the same heartache again when we next qualify.
I agree with you .
Kuyt was one of the important reasons why we could play the WC final 2 years ago , and benching him was also one of the reasons why we are out from the group stage .
He’s almost 32 years now .
He’s getting old , but i think he has enough fitness and stamina to play for 2 more years .
I have to be honest and agree Kuyt did play a role in picking up the defensive slack 2 years ago, especially V.d.Wiel and Willems could have used his support today.
We can blame V.d.Wiel for developing 0% defensively, but we can’t blame Willems, he did his best and he has the talent, just hope we did not kill his career with this.
Yeah, I feel so sad for Willems.
What must he be thinking now?
Two weeks ago he had the world at his feet. Now he has the world on his shoulders. That’s a lot of for any 18 year old to handle. He was systematically dismantled in each game. Clinical dissection. He has been found severely lacking. I sincerely pray he recovers from this, and doesn’t disappear into obscurity.
Van Der Weil has no-one to blame but himself. He even showed flashes of talent during the tournament, but there was no conviction. No belief. Not enough overlapping. And that horrible cross goal pass of his – why does he try this EVERY game? Suicidal. Of all the places to make errors, defence was not an area where we could afford them.
We missed Kuyt and Gio.
They may be old, but they had fire in their bellies.
If they were too old, fine, then why didn’t Bert replace them with similar talents?
This morning I am ashamed.
My country, my passion – I have been humiliated.
I have no recourse. There’s no finger pointing. We must take this on the chin.
It is the most crushing devastation I have ever felt for my beloved Oranje, and for Holland in general.
This pain will last a very, very long time indeed.
I’d like to see Cruyff mastermind a new generation for us. He works best with the younger talents anyway. That’s what we need now. Total Rebuild.
It’ll never happen, but I can dream.
This morning, dreaming seems better than reality.
Agree about Kuyt! His absence was noticeable. Even at 32 he works harder than most and presses the ball–which a lot of guys on this team cannot do. As weak as we are in the back, the midfield is a problem. What is it? We do not seem fit? We are slow? We play well for 20 minutes and then cannot get the ball. After we scored Portugal controlled the ball–and they were much faster and more dangerous in transition–on the counter–than Holland.
Van Persie IS good and should be the striker. Yea, he screwed up against Denmark. But with Hunter in he was out of position and was useless. That, in turn, moved Sneijder out of his favored position. We had nobody in midfield/front except de jong who can press and bother the opponent and get the ball. Too many personnel and position issues, guys coming off injuries and not in form. Sneijder is wonderful when he has the ball in the attacking half–but otherwise he has issues. Lots of questions–ugh!
It wasn’t about the form 4231 , it was about the way we played and the players who , for unknown reasons , played with no spirit .
However , i think we need to play with 4-3-3 , or 3-4-3 or even 4-4-2 .
4-2-3-1 is not a bad form ,it just doesn’t fit with our players .
persie never performed with this strategy , huntelaar too.
vdv and sneijder never played well together with this form .
Changing the team must be very gradual , a massive change may end up with 2002-like tragedy .
We have great players , we only have to change the defense and give chances to young players in the other spots to have a complete team ” have a plan B ” .
i would suggest 3-4-3 for Oranje .
___________ Stek _________________
_________ Douglas ________________
___ De jong ___________ Pieters __
_________ Strootman ______________
Kuyt ___________________ Emanuelson
_________ Sneijder _______________
Persie __________________ Robben
______ Huntelaar _______________
subs : krul , de vrij , heitinga , anita , schaars , fer , wijnaldum , ola john , willems , elia , afellay , wolf , luuk de jong , adam maher , clasie ..
We have too many good players , just need to know how to get the best of everyone and of all of them together as a team .
As a semi-Dutch, semi-German living in Germany I always used to be really proud of our Oranje. I didn’t worry about standing in a crowd of Germans wearing an Oranje shirt and to cheer if everyone else should fall silent. But yesterday – on my way home I closed my jacket so no could see I was wearing a Dutch shirt. This really was embarassing…
I missed everything in this game yesterday, nobody seemed to want eat dirt, just take a little walk around the central spot and try to get a good look on the clock to see when they could get packed and head into their vacations. Cruel to say this.
Best man on the pitch for Oranje was by far Stekelenburg, without whom we could’ve gone done 4 or 5 goals – easily. So yeah… Back to normal life now 😉 On August 15th we’ll start again and see what we can do! Without downs no ups, so let’s hope the best, support Oranje and look forward to Brasil, where we’ll get a hold on the World Cup. Yeah, one European one is more then enough, so what 😉
To end this post with something positive: Jan, thanks for your great site!! I’ve been following your blog since 2010 and am really looking forward to every new article! And it’s great to have a platform for some Dutchies like me in No-Man’s-Land to cry together – and to cheer, which I’m sure we’ll do in the future! Hup Holland 🙂
Believe me, I have never been this ashamed, even the lost final 2 years ago was different, and the battle against Portugal in 2006 was too.
I don’t have too high hopes on the world cup, I just hope we can make a good impression there and play attractive attacking football.
And to those asking, Douglas is staying in netherlands till August, he’s not leaving before that because he wants to play for oranje and is only eligible then.
If there is anyone I have hopes for it is him, please be our.. more intelligent Pepe, haha. I hope he makes it to the top. We need a defender like that, a real man, fast, strong and tough as nails. Maybe Pieters can join Douglas in centre, Van Rhijn can take over from V.d.Wiel and left back?? maybe Büttner while Willems isnt ready ?
Bert should leave, yes his assessment should be based on the two tournaments played but even if he continues, it will be difficult to motivate himself and the players after all this. A new guy will want to distant himself from the past and will not have the same amount of pressure as Van Marwijk would have. Besides a new guy will have exclude any sentimental attachments if he chooses drops a certain player from the current crop. so its just so logic to change the manager. I don’t think its hard to build a strong team in the two years left before the WC, Germany and France are two genuine examples.
Its so easy to crucify this defense, since they are not top class players hitting on them makes it look so logical and proper. But as much as we blame the defense, the offense should have a beating and hanged. This were top class players and could easily have entered any team/nation. So guys, be kind to our back four, with their limited capabilities they have given so much and a little more. This so called “weak defense” has inherited 5 goals (ok its bad), but the “world class” offense has contributed just 2 goals.
If you play with 6 people against your own box, and your attackers play way up front, you effectively have no midfield. You try scoring when you have to close those gaps constantly.
I thought our back four were trying to move up, and that is why we got caught on counters by Renaldo four or five times with defenders (Vlaar) scrambling back to catch up with the great Portugese player!
And as Mark van Bommel said: no midfielder has the legs to cover that gap: wether he’s 23 or 35 years old…
Scoring goals is much harder than stopping goals, if this was not the case results would be 10 -8, 12- 10 etc, not 1-0, 2-1 etc. defense wins games, midfield creates, strikers hit or miss it really is that simple!
I haven’t written here since Denmark. I was so disappointed. I still am.
With Cruyff’s Barca connection he might have the pull to bring Pep. When you think about it he has already reached the pinnacle when it comes to club competition if he thinks he could have a chance at winning the world cup as couch of this Dutch team it might not be out of the question. His already going to take a year of from club football why not make it two with a World Cup to his name.
Stijnis, Pep is after big money I think. He wouldn’t do national coaching for a long while.
i’m sure he’s not after big money. he wants one sabbatical year and he has already moved with his family to new york. he looked really tired and exhausted,he deserves one year far from the football world.
on the other hand i really would like to see him as oranje’s coach. from next summer. johan could convince him. he knows better the dutch way than bvm… in my opinion argentina will have more chance of getting pep than any other nation (messi).
I can’t see the KNVB employing anyone outside out of Holland and that is not Dutch. Even Pep.
sorry spelling error coach not couch.
Robben shouting on the pitch to BvM?!
Robben is the man!
I just hope Bert van Oostveen hears what Robben has to say…
It’s quite clear that BvM has to go. I sincerely hope he makes the move instead of creating more and more turmoil.
Guardiola?! Not to found on foreign coaches. To me a national coach is mandatory.
So my pick would be Foppe de Haan. Is this possible? Is this insane? Where is the man at this moment? Does he coach in Holland? I have the best memories from him in the two UEFA Under21 he won in row. I think he did a great job with those younger players, some of them were Huntelaar, Emanuelson, Schaars, Babel, Pieters.
Of course my ultimate pick would be JC, but… 😀
Carlos, I have been asking many times about Foppe but nobody here knows about him. It seems he is too old and since he was overlooked by KNVB when Bert was picked he has lost interest in coaching. I hope I am wrong and that he is an option. My gut tells me that Bert will stay. I am preparing myself to see MvB – 37 yr young to be captain again in Brasil.
Yep, I also have the impression that he’s persona non grata down at the KNVB. Right now he’s coaching Tuvalu National Football team, somewhere at the Pacific. Sounds like retirement to me 😉 So I don’t think he’ll be an option.
Foppe is too old to connect with these guys. He’s too…”Dutch”. Too “normal”. He thinks driving a new BMW is exaggerating. Don’t think the current lads will take kindly to that attitude 😉
I agree Robben is the man and I can’t believe I am reading what he has been screaming. Either way, he knows how to play, he knows how his teammates play and they just could not click. Perfect example was the runs he made, he could either cut in or choose to lay off, one of the few lay offs in the first half results in a terrific goal from VDV, the other layoffs to Van Persie, saw a blocked shot or a horrible return pass.
For those who say formation is nothing, please watch a few matches or pick up a book and determine what it’s like for a CAM to play on the wing. Or taking a winger and playing him on an uncomfortable side of the pitch.
Everyone had their high hopes on Hunty and unfortunately we got nothing in return, this is not to say he’s a prolific scorer to a great player it was just too obvious and unfortunately all we did was bomb the ball, Sneijder not having a good idea, why, BECAUSE HE WAS OUT OF POSITION. Why was Robben changed between the left and right, there you go. Defense was at blame here and I was very surprised he didn’t take a few players with him and didn’t leave the others at home.
I don’t see Pep taking over just yet as he def needs/wants time off, if Chelsea couldn’t give him the millions and millions, he won’t take over a national job for cheap work and probably the same amount of pressure. I would like to Bert shuffle the cards/formation cause most likely he will still be there end of this year and we need our top, top players to perform and not worry about backtracking ALL THE TIME, some times yes its good to show hustle, but you do it so often, the defense gets laxed and there’s no more penetration/urgency.
Still too disappointed to fully everything, but after a couple of days it’ll go away and with some nice posts and reads on our future, it will get better and before we know it Aug then Sept then more qualifying then WC action!
i just want them to play football again, something that hasent happened under vMarwijk
i wont have a problem with them not qualifying for the next WC as long as the team is build to play football again
i know im a romantic, but i still rather see a dazzling Oranje crashing out in a quarterfinal then playing this sad kind of football and reaching the final..
vMarwijk has to go; he had his time… the team needs to be rebuild
I’m with Goose!
Oranje still have lots of great talent to build around for WC-2014 and the U-21’s and younger have been performing well.
BVM made many mistakes, most if not all occured since he got his contract extension. Starting Willems yesterday was just foolish. Not that it lost us the game, it may have lost us a LB prospect forever! He may be ruined after the abuse on and off the pitch. Robben on the right as much as he was and Sneijder on the left at all was bad as well. Sniejder is a CM while Robben should be switching flanks OFTEN or on the left all the time.
As usual, I blame the KNVB for everything! Things were cruising along and it looked like UEFA was already writing our name on the trophy when the gave BVM his extension and things went down hill.
Now let me give the future some thought……………..
Oranje, did you notice at one moment Nani staring point blank at Willems like he wanted to kill him? Poor Jetro, so young and thrown right in the middle of the fire without the slightest of experience.
Thinking back on the qualifying round, wasn’t the Finland game the first real sign that something was off? They couldn’t dominate the game at all and Finns were very quick and sharp on their counter-attacks. I was already a bit worried then… And then the last game that we lost to the Swedes. The writing was on the wall already last year, we had plenty of time to think of solutions. We did *nothing*. Or rather, the head coach did nothing.
Winning Hides Flaws, And Losing reveals the Character of people.
yes in truth, lots of us were too optimistic and dismissed bad games because we were winning, i mean we beat finland twice, once 2-0, another 2-1, then moldova we beat them 1-0, and i can’t remember the other score. but we did play plenty of bad games. The only real exciting games we had were the first game against sweden when van bommel was still defying his age next to van der vaart, and the two hungary games where de jong and van der vaart next to each other proved we didn’t need van bommel.
Yes, agreed.
You could even go back as far as the last WC. We hardly played spectacularly then. This coach, this 4231, this stubborness was fine when we had some vibrancy, determination and team spirit. We were very hard to beat.
It couldn’t last though. Ageing legs, old differences, new egos, etc…
Now that our passion, our spirit and reputation lie in tatters, what hope is there for the future?
Well, we still have the basics of a good team. Not a great one.
We must reassess our expectations.
We must start again.
Germany went through this process 5 or 6 years ago – look at them now. They made a plan and they stuck with it. They didn’t just stumble across a good team. They created one. Counter attacking football doesn’t just play itself. They strategised it. They studied it. They got good at it from a young age. There was a collective National effort. The country worked as a team.
Sadly, I think it’s in the Dutch mentality to defeat ourselves in these tournaments. We are arrogant and single minded. We are brilliant and frustrating. We are individuals – commendable in any other situation, woefully inadequate in a team competition.
We haven’t been knocked out by bad luck, poor officiating, cheating opponents, etc… There is no-one to blame but ourselves.
The KNVB appointed Bert.
Bert had a plan – but no back-up. He’s stiffled our next generation too.
The players didn’t perform to their own individual standards.
The players did not perform as a team
This was a collective failure on all fronts – which most of us have seen coming for two years and more.
I agree with some comments made here that the key moment in the game, was when we allowed Cristiano and Nani to take the initiative. When those two got the confidence that they needed they started bullying Holland up and down and most importantly all the other Portuguese players started directing the ball to them. That was suicidal on Holland’s part.
On the contrary, Holland didn’t have anybody to relay on. Robben used to have this magical element 2 years ago but he lost it somehow, Sneijder releases the ball way too quickly. I saw Van de Vaart wanting to control and distribute but he lacked creativity and somehow (again) he ran out of gas.
We don’t have to dismantle this team entirely that (as well) will be suicidal for the future. This team lacks a Xabi Alonso (destroyer, control, contention and distribution of the ball), it lacks an Ozil (dynamic and creative), it lacks a terry (secure and authoritative) and it lacks a pure wing-man in the likes of Overmars. One that doesn’t care about scoring or not, but just wants to run at defenders and pass the ball when he sees fit. I don’t care if we get “top class” players or not for these positions but these are the skills they the coaching needs to be looking at.
I don’t want to roast Van der Wiel or Williems (but I want to see a fit Pieters in his place) they are still young, with some mentoring from the seniors they will get the idea and of course be more responsible. uh, and whoever comes in, I want either Stam, Reizeger or even Nouman to be in the coaching staff. This team needs a 101 on defending
Well said Gio. We need holding midfielders who are also excellent in building play like Xabi Alonso, Italy’s De Rossi or Cabaye of France. We also need central defenders that can push up and play the right ball. F De Boer and Stam were such players.
Talent is not an issue. There is plenty of talent in the current 23 member squad in Poland plus others that were not selected … and behind them we have a generation that reached three U-17 finals in the last 4 years, winning 2 of them. So definitely we don’t have a talent problem and that is already a good start. But we have to propose a different system, a system that is in harmony with Dutch footbal philosophy, something that can identify us with the rest of the world. This is not a bad moment for Dutch football … this is a great moment because we have the opportunity to stop, think and shape Dutch football for the years to come. Selecting the next national coach is the first step and we have to get it right.
Having watched some video compilations I definetely want to see more of Luuk de Jong and Van Wolfswinkel. Those guys look like they are playing with joy and de Jong seems more dynamic than Huntelaar in the box and more confident with the ball than Van Persie has been in the last major tournaments. It’s very reassuring that we have plenty of young offensive talent, but what I’m more worried about is the midfield and of course, especially the defense.
well said! Joy is the word i was looking for. When you see Persie or robben they always look like they have swallowed something nasty. I am especially tired of vpersie with his eternal discontent. We want players that feel its an honor to defend our colors. Not this bunch of pampered over the hill stars!
I am interested to know what Luuk de JOng thought of the euro, and the runnings of oranje in Poland, and it was good he , and Narsingh, was with the squad to learn. In 2 years hopefully we wont talk of van persie anymore.
Just as in 08 and in 10 he failed and he had a bad vibe around him. It was epecially upsetting to see him and Affelay training apart from the group all the time. That vMarwijk allowed this is one of his big mistakes in my view.
I want to see joy again , flair, passion, attacking!
It seems everyone makes valid points but no one is seeing the big picture. A failing defence is one side of the coin- a failing offence is not surprising.
Again, when your defence feels like they are weak, which they were, they hang back against their own box. IF you play with top class attackers that are used to pressurising, you are going to eliminate your own midfield. Hence people covered alot more distance without actually doing much, add to that V.Persie-vs-Huntelaar saga which left both quite insecure, wingers on the wrong sides and you get goals conceded + few goals scored.
Failing defence and Berts handling of 2 striker problem made for an impotent attack and non-existant midfield. Hence we saw everyone struggle, everyone but Sneijder, he naturally tended to drop down and distribute passes, but he can only do so much.
Our top attackers became the victim, not of their ego’s but of a very very poor backside. This and the striker debate split the team, which Sneijder desperately tried to keep together. With our attacking potential we should always play with one true controlling midfielder, and play with defence high up the pitch, it did not happen because we simply dont have the defenders for it.
I do not agree with people saying players should be suspended, they were frustrated by Bert and their own performance. I am disappointed for Bert not putting down the most logical formation, but when I see the underlying problems I cant help but think Bert had no clue what to do when his defensive trick of 2 controlling midfielders no longer worked.
Totally correct analysis Alex!!
It had nothing to do with egos, I agree.
Spot on Alex, well said!
You know, F-u to all these guys saying our players aren’t good enough. You don’t know dutch football then.
The problem wasn’t that we didn’t have players who could play defense, It was that BVM selected players who didn’t have it in them anymore.
The truth of the matter was mathijsen and Heitinga did great at the world cup, especially mathijsen. he shut david villa down. And what about samuel eto’o shut him down too. So don’t give me this bullshit about defense. Problem was
mathijsen at the world cup was 30, the tail end of his prime. Now he’s 32, two years past his prime. Heitinga, is 28, has two more years of being in his prime, and he played great with everton, but for some reason stunk it up.
Erik Pieters is better than you guys think, newcastle has forever been wanting him. and douglas.
Van der wiel, enough of him we know who he is.
the problem is the replacements, Ron Vlaar really?
Jetro Willems, Daley Blind, and Alexander Buttner were way better, Vurnon anita too who apparently has a 7 million pound offer for him by newcastle Emanuelson we all can agree not the best, but still an option.
so if you only look at the squad and don’t know about many dutch talents besides the few mentioned in the media
The Problems lies in BVM picking replacements for these guys. if you see bouma, and vlaar, and boulahrouz, you can think this generation is over, but it’s just not true
i meant the ron vlaar and jetro willems getting picked as really,
daley blind and alexander buttner, along with vurnon anita were better picks for left back
@ Onzie
Whoa man, very much disagree…If our offense had scored two goals in each game we would have not lost a single game…we would have ended up with 5 points.
Do you realize this???
Our offense scored TWO fucking goals in 3 games…we didnt score against a denmark team that gave up 5 goals against portugal and germany.
RVP is not good in orange shirt. period. he is not good enough to build a team around. period. i love his playing style and his skill, but he chokes more than anyone.
and Robben!!! jesus man, how many times can u dribble into the box and do nothing…seriously, he had Huntelaar wide open at one point and opted for a blocked shot…wtf.
Robben is not a true winger because he doesnt pass. OVermars was a winger,he passed and crossed. We need a winger and we need huntelaar to be more fluid in the box.
i’m talking about the defense, people saying the defense sucks
i never mentioned the offense sucking
i know about van persie, i don’t like him wearing orange, I think huntelaar is the best guy and kuyt too, i felt van persie and affellay had no business on the field.
But defensively heitinga and van bommel made mistakes. and now everyone is jumping on the defense, but in reality, van persie, very unclinical, scored 1 goal after gifted soo many chances,
and then people blame huntelaar and say he’s overrated, but how many chances nad balls did he get.
I mean shit, Van der vaart could have scored two goals.
@ Al:
I kind of agree.
I think a lot of teams have a moment where they realize their former stars are past their prime. They are so used to picking the same star players that it is hard to pry these players off the field without causing discord in the group.
But failure gives coaches an excuse to bench these players and give new talent a chance. I had been sayin for a while that other teams had many new talents on the field, but we did not…we had no new exciting players.
Where was Dost, Wolfswinkel, LDJ…these players werent even used as subs!!!
Why did Bert bring strootman, schaars, LDJ or Narsingh…i just dont get it. we had a crap ton of young talent on the bench, yet he sticks with the slow veterans…
I am sorry, this falls on Bert.
There is reason no other team ever had a 18 yr old at Euros. Unless he was playing at RM, he shouldnt be there.
i read somewhere that if arbeloa and/or jordi alba got suspended,del bosque might titularize pedro as a left back. this is exactly one thing we wanted from bert – if the defenders are not secure,and they are definitely not,he should have converted a holding midfielder or a kuyt-type striker/winger into a defender. kuyt,van bommel,strootmann could have played at the back at with their vision the build up would have been less predictable. in a way i blame bert because for him a defender is a defender,a midfielder is a midfieléder,etc – this is completely opposite to the total football philosophy,and using the players this way means their polyvalence is lost…
well said.
Paul, the more I think about it the more pissed off I become. Seriously, all these young talents who have already proved themselves: Luuk de Jong, Van Wolfswinkel, Narsingh. They didn’t get a minute of playtime (!) and lot of them didn’t even make it to the tournament.
@ Oh yea
What about Strootman? Sure his season w PSV wasnt the best but he played on a shit team (im a psv fan) with no fighting spirit that repeated the now annual psv collapse.
And so what if Denmark defeat upset them…SPAIN lost in the WC and went on to win, many teams lose a game and bounce back…are we such pansies, WTF!!!!! If normal people give up as much as these wimps, wed all be paralyzed.
And more internal discord…are u kidding me??? i want to smack robben in the head with a 2 by 4. you are past your prime and you do the same fucking thing over and over again.
Telling the coach to shut ur mouth? how about not killing every attack first.
Also, congratulations to Germany.
You kept up your end of the ‘deal’. We were just not in your league.
I duly apologise on behalf of my nation.
Also, big brother, next time we play, and I’m trying so hard to defeat you, please don’t hold my head at arms length while my own arms flail wildly from my shoulders like windmills in a hurricane. It’s frustrating. Just knock me the fuck out next time.
And Rafael Van Der Vaart. You scored a most beautiful goal (nearly two). Thank you for bestowing upon me that one small gift when so many others around you failed. You should have started and captained all our games.
And Johan, I know you cannot hear me. But, PLEASE.
Please.
We’re in a mess. We need you now. More than ever.
http://www.vi.nl/eknieuws/222903/Feyenoord-laat-Koeman-niet-gaan-als-KNVB-aanklopt.htm
apparently Ronaldo Koeman is the man for the job of holland. He’s said to be the leading candidate
How can guys still wanna see Robben, Van Persie…We have new talent, we have to rebuild otherwise it would be just like France 2010…
Let’s keep three players to start, to build the team around them : De Jong, Sneijder, Van der Vaart.
A 3-5-2 can be interesting :
——————Stekelenburg———————
–De Jong————Douglas———–Pieters—-
—————Strootman—-Clasie————–
——————Van der Vaart—————
–Afellay—————————–Boerrigter
———————–Sneijder—————–
——————L.De Jong——————
The lateral backs should defend very low, we don’t need them to attack, that’s why maybe it’s better to play without Van der Wiel. Two real players to defend, for the future I really expect Van Rhijn and Martins Indi to be those players, but I’m not sure they will be ready for 2014.
Two midfielders who are strong and who can play forward : Strootman and Clasie.They’ll bring the balance to the team, Strootman has a good presence at the midfield and Clasie is a real fighter who can also really good play football, one player who lead the play : Van der Vaart, as he did it yesterday during 20 first minutes…Two players to bring speed on the sides and who can give good assists : Afellay and Boerrigter, let’s think about Narsingh and John too.
Sneijder who plays just behind Luuk, to shot or to give him good balls, and De Jong as forward, he is a complete player and he is probably moving to a good club this summer to progress.
@ Laurent, Boerrigter is over 25, and building a completely new team is quite a long project, lets say 4 – 6 years.
I would not promote cutting out 3 top players, since we already are thin on those.
I like this formation! Some of the players not so much. More from me on this later.
i like your formation, its time to mix it up a bit- can you coach them? (:
1) Thanks Jan for blogging so well and setting up a great new website for the Anglo-Dutch.
2) Logistics – That’s what killed KNVB this tourney. It wasn’t a coincidence that they started each match well and then fell apart. That the strikers were just that tiny touch off. Flying 1,000 miles each way for each match was just stupid. Probably the coach’s fault for not saying – what are you crazy – why are we planning to train in Poland when we play in another country?
And that followed lots of traveling for exhibition games. Can the garbage games – before a big tournament Oranje has to focus on giving their club players a chance to gell as a team, nurse injuried and get into match fitness.
They were spent before the first game.
3) Subs – he left Narsingh on the bench? Why no fresh legs after Affelay? He gave up.
4) Defense – all that experimentation didn’t work obviously – but neither did the 2 holding mid-fielders. But – to point #1 – if they had just settled in one place for 3 weeks – well they’d have had a bit more time to focus.
5) It’s 4 losses in a row in real games. JC might be too old, but that certainly would be an option.
I would agree on those points, defence was the main reason we never got to benefit from our main strength: attaack. And I dont think the travelling helped. Everything contributed to draining strength, stamina and making otherwise top players quite hopeless.
Ronald Koeman…ugh, that guy man.
Flopped with Valencia, did ok w PSV and is doing well with Feyenoord.
Really? I cringe at the thought of Ronald Koeman, this guy was a laughing stock a few years back!
Amen
Me too has had enough of v Persie, just as in 08 and in 10 he failed and he had a bad vibe around him.
And why did vmarwijk allow that he and Affelay trained together seperate from the group? It goes against all principles of team building, team spirit and team psychology, and I think its one of his big mistakes. No wonder there never was a team on the field. The coach should let them watch tape of greece, no talent but 11 players fighting together.
I want to see joy again , flair, passion, attacking!
@ dutch dream:
thats exactly what we need, a team.
if we take our talent and have an actual team, then we will be good again.
Our team was exactly like france. discord and no co-hesion.
time for new blood.
Haven’t these guys learned the lesson that theres simply no an “I” in the word “TEAM”!
As a Dutch supporter from the eighties till continuum, watching Holland in this competition was like seeing a Battle in each game. A battle with two armies. Both armies had weaknesses and strengths. However one of the armies had forgotten some important elements necessary in combat: food (energy), amunition (fire power) and don’t talk back to your commanders (no egos).
I feel especially bad cos last night in downtown amsterdam spanish fans were dancing in the street with joy and kicking dutch flags. First I thought they were portos but they talked spanish and I realised they were so happy cos they were relieved we were out. I wondered why but I know now that they were as afraid of holland as we were of spain… they saw our potential and feared us themost, more than germany…but our top players let it all go to waste.
Now i read robben shouted at the coach!… he must be susspended by the knvb for 5 or 6 games.
When leaving the game yesterday, which we watched at our local Dutch/Canadian Club, we had several cars full of Portugese fans drive by with their flags waving and cheering. This upset my kids who are 7 and 9 and my youngest, who was very disappointed said he didn’t want to wear his orange shirt anymore.
For me, his disappointment hurt even more but I told him to leave his shirt on and be proud of who we are.
So we lost, very poorly. But changes will come and we’ll have happier moments again.
I will still continue to bleed Orange and wear my Orange shirts when I can. I’ll continue to hear others say that my short is bright and wait until that day when everyone else jumps on our bandwagon again.
Yeah, losing sucks and these three losses really sucked, but some good things will come out of it. Every team has gone through it and we still have enough very good pieces to build around.
The future is as bright as my Orange shirts…
Hup Holland!
Indeed its worst for all the kids who basically see an embarassingly bad oranje.
@Fred I undertand your feeling, its so hard for a young child… as a father you will do everything to make him smile again.. But you did the right thing.
Interestingly my 9 year old daughter was much more nervous than me. Whenever I complained about something in Holland play she would ask me to stop it and watch the game because she couldn’t take it. She basically chewed all her fingernails and I had to calm her down.
Paul:
Yeah, I thought Strootman deserved Van Bommel’s spot already a long time ago, it’s sheer stupidity to keep him on the bench. He also didn’t get a single minute of playtime in this EC. Ridiculous…
So I was at the US Open golf yesterday, purposely skipping to watch the match live on TV because I couldn’t watch any Oranje match with less than 100% concentration. I caught a glimpse of 1-0 when I was inside the club tent ordering food and smiled (OK, this is what I’m talking about). Then when I got in front of the line, it was 1-1. I couldn’t help looking more at the TV and saw immediate panic/chaos.
Tried to get my mind off the Oranje by getting out of the club tent (no cellphone/internet policy) but could not concentrate on the live golf either. When I got out and picked up my cellphone, immediately saw texts from my friends, I was not sure because they were a lot of them but one caught my eyes it started with “OMG ….” OMG is good, right? meaning we did it? Unfortunately, it is followed by “…. the Oranje was pathetic, you were lucky you didn’t watch the match live, yada, yada ….”. And this one came from a friend that is also a strong supporter of the Oranje. Almost hit random people around me and immediately erased all texts without reading them. Still couldn’t escape the emails/Facebook abuses, though.
What’s next for us? I think in some ways, this really exposed flaws in our whole system (coaching, tactics, player selections, etc.) Interesting that BvM or Wiel said “don’t know what’s wrong”, that is because EVERYTHING is wrong! including lucks did not go our way in the Denmark match. I still think if we had beaten Denmark – as we should have – we would have got a different tournament.
The way I see it now, KNVB needs a total overhaul. We can’t do band-aid fixes to cure “cancer”. Some will point out “but we were World Cup runner up 2 years ago”, to which I say “well, as much as I was happy we made it to the Finals, it was obvious we were outplayed/classed by Spain”. Opposite to this year, 2 years ago, we had quite a few “luck” (or whatever you call it) went out way.
We are now no different than Spain or France were in the 80s-90s, always considered as favorites, played offensive beautiful football but always lost at the end. If you think about it, there are only 2 football nations that have historically been very “consistent”: Brazil and Germany. After 1982, people said nobody wants to be a defender or goalkeeper in Brazil, they overhauled their system and played “pragmatic” football under Dunga. Germany was in a slump only for a short period of time, they were never as “talented” as Oranje, France or Spain but one common thread I see with them is they usually beat teams they are supposed to beat, i.e.: high level of consistency. Argentina is always good on paper but other than 1978/1986 (both questionable victories) they haven’t done much.England is no better than us either.
As depressed as I am right now – and will be until the final on Jul 1 – I suppose I can take solace in the concept that things can’t get any worse than this. I don’t know what should be done, which coach should take over, which players should stay, which system we should play, etc. but one thing as an Oranje-bleeder I’m sure of is we will NEVER be short of talents in football. We just need to find a way to get these talents to play together as a cohesive unit. The next coach, Koeman, Rijkaard, de Boer, Adriansee, Cocu, Guardiola, van Gaal or Hiddink should be given a “carte blanche” of selecting players/system they believe in. Keep politics out of the KNVB and let them instill their system in a 2-4 year plan for longevity, i.e.: do not fire them if we don’t do well in World Cup 2014. The goal should be EURO 2016 and if we can achieve the target earlier in 2014 that should be treated as a bonus. And I disagree with NOT selecting Pep Guardiola because he’s not Dutch. It is a global world today and if he’s the best available, we should get him Dutch or not. Like most of you, I also wish that JC14 would be our coach but if you think about it, how many years has he been out of the circle?
We just need to instill the mentality of “we want it more”. I’m not Dutch and I can’t claim that I’m a psychologist but I find lots of truth in that Spiegel article posted here last week. It is also in my experience based on interactions with my friends/co-workers who are Dutch that they are mostly happy/easy-going people, which is great for life but may not be too great in competition.
At the end, some would say “it’s only football and life will move on”, which is true but still can’t cure the pain! (I will try to “enjoy” the rest of the EURO although honestly I really don’t give a d@mn anymore)
Still and will always be bleeding Oranje!
Is there anyone else out there who thinks this is a serious reversal (like 1980) and there maybe a grim few years ahead. After Euro 2004 we could all see it was time for a revamp but then VDV, Sneijder, Robben and Heitinga were already in the squad so Marco had something to build on. Now there is young talent on the horizen but it’s nowhere near Oranje standard. Holland gave the world fluid dynamic football and need to get back to that and away from BvM’s rigid orthodoxy.
If you watch the eredivese it is. very dark indeed. As soon as a player has some skill and proves something (not even on a consistent basis) ‘bigger’ clubs like hamburg, russian clubs, portugese clubs will come and get him. The problem is, you cannot put a winning team together anymore at a euro or worldcup without a strong league. The laws are changing, however, in Europe. The EU will introduce many more regulations which will affect football, so these clubs will be able to keep the talent there longer. The problem is not that they don’t have people involved in football, as per capita they still are the highest nation in europe involved in some form of footy. The problem is they leave too early, leaving the dutch league completely depleted of any good players. Watching dutch league matches is like watching the national team in practice. No offense to any eredivise fan but I’m just old enough to remember better times.
So, in reality, yes, it is a bit dark. But not exactly like in 1980. Today we live in a very fast moving world. There is no reason why Oranje can’t pull off a greece or check republic in the world cup. It all depends on many factors.
The MAIN thing they should work on, is OBEDIENCE. Regardless of how good a player you are, you do not lash out at your coach. You accept your position. For goodness sake, the Spanish team is made of stars (real ones)and you only see smiles on their faces regardless of how much playing time they are allowed. I disagree with some that say this is DUTCH CULTURE. IT IS NOT!!!!
Spain is way more divided than the low countries. In fact, if spain was cut up in 8 different countries tomorrow, you would never believe that they actually were once ONE nation. That is how different the spanish are as you travel from one province to the next.
So, that is not an excuse!!!!!!
For those of you want Oranje to play 4-3-3, the coach who will play this probably comes from JC’s school. Perhaps Frank De Boer, but it is early for him. Perhaps Frank Rijkaard again. I still do not understand why this team can play like that Sweden game in qualification?
Perhaps there were some disagreements but I do not think single out players will help. I think the system fail. Jan said it before. Holland is a small country and cannot be compared to France, Italy, Spain or Germany. Rebuilt, yes, at what cost, missing WC2014 so we can be better in Euro 2016? Would KNVB rebuild like France? I doubt it. I still think rebuild the defense is the first task. Sneijder, VDV, Afellay, Van Persie, Robben and Hunter are still valuable for this team. Qualified first then perhaps try the youngster at WC so they can get experience. I wonder if JC can be a consultant to the national team like he does with Ajax? Obviously he and KNVB has their differences. If they can make peace…
It seems everyone makes valid points but no one is seeing the big picture. A failing defence is one side of the coin- a failing offence is not surprising.
Again, when your defence feels like they are weak, which they were, they hang back against their own box. IF you play with top class attackers that are used to pressurising, you are going to eliminate your own midfield. Hence people covered alot more distance without actually doing much, add to that V.Persie-vs-Huntelaar saga which left both quite insecure, wingers on the wrong sides and you get goals conceded + few goals scored.
Failing defence and Berts handling of 2 striker problem made for an impotent attack and non-existant midfield. Hence we saw everyone struggle, everyone but Sneijder, he naturally tended to drop down and distribute passes, but he can only do so much.
Our top attackers became the victim, not of their ego’s but of a very very poor backside. This and the striker debate split the team, which Sneijder desperately tried to keep together. With our attacking potential we should always play with one true controlling midfielder, and play with defence high up the pitch, it did not happen because we simply dont have the defenders for it.
I do not agree with people saying players should be suspended, they were frustrated by Bert and their own performance. I am disappointed for Bert not putting down the most logical formation, but when I see the underlying problems I cant help but think Bert had no clue what to do when his defensive trick of 2 controlling midfielders no longer worked.
Ego’s have played just a minor role, I saw no ego’s, just no will to win, no conviction and very tired players. I only heard players complaining to media, and strikers about defenders, and defenders about strikers. This team was split between a top attacking array, and a very very poor defensive side. Midfield ? that was Wesley Sneijder for a bit..
Today we are all disappointed and angry. But I think: Its ok if a player shouts something but to tell your coach to shut up is over the line, The coach is there to instruct the players. Besides Van Marwijk was right, when Robben stopped defending the team got into big problems expecially vd Wiel who was coping with 2 guy all the time, one of them Ronaldo. That was why vd WIel was o angry after the game. The first 20 mins were great cos Robben defended and assisted vd Wiel, when he stopped doing that we crashed.
Dear o Dear….Remember Andy van der meyde, how much shite everyone used to give him. I bet even on his ’04 form, he would have been able to put in a decent cross or two in this disastrous campaign.
I always thought that one thing Bert was good at was team management as in managing egos and making the strong individualities play as one. This time he failed. I may be wrong but I truly believe the atmosphere was excellent before the Denmark game. We had just beaten Slovakia and Northern Ireland and all was going well. Watch the first 20 min of the Denmark game and you will see a team full of confidence. You will see movement off the ball, Willems shooting a rocket from 25 yards or making a cross filed pass to Robben that was brilliant, chances to score being created left and right,….and then the goal by Krohn-Deli. The team never reacted as a team. Instead of a block the team became 11 individuals. Sure we created a chance here and there but they did not go in and teh fracture in the team became apparent. Wes gave 2 or 3 fantastic passes for KJH and VP that they squandered. Game over. After the Denmark game, you could see it in the players’ faces. They did not believe any more. Bert had a sort of mutiny on his hands. He was unable to motivate them and reinstate the self belief. This is why his position is grave today. He is no longer able to unify them. But if he goes, then who can take over? I asked that question yesterday there is nobody out there. There is serious paucity of high level Dutch coaches. Hopefully this will awaken the KNVB as the horrible results of Germany at the Euro 2004 did for Germany. A plan was created and look at them now.
Guys, I remember the Dutch B team dismantle the U21 German team with all the great players of today. This was in March 2009…only 3 years ago. Amazing! Who could have predicted such a precipitous decline?
For me Bert Van Marwijk didn´t realice that after WC 2010 this team needed a realigment specially at the back. He kept the same players and that was his worst mistake because at Euro 2012 it showed that Holland´s defence was simply poor. Van Marwijk didn´t even realice that during the games…for example, after 20 minutes you could see Ronaldo having fun vs Van der Wiel. For having sake!!! Bench him and throw Kuyt or Boulah out there!!!
It´s plain and simple: Van Marwijk was responsible for this failure but the players didn´t seem to want to help him either. I think tough calls have to made right now. One of them is to say goodbye to BVM.
Other tough calls will have to be made in team selection. There are some “stars” that think that the sky do not deserve them. Like Van Basten did when he entered the helm, he defined some players to work with and axe the holly cows. That has to be done this time. For example, the old ones like Van Bommel, Kuyt, Mathijsen have to go now. And players who still are not that old but seem not to care that much have to be axed from now on and will only be recalled if they beg to be in the team and show week in and week out that their level deserves an Oranje call…I am thinking in Van Persie here and some others too.
About the future. I stay positive as always. When J Cruyff, Van Hanagem, Neeskens generation was melting then we got Van Basten´s, Gullit, Rijkaard, Koeman generation and soon after that the Dennis Bergkamp´s, De Boer´s, Davids, Kluivert´s and so on. Then Robben, Sneijder, Van Persie, Rafa, etc. The big difference from all this generation to the current one is that since the retirement of De Boer and Stam the coaches have stuck to average defenders when we all know there are better options out there. What I am trying to say here is that while this generation is getting old, there are certainly newcomers with hunger and passion that will take their opportunity. Strootman, de Vrij, Classie, Maher, Ola Jonh, Krul, Douglas, Willems and many more will have their time and the new coach will have to be very intelligent to introduce newcomers while deciding which players of the actual team has to keep in the squad.
I am thinking in this formation for the WC2014 qualifiers and for the inmediate future (4-3-3).
1- Krul
2- De Vrij
3- Douglas
4- Fer (not a real defender but to build from the back like Rijkaard)
5- Pieters
6- Classie
7- John
8- Strootman
9- Huntelaar (bye RVP for a while or maybe forever)
10- Sneijder
11- Robben (has to rediscover his best form)
The name of the players can be a debate but if you see there are good options out there and there are many more as you guys have listed. This Euro was a disgrace for an Oranje fan, I am very mad and dissapointed but the preparation, the condition of the players and team spirit was gone from day one. And the results we had are the consequences of all that.
I will remind Bert Van Marwijk as a good coach until 2010 but a person who didn´t take risks after the WC final and didn´t know how to keep the team spirit high in this competition and completely lost control of the squad. Losing against Denmark was a shock but not playing with passion was a double shock!
Perhaps this happened so that the KNVB and all the Netherlands scouts, the Eredivisie and many more things change radically and start worrying to implement new stuff. The newcomers will give somo boost and hunger to the team and it´s mandatory to fire BVM or that he resigns because with him the pressure will be inmense. I don´t have a favorite candidate but I am thinking in De Boer. He has character, balls, has the vision of a defender to build a new defence and is a very respected personality…a winner. A fresh start is necessary.
From now on I will just follow some parts of the Euro, I don´t really care who wins.
One more point…do u guys remember a friendly vs Ukraine just after WC2010…Van Marwijk tried many young guns. He knew exactly which yound lads were hot at the moment but very few of them reached the Euro! At this time my friends, it´s stupid to set the goal of winning the WC. It´s better to concentrate in shaping a new team capable of getting consistent results, qualify for the WC with a humble approach of saying, I am not favorite, I just want to show the world that I can. And go for it rather to say, I am here to win the World Cup. After this fucking tournament it has be step by step with a lot of humility.
Hup Holland!
We are all disappointed but it would be interesting to know which teams Dutch fans support after Holland is eliminated … Jan can you set up a poll to declare the 2nd team for Dutch supporters ?
1) They were too tired – still holding to the logistics were fouled up argument. Tired guys are cranky. Losing tired guys are even more cranky. Stekenlenbery was uitstekend (couldn’t resist) but everyone else fell apart.
It’s not an easy job coaching a team, but I’d guess if the guys had traveled less and trained more – they wouldn’t have bickered as much. Let’s face it – you work your butt off for a long season – go represent your country more or less for free – and it all falls apart, well in my book you’re allowed to be angry.
2) It’s really tough scoring moving full blast. Every striker is going to miss – that goes with the territory. You have to aim at the corners while moving full tilt. It’s hard.
3)Subs – I still don’t get why 2 were left on the bench. He surrendered – waved the red flag. Robben and lots of others were tempting targets.
Al, I only support this Dutch team. I may watch the rest of Euro. Which team would I like to see to win this Euro after the Dutch team fail? Perhaps Croatia and Germany but I will not support them.
If you all think the system fail then you drop all of these players and bringing other players then they will fail as well. Replace the system, playing 4-3-3 and this means new coaching staff. Get JC to be the consultant is the first step.
I have no idea who to route for to be honest…definitely not:
1. Portugal
2. Germany
3. Croatia
4. Italy
5. Greece
6. Czech
so…that leaves england or france, and the french are annoying, so maybe england is the only team i could route for…
Someone mentioned Guardiola. I think that would be an excellent choice IMHO. I know a lot of people do not want a foreign coach but I think we should go with who is available and who is the best candidate.
Pep just finished an unbelievably successful period with Barcelona. That is the ideal or utopian team that every Oranje fan would like to see. A team that is free flowing and scores a ton of goals. Of course, we would need the right players to make it work. No coach would be successful without the right personnel to make it happen.
Pep is a believer in the Cryuff philosophy. I doubt Cryuff himself would take over at this time. If he really wanted to coach he would have definitely done it in the past.
Anyways, it’s not finalized that BVM is sacked. I doubt that he’ll resign on his own unless a major player revolt forces him to get out. However, it does seem that the Federation would let him go if they find an able replacement. I doubt he’ll be fired for the sake of firing. Maybe they have a contingency plan for someone to take over. We’ll find out soon as the WC qualifiers will begin in September. Whoever comes in to take over will need some time to reorganize and tryout fresh faces.
In the end, let’s hope it all works out for the best. We love this team no matter what and we want what’s best for them.
i dont think JC is the answer.
Sure 433 sounds great…but we dont have the support at the back to do it just yet, maybe in 3-4 years…i think he is utopian and ever more stubborn than BVM
I don´t think our problems are our players, except in defense.
We play the same 4-2-3-1 than Germany, except we have better players:
• Huntelaar is better than Gomez by far.
• Robben is better than Podolsky by soooo far
• Van Persie is better than Muller
• Sneijder is better than Ozyl
• Van Bommel / Nigel duo is like the same than Swei.. and Kedhira (better in defense, worse in offense)
• German defense is better and younger.
So, we need to improve as a team. The solutions is not change only our tactics and players.
I full support our players. Stekelembur is a great goalpkeerper, Sneijder is in my point of view, one of the 3 best number 10 in the world right now.
We need to solve 2 big problems:
1. Midfield. And it`s ironic because we have plenty of wonderful players there; Maybe we need a dynamic and creative midfield.
2. Defense. We need give time to new ones, Maybe Douglas, Viergiver, Bruma, Heitinga, Van Rijhs, etc. It will be interesting if Advocaat made Strootman his new center back. PSV urgent need new center back!
I think we have to maintain our best players, like Sneijder, Persie, Hunter, De Jong, all this player that will be in good age for WC 2014 and around them add the new ones: Clasie, Narsingh, Ola John, Wolk… etc.
interesting “better” comparisons…ok..i’ll bite…
1)Gomez is younger than Hunter, plays for a much better club, plays CL. Gomez 2 goals, HUNTER…ZEROOOOOO in Euros. Gomes, would have buried that chance vs the danes that Hunter got.
2)Comparing Robben and Podolski isnt fair since they are different kinds of players. But even so, Podolski ONE goal, ROBBEN..ZEROOOOOO
3)Muller is OBEDIENT. He does and plays whatever the coach tells him. Van Persie needs the world to be at piece and silent, and his pillow fluffed by a portugese maid every morning in order to eat his cereal and make contact with the round thing they call ball. Muller scroes Bayerns goal for UCL final, Van persie outclassed by danish defenders!
4)Sneijder better than OZIL?! Which sneijder? The 2010 or the one last night?! OZIL plays for REAL, a team that sold off Sneijder. REAL wouldn’t take Sneijder back even as a bencher now. Snjeider had a very poor season with Inter who were an incredibly bad team by their own standard in Seria A, a league that has slipped in popularity to the Bundesliga!
5) Comparing bommel to khedira is like comparing….errrr….BOMMEL to KHEDIRA!!!! Are you kidding? One plays for RM the other helped AC milan clinch second spot in Seria A and no other titles. Also, has a contract with PSV, a club in a secondary league!
6)You are correct!
J. 100% agreed.
WHen I look at pics of Ronaldo up close he resembles Michael Jackson.
@Paul,
this is what I hate after my team is eliminated. It’s not who would I like to see win the trophy but who would I like to not see win it?
Spain
They had enough. 2008, 2010 and now 2012? There’ll be too much bragging if they win it this year.
Germany
As an Oranje fan, I naturally do not want to see them win the trophy. Although this team is very talented and they have been on a mission since 2006.
Portugal
They have been a bogey team for us lately. Yesterday’s game was much more civilized than the 2006 encounter. This team was too easy for them to breakdown defensively. They didn’t have to resort to bullying tactics. I just don’t want to see Portugal win anyways.
England
Always overhyped by their media that seems to dominate European and World news outlets. Nothing special about this team. They barely managed to beat Sweden. I doubt they’ll be lifting the trophy but you never know.
Italy
A team in the past that I have always been annoyed with by their style of play. This Prandelli team seems to play differently. I doubt they have enough to win the whole thing.
I don’t care really about Croatia or Greece.
I wouldn’t mind Czechs winnng it but they are not going to.
I think France is my surprise team to win this tournament. That is if Spain doesn’t. They seem to have their act together after a disastrous 2010 campaign. They have a solid team in almost all positions and a good bench to go with it. Their coach is also doing the right things so far. If it was Germany and France in the final, I think France will come out on top. That’s just my opinion.
I think Gio would be an excellent coach. He is a defender, a fighter, and was always hungry for victory. The problems were all in the back and we need someone who can help us defensively.
I know he is young and inexperienced as manager but he was team captain and for good reason. He read the game well, and always executed the game plan.
Giovanni van Bronckhorst for manager….
Jan, thanks again for this blog. At least we can share our ideas here about the future of the team and hopefully win the world cup when Sneijder is captain!
I would really like Frank de Boer. What’s Dennis Bergkamp doing?
Gio could be a good fit, but can he coach?
What’s Dennis Bergkamp doing?
Wild guess: NOT flying!
looooool
@Paul,
what did you honestly think of Steks’ performance yesterday? You were on a crusade here a couple of days ago against him.
A quick summary of dutch media after the debacle:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jun/18/euro-2012-paper-review-holland
According to The Guardian there has also been unrest in the dressing room as per Robben.
I love Steks, he gave us a huge opportunity to win… he should never have been given all the smack people gave him here, Stek is a winner in my eyes.. and played through injury… he will probably have shoulder surgery now….
ALSO. I think we need to eliminate all these blog headers and start with “ROAD TO THE FINAL IN BRAZIL” to help us recover from this misery/disaster….
@Bitterballen
why would you want someone who has never been tested as a coach? Just because you feel like he would be a good coach? This is not the time to take a huge gamble. We need proven and tested leadership that has achieved success. We have seen so many great players who became flops as coaches. Whether it’s football or any other team sport for that matter.
We don’t even know if he wants to coach. I know there are players who made the transition to coaching without any prior coaching experience. Klinsmann, Blanc etc…it’s always hit or miss. It’s much more risky.
These group of players have a lot of ego. You need someone who is well respected and won as a coach. My choice would be Guardiola. IDK if he wants to jump right back into coaching but he would have a great talent pool to work with. Dutch players are of course very familiar with his style and philosophy of play. He won everything out there to win at the club level. This would be a very good challenge to prove himself at the international level which would complete his resume.
We can all try to find the reasons for this failure and am sure will come with 100 excuses. Fact however is that this is the worst failure in Dutch football history. Never before a dutch team has left a tournament with 0 points, never has lost 3 games in a row, never before a WC finalist has fallen so badly in 2 years time. Regardless of whose fault it is the manager is the first to go. Unfortunately Bert’s legacy has been tarnished terribly. The success of 2 years ago has been wiped out by this ugly exit.
Co Adriaanse would be my choice. No more Van Gaal, no Koeman, Rijkaard has removed himself with the coaching choices he has made recently.
@Eduardo -´ Maybe we need a dynamic and creative midfield. ´ Agreed, this we must change gradually
I am hoping for this midfield:
Anita Sneijder Strootman Maher
Lots of movement, control and build up. Strootman for power and passion. Maher for skill passing and finishing
back up: N De Jong, vdVaart, Clasie, S de Jong
From Wiki about Co Adriaanse:
Adriaanse is famous for his controversial training approach. At Willem II, he once ordered his whole squad to follow him by car, while they drove 13 km away from their training ground. At a remote spot, all players had to give their car keys to Adriaanse. Then he drove back to town, while the squad had to run in front of his car. Back at the training ground, the players got their car keys back. However, since their cars were still parked far from the training ground, they all had to walk back another 13 km.[6] At AZ Alkmaar he once ordered the whole squad to search for Easter eggs during a training session. They looked for an hour until Co Adriaanse finally revealed there were no eggs hidden.[7] Adriaanse already had these strange training methods at the start of his career, because when he was a youth trainer at Ajax, he sometimes ordered his players to lay on the ground. Then a teammate (with football boots on) would run over the bodies.[8] Because of all these infamous incidents, Adriaanse is sometimes nicknamed “Psycho Co”.
Perfect attacking coach, nuts too !!
The 2 first examples are well known but I think the third is nonsense, and never heard of this before and I follow Adriaanse since 10 yrs or so. To let players run with studs on their buddies would be outrageous. Adriaanse is eccentric, hardheaded, but not crazy.
VdV should be nowhere near the future team. don’t think huntelaar should stick around and neither should robben…
@dutch dream, i like your MF lineup but i much rather vdv depart.. he is finished and has his 100 caps, thanks but no thanks, bye.
@ samDC i don’t think pep has it in his heart to coach a national team other than spain..
i also think the future coach needs to do what Klinsman did and introduce them to basketball so they can practice defense at NBA level.
My biggest fear now is that this performance lingers into the qualifiers. Especially with domestic seasons starting in August, these players would be even more cautious to protect themselves.
I think in the end, the players deserve more blame than BVM. A lot of people castigated him for being too rigid and too defensive minded but I think a lot of questions were answered yesterday. Some people just can’t see what a horrible defense we have and why he had to do what he did.
However, after such a shameful defeat and exit from the tournament, whether it’s the coach’s fault or not, he just has to go. Half the team just don’t want him to continue. I’m sure he has players in the team that support him but it’s better to start with someone new.
A blank page to start a new chapter.
Holland should be fine for WC qualifiers, I would think–too much talent. The problem is, you can beat inferior teams by simply putting better players on the field, usually, BUT when you are playing good teams, or are in the Group of Death, you need to have everything in order–and Holland was all out of sorts in this tourney and did not have the personnel, chemistry, fitness to beat good teams.
maybe they need some tough teams in their qualifiers to be better prepared for tough teams in the finals…. makes total sense.
Bitterballen,
Pep is a Catalan. I doubt he would be so nationalistic about coaching Spain. There’s a lot of domestic politics and some lingering animosity. They even have their own Catalan national team even though it doesn’t compete in official matches as they are not a UEFA member team.
I am not in the favor, of getting guardiola, at Barca he had world class players and messi along and had all the foundations laid by Frank Rickard …. am not sure he will make it with Holland…
we need a coach, who has an attacking flair, who understands that if our defense is weak, then we need to attack to relieve the pressure from our defense …
i know Robben and VP are good players, but players should not be credited for their star status rather, than their addition on the field… honestly it think it is time for a good calculation and to know what each player would offer and relive from the squad all the hard headed and selfish players ….
On a positive note for Dutch football, Ajax and maybe Feyenoord will both be in the champions league next season. It’ll definitely be a good measuring stick to see how well they cope with the challenge. A good performance and progress into the knockout rounds will give our players good exposure and increase their marketability. I would like to see how our defenders handle themselves. I don’t think that success in the Eredivise alone is a good indicator of our future talent for Oranje.
@Bitterballen:
I would love Holland to win the WC in 2014 but right now the priority is to restablish team spirit, change and introduce many players and bring in a new coach and go step by step.
There are many Dutch coaches better than Van Marwijk. If we remember, when Van Marwijk took over Van Basten many of us were skeptical but he did very well in 2010. Now, for the guys who are saying it´s time for Cruyff, Johan will never coach again in his life. He didn´t do it in WC 1994 when he was supposed to take the role and certainly won´t do it now, he is retired from coaching, he has said that many times. Guardiola of course will be a perfect choice but I don´t think the KNVB will contact him unless Johan sends an advice.
There will be a new coach, I don´t know if that is inmediate but Van Marwijk won´t be able to coach this team anymore. The players don´t want him! And we either! He had his good moments but at least I am done with him.
All top nations have underachieved recently badly. Oranje was used to progress first round without much trouble recently and now this. This had to happen in order to awake and take actions to define a new path, a new era.
I don’t believe we should cutoff our starts completely. Yes this was a horrible performance from them but we all know what they are capable of. We need a coach that will bring the best out of them. A coach that has the courage to reward performance above all. No more playing favorites or reputations. Every player needs to know that they have a fair shot.
@ SamDC:
1. Steks was good yesterday…but that just means he in inconsistent. you cannot be shit two games, then good one game and get the starting role…not good enough.
2. The stars should not be cutoff, but, they should not get a starting place due t their status.
3. Robben is very talented, but his game has changed. He is too predictable. Not sure why people argue this. Watch the games again, he cannot get by an opponent and he does not cross the ball. He had two nice passes in the tourney, BOTH led to goals…hmmm…maybe if he passed more we would score more? just a hint, but hes too old to change now
Again, JC would not be a good coach, he lives in the past.
I seriously would like to take Robben, beat the shit out of him until he understands that his game has changed. He needs to be more a playmaker, where he is EXTREMELY talented.
But he cannot be a one trick pony, it kills the attack…i wouldnt mind robben coming inside more from the top of the box and then laying the ball off outside to RVP for a give and go finishing himself…that would be very deadly combo…but instead he gives the fans all souvenirs
@Paul
Steks had one bad decision against Germany. The 2nd Gomez goal. Even that was because of Willems failure to challenge Gomez. He lost his man. Steks was exposed. Of course, he should have done better. Goal he conceded against Denmark was completely the fault of Heitinga and Vlaar.
At the moment, I really do not want to see him replaced. If you analyze and dissect some of the goals Krul conceded at Newcastle this season, you can say the same things. One second he makes a great save and the next one he fumbles or could have done better.
Steks is now our most experienced goalkeeper. He came into this tournament after a recent injury. I would like to see him move to a better team and play CL football. IMO, he has done admirably well despite playing behind one of the worst defenses I have ever seen at this level.
Will Holland ever be able to play some version of “Total Football” again at the senior international level?
The teams that have been most recently successful utilizing our favored fluid, attacking, high pressing style, with lots of movement off the ball and positional interchange are Spain and Germany, the teams that have re-united their strongest club sides on their national teams.
As we’ve discussed, Holland’s starting 11 included players from 11 different club teams. And with the top players rarely staying in Holland, it seems unlikely that those players will ever be familiar enough with each other to develop that type of movement, trust and understanding.
Perhaps this particular team’s failure was due to poor coaching, lack of quality defenders or internal strife, but it seems that Holland’s greatest innovation and contribution to the sport may be beyond their own national team to emulate at this point.
Can any of you football players explain something to me:
When we were up 1-0, why did we not sit back and hold possession for a while… there was no urgency to push forward and give away cheap possession.. i remember at one point Jetro was in his own half and opted for keeping a difficult ball in play and rocketing it over to the other half when he should have just let it go out of play to maintain possession. The players did not even try to keep the ball, they over kicked it, under-passed it, gave it away, etc. This seems like basic possession football to me, no? How come they attacked as if their lives depended on it right after scoring the first goal?? They merely needed to hold the ball, develop from the back, and slowly move the ball up… This baffles me…. I cannot understand it… I know after 20 mins in each game we lost it blah blah blah, we were deflated, etc. but that is not an excuse to give up the ball for no reason!!
>Can any of you football players explain something to me:
>When we were up 1-0, why did we not sit back and hold possession for a while… there was no urgency to push forward and give away cheap possession
you can say that for all the games we played lately. Why such urgency to attack all the time/right away.
Absolutely zero patience… and this strikes me even more since our physical condition was not that great. We could be more low key and attack when it suits us. But no…
anyhow. picking up the pieces today.
@Paul I think his best phase was beginnning second half, he started very well on the left and every time he brought danger, but after some time he collapsed like the others, invisible like vd Vaart and vPersie.
Robben should go back to basics, in his good times with Bayern he not only scored but gave a lot of assists too. It is not that he forgot, but when he is insecure, out of shape, dicontent he goes for himself. His shots were pathetic, his passing very effective, it was sad to see he made the wrong choice every time.
@JB Portugal’s players also play for different club teams…. as do france players…
@JB Portugal’s players also play for different club teams…. as do france players…
—–
I also wrote here that I think it will serve the Oranje better if we build the squad via Eredivisie top players as the core.
I don’t think this concept applies to all countries – Portugal/France as you stated plus Brazil of course – but it surely applies to Spain and Germany. Everything being equal, I don’t think it will hurt.
The optimal strategy may be a combination of 6-8 players from Ajax/PSV/Feyenoord, etc. plus 3-5 “superstars” playing in top teams?
No other team to support for me.
Spain has won too much recently, Portugal is probably my #1 nemesis now, England/France are equally-annoying. Italy is less annoying in this tournament and I have always respected Andrea Pirlo. I have also upgraded Germany from my #1 hate list because I am really impressed by their “boring-ness” and “organization”. They do what they are supposed to do. But I still canNOT root for them, although if somehow Greece steal a goal tomorrow and eliminate them, I don’t think it’s going to be “fair”. Maybe I’ll just start rooting for the Czechs (against Portugal) and Croatia.
With all that said, this EURO means nothing to me now.
agreed @hedonistiX Go Croatia and Greece at this point altho i cannot endure another boring greece match…
Croatia can do well if they qualify and I wouldn’t even mind seeing england advance at this point..
ugh, so sad no words. obv we will get over this quicker than the WC but with the world ending in december maybe the new world will bleed Orange 🙂
hahah our Oranje world has ended several times, don’t tell me you’re a firm believer of the end of the world in December now too. At first years ago, I kinda thought it because of all the coincidences and numbering matching, but honestly, bro it’s all b/s looks like their making mad money off survival tips, shelters underground (that won’t be built and the whole Mayan calendar is completely off from other Calendars). But this is another discussion for another day on a diff thread. Besides, wasn’t there like there dates predicted before hand? Anyways, I agree with the following post in terms of selection, conditioning and even flights, what were they thinking?
From Radio NL – http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/holland-heroes-zeroes-euro-2012
Rated one of the favourites before the tournament got underway, Holland suffered an unprecedented series of three straight defeats at Euro 2012, and was knocked out of the first-round group-stage for the first time in three decades. So, how to explain why Holland performed so poorly and failed to live up to high expectation at the European Championship?
Here are five reasons:
1. Squad selection
Holland coach Bert van Marwijk made some highly conservative choices when deciding on his final Euro 2012 squad, opting for the relative experience of the likes of Wilfred Bouma (34), Stijn Schaars (26) and Mark van Bommel (35) instead of giving young stalwart or creative players on form like Vurnon Anita (23), Adam Maher (18), Nick Viergever (23) and Urby Emanuelson (26) a chance to build on a successful season.
That quartet could have provided an infusion of energy and could have changed the atmosphere within the team. True, Van Marwijk took a risk by fielding the youngest-ever player to grace the Euros, 18-year-old left-back Jetro Willems (who performed up to par), but the more experienced Emanuelson, Viergever or Anita would have been more reliable in that position and thus less of a concern to the centre-backs.
2. Fundamental formation flaws
Paradoxically, Holland’s double defence line proved to be their Achilles heel. Too often the forward defence duo (Nigel de Jong and captain Mark van Bommel) pulled back to assist the back four, leaving massive gaps in midfield, which playmaker Wesley Sneijder and forward Robin van Persie failed to fill. Sneijder, in particular, showed little sign of enthusiasm to carry out any defensive duties, preferring instead to throw his arms in the air in desperation if the ball wasn’t passed his way fast enough.
The problem could have been solved if Van Marwijk had opted for Vurnon Anita in the forward defence line. Following Holland’s first defeat against Denmark, football legend Johan Cruyff wondered why Holland needed two defence lines or even four defenders in the first place, given the unadventurous nature of the Danish game.
3. Base camp
Months before the Euro 2012 group draw, the Holland team manager – a type of coordinator not to be confused with coach – decided, in all his wisdom, to plump for Krakow in Poland as Holland’s tournament base. Krakow, the country’s elegant cultural capital and its most popular tourist destination, was not a host city for any of the 31 Euro 2012 matches.
In the end, Holland was fortunate to play all its three group-stage matches in Kharkiv, Ukraine, some 1250 kilometres away from their base camp. That meant three flights to the often blisteringly hot eastern Ukrainian city and three night-flights back to Krakow after each match – not particularly conducive to staying fit and healthy. “Holland don’t look at all fit,” Russia conditioning coach Raymond Verheijen remarked.
By the way, the other three Group B teams faced the same travel problem, but they complained less about the heat and humidity in Kharkiv than the Holland manager. “Offensive football requires more energy than defensive play,” Van Marwijk repeatedly stated at press conferences.
4. Opponents
All three other coaches in the “Group of Death” had studied Holland closely. Danish manager Morten Olsen had worked as Ajax coach for years. His Germany counterpart, Joachim Löw, had thoroughly scrutinised the Dutch ahead of last November’s friendly in Hamburg, which ended in a 3-0 win for Germany.
Löw knew he was on the right track by instructing his striker Mario Gomez to roam in between the four central defenders. There, in Holland’s vulnerable defensive heart, playmaker Bastian Schweinsteiger deftly manoeuvred Gomez into scoring position twice. The Bayern topscorer proved to be extremely clinical in his finishing. Statistics later showed that he only had ball contact for 22 seconds during the entire game. In much the same vein, Denmark banked on a rapier counter to clinch victory against the Dutch.
5. Mentality
Two years ago, at the World Cup in South Africa, the Dutch displayed almost surreal unity and identity of purpose. “Mission” became the buzzword, repeated time and again by all players as well as their managing staff as a sort of religious ritual.
Holland’s “mission” at the time: winning the World Cup. Not through a new superior brand of the “total football” they were famed for, but by using every means available to finally clinch the coveted title, which Holland came so close to winning in 1974 and 1988. Alas, in the end, Iker Casillas’ toe stood in the way in the final against Spain and Holland somehow never got over the shock. “It was hard to motivate players to gear up for the Euros,” Van Marwijk would later say.
Apart from the absence of a sense of direction or a sense of superiority, there was the usual feuding and infighting among the Dutch players at Euro 2012, though not as public as before. Bundesliga topscorer Klaas Jan Huntelaar, for instance, clearly wasn’t pleased to play second fiddle to Premier League super striker Robin van Persie, who refused to talk to the press during the entire tournament.
Gregory van der Wiel told reporters after the Portugal match that “there’s something wrong between me and the team”. And Wesley Sneijder complained about “leaks to the media by players” who “clearly put their own interests before those of the team”. Plenty of pedigree, but too many egos eroding team unity and with it, the chance of winning or even scoring goals. In Sneijder’s words: “We worked so hard for four years and squandered everything within the space of four weeks”.
Cannot complain about the base camp since everyone got the same traveling times.
Reasons should be: ARROGANCE, COCKINESS and SELFISHNESS which all point to one thing, DESTRUCTION.
you could see it coming from all these players before the euros. Someone like VDV was all arrogant and bullish, when he himself has never set the world on fire…remarkable. I do understand he is very marketable in holland, (with a wife that looks like that who wouldn’t be), but he is not better than german, spanish or even french stars. Hell, he’s not even a star! Van Bommel should have really focused on those sausage commercials instead of playing this one…
5. Mentality
Two years ago, at the World Cup in South Africa, the Dutch displayed almost surreal unity and identity of purpose. “Mission” became the buzzword, repeated time and again by all players as well as their managing staff as a sort of religious ritual.
Holland’s “mission” at the time: winning the World Cup. Not through a new superior brand of the “total football” they were famed for, but by using every means available to finally clinch the coveted title, which Holland came so close to winning in 1974 and 1988. Alas, in the end, Iker Casillas’ toe stood in the way in the final against Spain and Holland somehow never got over the shock. “It was hard to motivate players to gear up for the Euros,” Van Marwijk would later say.
that and the extra years sitting on the shoulders of our players.
it is a collective fault, no individual should be blamed. It is just silly to blame one or two for such failure. This will lead to bad decisions and more failures.
Some good points in that article! The Dutch did not look fit at all. Sneijder is talented but seems a prima donna and lazy–does not want to defend, can’t defend, and so will never be confused with, say, Edgar Davids, who was an absolute bulldog in the middle of the field. Good with the ball but useless without it.
Davids was the pitbull.
Please read this article, a great analysis of the present and future that will resonate with many of what has been said here. We have real talents for the future but it all depends on whose hands they fall to be managed. I hope it won’t be Bert but I think he will last 2 more years.
http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/06/18/moallim-the-netherlands-has-the-resources-to-rejuvenate-oranje-after-euro-2012-disaster/
very well written piece. But why does he say BVM won’t leave? Doens’t he have the decency to accept that he failed and let someone else? Or is he in DENIAL?
Personally I believe BVM will stay. He has been in denial all this time. Judging from his past actions he will find excuses, make promises for change and then we know what. KNVB will be OK with him for 2 more years.
If only Frank de Boer was available.
How can one possibly stay after such a disastrous campaign?! Its unheard of. He should leave before he mimics his twin brother…RAYMOND DOMENICH!
great read…. optimistic but there’s hope….. see my points below…
is it true that there was a Sneijder camp wanting to play the Ajax style and a VP camp that did not? If this is the case we are in big trouble. Clubs should not matter when it is time to play on the national team.
yes, this is what the AD is reporting, and fully explains the massive gaps in the midfield. Sneijder camp wanted to play attacking Ajax style and Van Persie camp wanted to play more conservative possession game. In the end, they played neither.
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1049/Oranje/article/detail/3272959/2012/06/18/LIVE-Kamp-Sneijder-wilde-Ajax-school-kamp-Van-Persie-saboteerde-Huntelaar.dhtml
Gee…I see many of us really in pain. I will not forget this tournament because it´s impossible but I´ll start looking for the future. In this group even Brazil or Spain could struggle and Oranje was below it´s real level. Defence sucks, but this time all players sucked big time!
We have said many things but the reality is that Oranje wasn´t well prepared for the Euro. Neither physically, mentally and team spirit was zero. I think this a lesson players will never forget and whoever comes to replace Van Marwijk will have to deal with it. A strong personality is needed!.
Mark my words, there is no way Van Marwijk will continue. There are ways to lose and say goodbye to a tournament, but like this it´s not fair to the fans. If he has some intelligence he has to resign in the next days / hours.
@Bitterballen (from a few posts back)
Yes, Portugal and France both currently have quality teams that can play with an attacking style, typically through a few obvious stars like Ronaldo and Ribery. But neither are anywhere near the team-wide brilliance of Holland’s 74 and 88 teams, nor Spain’s recent Euro and world champions in 08 and 10, or even Germany in the last few years.
I think that the comfort, trust and familiarity that comes by playing together day in and day out is necessary to achieve the fluidity and movement that we’ve come to expect from Dutch teams playing internationally.
In 74, six players from Ajax (Cruyff, Neekens, Rep, Haan, Suurbier and Krol), three from Feyenoord (Jansen, Van Hanegem and Rijsbergen) and one from Anderlecht (Rensenbrik) comprised the starting line-up (not including GK).
In 88, there were three from PSV (Koeman, van Aerle, Vanenburg), two from Ajax (Muhren and Wouters), two from AC Milan (Van Basten and Gullit) and one from Zaragoza (Rijkaard, during a brief spell between Ajax and Milan).
As has been well-documented, Spain essentially is Barcelona with Torres, Silva and Real Madrid filled in around the edges. Germany is Bayern with Ozil and Khedira.
I just wonder whether Holland can have such a team again.
We are certainly now at the low point for Dutch football internationally, and so it will be interesting to see what the KNVB’s response is. A complete make-over down to the grass-roots level as Germany undertook a few years ago? An attempt to return to the traditions established by Cruyff, Michels and Ajax in the early 70s? Something entirely new? Unfortunately for his personal legacy, Van Marwijk presided over the tarnishing of Holland’s positive reputation throughout the world, and I think it will be very hard for him to recover publicly from that.
Let’s not forget the Oranje that dazzled in 98 was composed of the great Ajax team of the mid-90s, apart from Cocu, Stam, and Numan.
So sad. Many of the team’s failings have been hammered here and elsewhere sufficiently already, and I won’t pile on. Just a couple of observations. One disturbing and telling thing for me was the lack of build-up from the back. Most of the game Steks just hoofed the ball upfield, Ireland-style. And I don’t blame him — the defenders were not up to the task of top-flight, ball-movement based football. Shocking contrast with, say, Spain which feels comfortable playing tiki-taka in its own third as much as the rest of the field.
Another was the total lack of quality play down the flanks. Almost no quality balls into the box from the flanks. No wonder Hunter was invisible.
Coming into this tournament I voiced my concern that all starters like to drift to the middle, crowding the middle and underutilizing the flanks. Which I observed, to my dismay. Robben and Afellay both over-dribbled, slowing the flow down. Through in weak overlapping play from the wing backs, and it was a mess. I don’t blame 18 y/o Jetro, though this game he did look like he’s spent to much time around Robben — he seemed to be trying to dribble through two guys on offensive versus getting to the corner for good, old-fashioed service. I also don’t blame Afellay — he’s just not match fit yet, not only physically but mentally. That leaves Robben and van de Wiel, who need to do some serious soul searching.
I don’t get the anti-van de Vaart sentiment. On offense, he did exactly what van Bommel and de Jong haven’t done from CDM — fill the space above the box to facilitate side-to-side distribution and generally support the front four. He scored one and hit the post. Sure, he’s not a true CDM, but for this game that really was Nigel’s role, not his.
Have to detox now for a bit. But I’ll be back to overthink the terminable run-up to WC2014…
coming into this tournament, my realistic goal for this team was reaching the semi-finals. We were in a tough group. I definitely believed we would get all 3pts against Denmark. I hoped we would get at least one more point from either the Germany or Portugal game and we would at the very least qualify 2nd in the group.
Since there was no Round of 16, we play the Quarterfinal game against a weaker opponent from Group A.
That was my expectation of this team. I knew we were going into this tournament with a very unstable defense. But I had faith that our offense would manage at least a couple of goals to reach the Semis.
well, life doesn’t always go according to plan. We lost all three games and we may have to regroup or start from scratch. So many questions we need to answer in the months to come.
@ Robin
I agree with your pro-Van der Vaart sentiment. I actually thought he performed fairly well in this final game. He is an attacking, creative player who attacked and created / was involved in Holland’s best goal-scoring chances.
He is not a good defender or a very fast or high-energy player, but he did exactly what we’ve come to expect from him, and he produced one goal and almost a second — as much as the rest of the offensive starters achieved collectively over a three game span.
I’m not sure he’s a player to build around for the future, but it’s a shame that Holland’s defensive liability was so great that VDV and Sneijder couldn’t have played together, with VDV closer to the striker and Sneijder dropping deeper.
It’s ironic that under Van Marwijk, Holland was forced to play so defensively not because they couldn’t attack, but because they couldn’t defend.
@JB
yes, playing with the same group of players as Germany and Spain do is an advantage. However, it’s not an excuse for us.
France won WC 1998 and EC 2000 with players from different clubs.
Look at Brazil over the years. Almost all their players move abroad at an early age. Almost all of them play for different clubs. They are the most successful team in international football.
I don’t think we need to make a complete change down to the grassroots level. Germany after 2002 and 2004 was faced with a lot of aging players that were past their prime. What they did going into the 2006 World Cup was to rejuvenate the team with key new faces.
They didnot dismantle the whole team and went with a totally youth team. Klose, Schweinstinger, Lahm, Ballack, Podolski etc were retained and with the exception of Ballack, they are all playing.
What they did more was to embrace a more attacking minded philosophy and ball sharing. Players constantly move on and off the ball to create space and passing lanes to receive the ball.
So far, it’s been working for them. They are hoping that this tournament will be their first successful campaign to lift a trophy for this generation of players. It’s a process that takes time. It didn’t happen for the national team overnight. They had their share of bad performances in 1994, 1998, 2000 and 2004.
@ balkan, that is a nice read… we have something to look forward to after this disaster… and to think my FB status update hours before the game was “Let the Mircale of Kharkiv begin…” Shame on me 🙁
Anyway, regarding the article…. I think we need to use the next friendly to give all the young new defenders a cap and begin working on the new system that will be implemented. If these youngsters are as good and promising as the author states than NOW is the time to test the waters.
The only starting players I highly believe are indispensable to our future team are Wes, N. De Jong, Stek, and Van Persie. Why V. Persie you may ask? Because he is our answer to David Villa and we did see some flashes of brilliance from him.
The rest of the spots are all up for grabs and @ SamDC is right in that the WC qualifiers are tough but winnable. We overcame Sweden and Hungary, two tough teams with relative ease… we need to rebuild now the way the Germans rebuilt after 2004 and the way France rebuilt after 2010… And we definitely have the resources to do so sooner rather than later…..
This is what someone posted on a thread from that article:
“There’s something to be said for the quick burn out. If They had converted a few of their chances based on the skill of RVP or Robben (very easily could have) and squeaked through to the quarters or semis the decline could have slowly and painfully continued through 2014 and beyond.”
Maybe this exit was a blessing in disguise…..
Spain 3, croatia 0.
I thought that Spain and Croatia had agreed to tie 2-2 🙂
France won WC 1998 and EC 2000 with players from different clubs.
Look at Brazil over the years. Almost all their players move abroad at an early age. Almost all of them play for different clubs. They are the most successful team in international football.
—
SamDC,
Could it be that it just works for Brazil/France and not for us? I’m not saying that if we pull 8 Ajax youngsters we’ll start kicking @$$ but more like “how will it hurt?” I believe we also were supported by core players that mostly played together in 74/78/88 (correct me if I’m wrong for 74/78) plus the golden generation of the 90s and it might not have been a coincidence that those were our most successful squads?
It also might have worked for Brazil/France because they don’t exactly have the most competitive leagues in the world? i.e.: their players have no choice but to go out? Ours would be as well when they turn to become “superstars” because Eredivisie teams can’t afford too many superstars but maybe – just maybe – what future Oranje needs is less superstars and more team players?
So many unanswered questions.
@SamDC:
I agree, and I’m not arguing that it’s an excuse for Holland or the only means of achieving success for other nations.
My point is just that Holland’s traditional playing style has developed over the years based on movement and use of space.
When I watch Spain or Germany play, their players are moving, attacking and creating space and trusting their teammates to take advantage — and I believe that they are able to play so in sync with each other in part based on their familiarity developed at the club level.
When I watched Holland in this tournament, other than for a few brief moments, there was very little movement, as if the players were not willing to make an attacking run because they didn’t trust their teammate to use them / take advantage of the opportunity. So everyone kept standing around waiting for the player on the ball to dictate, rather than creating new options for him.
And so I just wonder whether having all the top players continue to play abroad in different systems with different managers will cause the Dutch players’ total football roots to desert them, at least when they are reassembled to play at the international level.
Great article that one:
The virtues of teamwork, selflessness and camaraderie need to be reinstated. It’s evolution not revolution, the first steps into a brave new world, and a reference point is close to home at Ajax. The ideologue of modern Dutch football was forged at the Amsterdam club. They can be of national service again.
Frank de Boer’s transformation of the club in the last 18 months has shown there’s life left in the model Van Marwijk abandoned. De Boer’s approach is the same his predecessors: possession-based circulation football in a fluid and flexible system. This is what Oranje needs to return to.
Good:
http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/06/18/moallim-the-netherlands-has-the-resources-to-rejuvenate-oranje-after-euro-2012-disaster/
The virtues of teamwork, selflessness and camaraderie need to be reinstated. It’s evolution not revolution, the first steps into a brave new world, and a reference point is close to home at Ajax. The ideologue of modern Dutch football was forged at the Amsterdam club. They can be of national service again.
Frank de Boer’s transformation of the club in the last 18 months has shown there’s life left in the model Van Marwijk abandoned. De Boer’s approach is the same his predecessors: possession-based circulation football in a fluid and flexible system. This is what Oranje needs to return to.
Adjusting the midfield is paramount. The most important component is the deep-lying player in a balanced triumvirate, whose job is to retain and recycle possession. Vurnon Anita is entrusted by De Boer at Ajax. His continual excellence in the role, the fulcrum, has only elevated his importance, and there’s no reason why he can’t replicate it for his country. In front is the controlling midfielder (Theo Janssen) and incisive playmaker (Christian Eriksen), players similar to Dutch nationals Kevin Strootman (PSV) or Jordy Clasie (Feyenoord) and Adam Maher (AZ). Integrating these three, particularly Clasie and Maher, is imperative.
Both are the biggest talents in the Netherlands. The way Clasie effortlessly dictates and switches Feyenoord’s play, providing precise short passes coupled with long and direct balls, earned him the nickname “Xavi of De Kuip”. As for Maher he’s drawn similarities with Andrés Iniesta; he’s intuitive, vertical, fast, adventurous and intelligent. He effortlessly glides between the lines, is spatially aware and creative, and maintains eye-of-the-needle passing and dribbling. A burden for some not him, nurtured correctly he can be a huge asset in the long-term. The same goes for Clasie. In days gone by similar players were regularly produced. That’s not so much the case now, so when the players come around, Oranje need to capitalise.
This can somewhat heal my pain:
This is all hypothetical, but those who doubt Oranje can ever be ‘Oranje’ again are mistaken. I’m sure many Dutch fans look with envious eyes across the border at Germany, but they shouldn’t be disheartened. The resources are there to rise again. As one chapter ends, another begins. If the seeds are sown now, come 2014, maybe Oranje can reap the fruits.
After such humiliation – I say we need a fresh start and that happens by changing the coach as we need new ideas and changing a big chunk on the players. I would think the new “core” would consist of the following players:
1. Steks
2. Willems
3. VDweil
4. De Jong
5. Strootman
6. Narsingh
7. Afellay
8. Sneijder
Any new about witch central back will sing Ajax to replace Vergthonghen?
I hope they sing Gouweleeuw or Nuytinck to make partnership with Ricardo van Rhijn. It will be nice for Orange!
Ok boys, im done bashing people.
I know nobody else will enjoy watching the rest of the tournament, but i still love it, just love the game and the competition, seeing what players have…
BTW, croatia is playing pretty well against spain
wow..italy need to win against ireland and ireland are doing well…italy may also go out without winning a game!
don’t know why strootman or narsingh were’t used more in this tourney…
watching the spain croatia game i still don’t get why we did not hold firm after our 1-0 lead… spain plays boring football for lengthy periods and then create exciting buildup plays… even if the pass back or side-to-side they hold onto the ball and it does not seem like a tough thing to do…
Croatia really need to attack more…spain isnt really a counterattacking team so just throw bodies forward…
Each time Spain has the ball I want to blow my brain. So frigging boring.
spain are definitely being held well by croatia, but spain doesnt seem very urgent going forward.
notice pique and his great runs forward…imagine mathijsen charging forward…HA
@Hedonistix
I don’t think we need to have less superstars. We all wish that our players are superstars at every position. Do we rather have Mathijsen or a superstar at his position. Do you think we would have played this bad if we had great CBs?
Just having superstars is not the answer. We need some superstars. We need those players who can take a team on their back when things are going bad. However, we need them to function as a team. We need them to put their egos aside and work for the good of the team.
We just need solid players. Players that can do the job. If properly handled, superstars will deliver. Look at Brazil in 2002. Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Roberto Carlos, Cafu…all of them are household names throughout the world. They were able to function as a team and deliver after their failure in 1998.
@SamDC,
Let’s rephrase that “superstars” reference to “primadonnas”. We can use several/lots of superstars who can conduct themselves as real superstars and not acting like spoilt primadonnas.
In reality, this is very hard, because even in normal people’s workplace, you don’t usually see 4 type A guys/gals having lunch and be friendly with each other. It is human nature but the situation can be controlled by a strong and respectable authority, i.e.: the Brazillian squad you quoted.
But then again, we can only speculate here. There must be riff-raffs internally because we’re losing. As I’ve written multiple times, if we had won big against Denmark, the situation would/could have been 180 degree different with lots of lovefest in the Oranje camp.
Turkey September 7 at home / Hungary September 11 on the road.
Both very winnable but definately not easy games!
Keeper we are fairly solid with Stek, Krul and Vorm.
Right Back is a disaster. VDW was lost! Should we have NDJ play here? Or Anita? Is van Rhijn ready? Do we need to stary Boula here for now?
Centre Back could be better. Two of Douglas, Heitinga and Vlaar can be servicable (no better). Perhaps Pieters is a better option here than all of them? Is Bruma even close? How about Nuytink?
Left Back needs to improve, alot. Should Urby be given this spot for now? He is a bit like Gio. This lets Pieters move inside. Willems really wont be ready until the next Euro when he will be all of 22.
Defensive Centre Midfield we have alot of options. If NDJ drops back to the back four perhaps Strootman and Afellay would make an interesting pair.
Attacking Centre Midfield we are solid. You can’t do better than Wes backed up by Raf (if Raf won’t accept this, don’t call him up).
Wingers we have many options. Robben and RVP are my choices. Elia, Narisingh, John, Wijnaldum, Drenthe and others need to develop.
Centre Forwards aplenty, Hunter, LDJ, Dos, Wolf. All need service but all can score.
Until BVM is gone I guess we need to assume 4-2-3-1 so here goes:
1 – Stek
2 – NDJ
3 – Douglas
4 – Pieters
5 – Urby
6 – Strootman
7 – RVP
8 – Afellay
9 – Hunter
10 – Sneijder
11 – Robben
12 – Krul
13 – Vorm
14 – Heitinga
15 – Vlaar
16 – Willems
17 – Boula
18 – Vaart
19 – Drenthe
20 – Narsingh
21 – Elia
22 – Dos
23 – Wolfswinkle
This assumes someone can get Elia and Drenth pointed in the right direction with the correct clubs. John, Babel and Wijnaldum I guess are the other options for those spots.
What would be your midfield ? Afellay next to Strootman ? or Sneijder ? In any case, it would be too weak defensivly.
Strootman and Afellay in the pivot spots ahead of the back four. In the style of Schwiensteiger and Khederia, ball moving box to box defensive MF’s.
@Oranjerules,
please no Babel in the team. Most useless player of current Dutch generation. I’m sorry. Nothing personal but I just don’t like his game at all. Nothing but senseless runs with no end product. Never learns or improves his game.
Babel?
HAHAHA…what a joke this guy is!
I remember he once took a terrible shot against Liverpool that went out for a THROW IN…this was not on the volley, this was a shot at the top of the box from the left side…what a joke.
Drenthe and Elia are well on their way to being thr next Babel if they dont get their shit together. So much talent, so much promise so very useless to this point.
I was just throwing it out there.
Drenthe already is the next Babel…what a clown. 7 billion people who do anything to be in his position, he did great at Everton for a while and then comes late to practice and gets booted…WTF DUDE
* For Liverpool
I have a question for you guys. Those of you who are experts in Eredevise football or at least follow it regularly.
How good is Douglas? I have seen very few games of him for Twente so I can’t really say much about him.
Please rate him on a scale of 1-10
Reliability
Tackling
Workrate
short passing
long passing
man-marking
heading to score (corners/set pieces)
speed
agility/movement
discipline/temperament
leadership
camaraderie with others
whatever else you can rate him on
Finally, overall, who would you compare him the most to? Whose playing style, physique etc is he most similar too. I mean anybody on any team, club or national.
I have seen him a few times and he was ok, nothing great, but i only saw 2 or 3 games.
I do remember the first time i saw Pieters, holycrap was i blown away.
PSV was playing Utrecht and every play stopped with him, just couldnt get past him, what a raw talent…i think if he was at the euros the defense would not have looked as bad.
He also is great attacked, hes fast and puts in GREAT crosses…
Spain Croatia game is a real snooze fest, as is italy-ireland.
awww…what a shame…Chiellini injured…poor guy.
The irish fans are belting it out again, freakin awesome.
come on croatia!
omg!
almost 1 for croats!
wow…i thought that was a sure goal! game finally picking up
So does anyone here notice if Croatia is somehow able to do a Greece, i.e.: steal a goal vs Spain and Italy holds on to their lead, Spain will be eliminated? I’m not one to wish bad for others but I think I’d rather enjoy this scenario since I’ll stop get the abuses for the Oranje early exit.
Drenthe had a decent season with Everton. He played as a midfielder. Scored 3 goals. I don’t really know what his natural position is. He was playing as a left back at Real Madrid but couldn’t perform regularly or consistently.
He is experienced and played in the CL, La Liga and the PL. I think if he continues to play well and find a position he’s good at, he should get a chance.
I don’t know what happened to Elia at Juve. He was doing fine Hamburg. He has the talent. He’s definitely a better passer than Babel. He just needs to forget that chapter of his career and move to the PL. Get to a team where he’ll be a starter.
Elia is too too weak tactically, it’s pity cause technically it’s a very interesting player.
Why does EsPN keep saying that Italy wins the group and Spain are runners up with current scores? Italy needs another goal at least to finish as runners up if Spain draws? Am I missing sth?!
because they scored more goals with the TEAMS IN QUESTION…total goal diff goes out of the window if three teams are found on equal points
I don’t know what happened to Elia at Juve. He was doing fine Hamburg. He has the talent. He’s definitely a better passer than Babel. He just needs to forget that chapter of his career and move to the PL. Get to a team where he’ll be a starter.
—-
Yupe, I also was asking about Elia when the tourney started why he got left out. Supposedly out of form in Juve? He was one of our best (young) players the last time, definitely much better than Babel.
I heard there is a chance he’ll join Liverpool, that would be nice, more Oranje in the Reds.
I’ve just seen a video compilation of Clasie, I’ve noticed and knew he was a good player when I watched Feyenoord games, but seriously, after having watched the video, I think maybe he is the BEST dutch promise for the future.
The energy and the power of N.De Jong and a better pass quality than Van Bommel.And he is quicker than both.
Him next to Strootman or Schaars just front of the defense, Van der Vaart higher, it would be a really interesting midfield.
Let’s take a look to Anita, Leroy Fer and De Guzman too (who is probably moving back to the Eredivisie, maybe to join Twente), they’re also interesting players for this sector.
Croatia are great. Defending well and also creating chances. I keep on comparing their defense with ours. They don’t have bigger names than Heitinga or Mathijsen but they are doing their job and all the team covers when Spain have possession. Sometimes it is simpler than we think !
4 years ago – they burst on the international stage with superb energy beating world champions 3-0, and world runner-ups 4-1 collecting 9 points.
Most of them earned contracts by top clubs and played top level football…
2 years later – they showed maturity and played with a pragmatic style not played before by prior generations and earned the right to be vice-champions of the world
This year – they did not change a thing, in fact they kept all the same players and played poorly – got eliminated from the tournament shamefully.
This is the end of an era and new generation must take over. I would keep some (MAX 4) of the more experienced players on condition that they keep the harmony and accept a lesser role.
@ SamNY : i think 4 players are not enough my friend .
We have to remember that our problem in 2006 was lack of experience ” only 4 experienced players : Sar , Ruud , Cocu and bommel ” .
I can’t hold on to the past this much — players that won’t respect my cheering don’t deserve to play. I don’t want this team to not qualify to the world cup – we all remember what happened in 2002? All the talent, all the ego and we didn’t even qualify for the WC.
Now spain just basically passed their way into the goal.
Poor Croatia…offsides goal…
actually it was not… if only oranje could have scored a goal like this 🙁
my bad, they only showed the replay once…if we had created that chance, RVP would have hit the bar, and Robben would have shot the rebound to Moscow…
Any bets on where we will be ranked come August?
I say 20th…maybe 25th…
@ paul yup 100% offside indeed
Croatia eliminated with full honors. They deserve a great applause. Rarely I’ve seen Spain in such difficulty.
@ Bitterballen:
I thought so…interesting how we still have only seen one replay of the goal…
Shit, now that the games are over i need to continue the job search. lame.
Thank god im between jobs during the Euros, or else id go crazy!
Funny, in economy, they use the acronym PIGS to refer to some of the, hum, weak, bankrupt countries of southern Europe (no racism intended, please). I just realised ALL of these countries are in the next round. Guess that will raise the morale at home for a while…
WHAT THE HELL, HOW IS THAT NOT OFFSIDE>?>>>>
EVERY REPLAY SHOWS OFFSIDES, WHAT DO THE COMMENATORS SEE????
they are blinded by espana love, the media jumps on spain like the greatest thing ever. They love spain no matter all the diving and everything
I think he is “positionnally” offside on the first pass (no idea how to say it in English, sorry). Then the rule says not to blow the whistle unless he is “distracting the goalie”. Leaves ample room for the referee to mess things up…
well the number 22, navas was supposed to stay still when offside, instead he was running and then the pass he received was a forward pass, it’s supposed to be a pass equal to, or behind
That Spain goal looked pretty much offside — no wonder they decided not to show any replays…
Also, I think Eduardo (formerly of Arsenal) was probably the least effective sub I’ve seen in the entire tournament. Came on for Croatia in the 80th minute and did literally nothing
Finally, I never noticed it before, but is Xavi trying to grow Wolverine hair?
Croatia was denied an absolutely clear penalty. Sergio Ramos’ tackle was a blatant penalty. I don’t know how the official next to the goal missed that.
so what’s the consensus here about Robben? I have a read a lot of negative assessments of his performance. I myself have to agree that he was way below his standards and what we expect of him.
Is there a future for Robben in 2014?
No.
yes, if he gets back into form and plays great. why not? he’s still one of the best talents in the world.
all he needs to do is rest, see a sports psychologist, and play great for bayern and who knows where he will be.
I don’t get how anyone can say Robben does not have a future; very harsh on him and he just needs to build his confidence back up, albeit Torres. I remember when Chelsea signed him, even when we first got linked (after his amazing run and dismal WC performance) I said nah, don’t believe it. He’s still not fully come good yet, but Robben needs more time, Sneijder didn’t have the best of years and I’m scratching my head about RVP, who scores the most goals and is pulling an older Messi on us [great for club, opposite of country]. There will be some minor changes and a lot of talking to, without a doubt; however, Robben, Sneijder, VDV (depending on attitude and where he’s positioned), De Jong and solid defenders we will all come together again and this is just a bad taste we need to wipe away and write off and start fresh. No point of negativity now, we’re not fighting for anything anymore and if it’s going to be constant bickering and media bashing we might as well become like England.
Was van persie abused in Amsterdam airport?
yes some people called him a son of a bitch and called names to the players
Oranje’s midfield is what we need to change. That is where you control possession. If Sneijder get’s back to form and we play with a #10 then we should play 4-3-1-2. But this will also depend on VdWiel if he can improve or if we find a better RB to stalk up and down the flank. Most of our experienced players will be 30+ when the World Cup comes around and if they aren’t on form we can switch to a 4-3-3 with our younger players.
A few combinations:
(Maher – Fer – Strootman) – (Clasie – Strootman – Maher)
(Clasie – Fer – Strootman). Strootman is definitely going to be a key figure in the midfield.
If we tried a 4-3-1-2 this could be a good way…
Clasie – Fer – Strootman
——–Sneijder——–
v.Persie – Huntelaar
Janmaat just moved to Feyenoord so I’m interested to see what kind of season he has. VdW just doesn’t look World Class. But it’s hard to say since nobody (aside from Willems) looked good. A new Center Back pairing is definitely needed.
lets not crucify van der wiel just yet. if it’s true about him at chelsea or benfica, then lets see how he does, especially if van der wiel and Ola John play on the same side and terrorize teams, then we can truly be in luck to have that whole side figured out.
Yeah, definitely. He’s still one of my favorite players. I don’t blame him for anything as the whole team was off this tournament.
Your favorite player couldn’t keep standing on his feet trying to defend Ronaldo’s second goal. He stumbled to the ground a few meters away from the ball like a little girl. He’s more concerned with looking like a tough guy with all these tattoos and posing for photos, while in reality he is made of glass. He has been nothing and will remain nothing as far as football is concerned. You may call Ronaldo whatever you want (I personally dislike him as a human being). But when the moment of truth came knocking, he showed who’s a man and who’s not and carried his team to victory. Only De Jong and Stek were the real men against Portugal.
Well said. I dont disagree but don’t twist my words. “ONE of my favorite players” is what I said.
I despise Ronaldo but there’s doubting he’s the 2nd best in the world and he came through for his nation when it mattered. Can’t say the same about Robben who has the same duties as Ronaldo.
there’s NO doubting*
Man I wish Boula (the cannibal) was defending in Ronaldo in place of Van der Weil. Boula the first half and Kuyt the second half if Boula gets tired. At least these 2 players- despite being limited technically- play like there is no tomorrow. This is what we lacked throughout this tournament. An Edgar Davids type of pitbull- full of passion and determination. None of our prima donnas stepped up, except Sneijder in certain bursts and De Jong throughout. They seemed all scared- which some of you have been calling it fatigued.
We had the exact same side as the WC 2010. The only difference was desire. You could see the entire side had it then. Oranje beat Brazil, Uruguay and pushed Spain to end because they had the passion and desire. Aside from the few you mentioned they all lacked the fire this time around.
In the future as far as keeping experienced players I’d take Boulah over Heitinga any day.
@ OranjeBoom. I agree. Heitinga makes too many mistakes and NEVER learns from them. He is the typical boy who tries to look like a tough man- with his tattoos and shaved head. On the other hand, Boula is truly a tough man without all the “accessories” to show that. He is intimidates the other players. A bit like Stam. He is faster than Heitinga and Matheijsen. He will be 32 by next WC, which isn’t too bad.
Robben in Brazil? No, not unless he changes his mentality and style of play.
RVP abused in the amsterdam airport? Poor guy… 😉
I hope Ajax in are in Arsenals group in the CL. Van Persie will tear them apart.
Hahaha. Really? Who gives a damn if he does so. He is a loser and will always be one.
@ ORangeboom:
Again, you miss the two key pieces to the WC team…Gio and Kuyt…we underestimated their value big time.
And of course they hate RVP in amsterdam…hes feyenoord and he sucks ass for NT..
Gio & Kuyt!
Yeah they were the bridge between defense and attack. Tireless on the left side
Amen! Kuyt earned his Heineken every time he stepped on the pitch.
Gio was a hero.
Leadership like that doesn’t grow on trees.
I’ll re post this and hopefully won’t come up as a duplicate, but come on getting rid of Robben, Sneijder, De Jong, Van Persie we’re riding our emotions too high and trust me I know when I do the same thing, but
I don’t get how anyone can say Robben does not have a future; very harsh on him and he just needs to build his confidence back up, albeit Torres. I remember when Chelsea signed him, even when we first got linked (after his amazing run and dismal WC performance) I said nah, don’t believe it. He’s still not fully come good yet, but Robben needs more time, Sneijder didn’t have the best of years and I’m scratching my head about RVP, who scores the most goals and is pulling an older Messi on us [great for club, opposite of country]. There will be some minor changes and a lot of talking to, without a doubt; however, Robben, Sneijder, VDV (depending on attitude and where he’s positioned), De Jong and solid defenders we will all come together again and this is just a bad taste we need to wipe away and write off and start fresh. No point of negativity now, we’re not fighting for anything anymore and if it’s going to be constant bickering and media bashing we might as well become like England.
I agree we do miss players like Gio and Boula, but man we got some others that are potentially as decent, just need to get better squad selection. Fitness, training and whether Bert’s there or not, other than a few in the back, I really wouldn’t get rid off all the great players, not now at least. I know how the universe works, we’re having this conversation now and in another we’re declaring our love for all these players and that they’re at the pinnacle of their career. Sadly, that’s not the case today, but tomorrow for us it might be and I just hope they can own up to their mistakes and right the wrongs.
in other news, roger clemens found not guilty…ha…another shocking result this week…
hahah I know right just read that, well for the other ppl living in America paying taxes, it’s a good thing we can throw away 2-3 million over 8 weeks; not to mention on how many years this trial has been going on for.
I said it when Barry Bonds was acquitted, that this would happen. Not surprised one bit and shoulda put a bet on it, of course there’s nothing else to worry about in the States or current affairs which America is involved in whether someone has been using steroids (sarcasm obviously).
I realize that many of you will disagree with this post, but I hold the players accountable more than BVM.
1. I think he knew all along that our back 4 are more inferior than we thought. This is why he played his cautious 4231 formation. Some may argue why not play VDV instead of MVB or NDJ. May I remind you of when he did that in the WC final against Spain. It was a defensive failure by VDV who failed to clear the ball that was going towards Iniesta.
2. I would even argue that BVM knew all along that our entire team is inferior to other teams. It received way too much hype than it deserves. I’ve watched all the EC games so far and oranje is among the worst teams- if not the worst. It is NOT BVM’s fault if his approach that worked in the WC didn’t work in the EC. His approach was to be pragmatic and patient. This is how he did it in the WC and this is how he was planning to do it in the EC. It is NOT his fault that none of our attacking 4 helped on defense. It is NOT his fault that Robben kept shooting to the stands and doing his predictable moves. It is NOT his fault that RVP missed all his chances and proved once again that he is useless with the national team. It is NOT his fault that Snejider is not his old self.
3. Probably you’ll argue: then why not play others. Simply because these were the best choices available. Many of you kept screaming for Hunter as if he was the Messiah. BVM knew that he is a player with limited abilities- especially when it comes to big games. Can someone name 1 big performance he’s had against a big team (Internationale or club)? I don’t give a damn if he scored 48 goals this year. He is NO Kluivert, RVN, or Bergkamp, all of which can perform in a big game, and have proven so many times. Hunter is a great player against San Marino but is limited otherwise. He cannot create a goal and is too static. I’d argue that Gomez is way better. Look at Gomez’ goal against us how he move to the right spot in anticipation of the ball. Many of you kept screaming for Afelaay to play instead of Kuyt. We all saw how wasteful he was. His best achievement is: a bench-warmer at Barca. Some of you are even saying BVM should have picked more youth unknown players from the Eredevisie. Really? Do you think any of these players who play in a dismal league would have done better? I bet if he would have done so on the expense of the stars and didn’t perform (most likely), then BVM would have still be crucified.
4. I strongly think that BVM worked with the talent at hand and instructed the team to be at its best. Oranje achieved what it achieved in the WC because of his tactics coupled with a bit of luck here and there. Oranje, in my opinion, over-achieved in the WC, thanks to BVM. The fact that they couldn’t do it again this time is due to aging of some key players, the luck being not on our side, and the players failing to show up. These are NOT the coach’s mistakes. He has to pick from the best talent available. And if the best talent available turns to be shit, it is not his fault.
5. This team is by no means the dominant Oranje of 1998-2000. This bunch of jokers are no Davids, Bergkamp, Overmars, Stam, Van der Sar, De Boers, Zenden, Neuman, Winter, Gio, Jonk, etc. They are a group of talented players that do has less talent than the previous generations, yet bigger egos (which BVM kept in-check) than the previous generations.
6. BVM has achieved more than any Oranje national coach has ever achieved, given the players at his disposal. Please show some respect to our old man.
I personally don´t want to hand out the negative verdict on Van Persie just yet. Van Marwijk´s offense strategy consist of a lone striker with two wingers, but I have rarely seen these two wingers provide the necessary pass/cross for their lone striker. During this tournament, I have seen Robben/Afellay cutting in several times and making the shot themselves. Leaving Van Persie standing like a statute, the goals that VP missed were direct passes either from Sneijder or Van Bommel (yes he should have made them, I understand that) but tactic wise I think Van Marwijk failed to address this matter, whether he wanted the two wingers to cross or go for goal. At Arsenal, Van Persie is given the red carpet treatment, as Walcott and Gervinho always dribbles, crosses or passes for the Van Persie tap in. Maybe VM wanted VP to play that false number 9 role like Cesc Fabegras, but this is also not true because he hardy ever connects with Robben nor Affelay. I remember during WC’10, Kluivert scored the equalizer against Brazil from a beautiful pass from R. De Boer on the right (overmars old school winger on the left), during those days the wingers were true wingers in the services of the striker. Now it all seems blurred.
The more I see Robben, the more I am convinced that he wants the Messi “free to do anything” role. So don’t bother me if I want to score, pass or dribble opponents. Look don’t get me wrong, it maybe good when he actually scores but its quite confusing at times especially for the guy waiting in the middle. I remember a couple of times when Robben had the ball, Van der Wiel was just standing still and not running through the flanks to find an opening. I don’t know, Van Persie – Robben has not convinced me because they are not on the same wavelength. Maybe like “sleeping with the enemy” type of thing. Van Persie was a flop during the first two games at WC’10, but he had Kuyt on the right and Van d Vaart (who didn’t want to be there) on the left. Give him a chance, with true hardcore (classic) wingers…
*WC’98
@ Gio. I always like your posts and agree with a lot of what you have to say. However, how many big tournaments should we give Van Persie? This is the 3rd in a row that he fails to show up. Don’t get me wrong. He was better than many of other players this time around: Robben, Afelaay, and even Sneijder at times. At least he is more dynamic and plays with his head. The biggest disappointments of this tournament were: Robben, Afelaay, MVB, VDW, Heitina, Vlaar, Willems (did the best he could given his age).
Also, add Sneijder to the above list of disappointments, even though we all saw it coming after a dismal season at Inter. He showed some flashes here and there but not enough for a our #10. The teams needs someone to rely on in the midfield. Someone who is fast, dynamic, fighting, authoritative (Jonk/Davids) and Sneijder is possesses none of these qualities. He only gives killer passes every once in a while.
@ overmars, think about sneijder for a second. would you really consider him a disappointment? this guy is not a defender, he is the engine of our team… a true #10. he is the reason behind all our success, def not the root cause of our failure…. actually, he did a great job defending IMO…
True, may players were to blame for our failure but not Sneijder… if our defense was not as awful as it was he would have given us every chance of winning this tournament. He is a better MF than anyone at this tournament, even Ozil. Put him on the France team, the English team, the Italian team, and even the Spanish team and you would see his true ability.
It’s a shame he didn’t get to showcase his talent but you can’t pin our failure on him.
Xavi is 32 and looks terrific, ‘ageless’ if you will. That bodes well for Sneijder and the next WC and Euros.
@ Bitterballen. I did NOT say Sneijder is not a great player. In fact, he is my favorite of this generation. However, he is NOT his old self. Maybe the fame/injury got to him! He seems slower and not as creative as before. In the midfield we need someone like Davids. We currently have NONE. De Jong was the most dynamic throughout this EC. But, he has limited technical abilities, especially in the opponent’s half. At least Davids can shoot, score goals, tackle, and give assists. De Jong can only tackle, and the current Sneijder can only give an assist every once in a while. This is NOT enough to win a championship. Maybe the luxury life in Milan ruined him. I really don’t know 🙁
Xavi looks good because he plays with great players in a cohesive midfield with great chemistry. And he’s probably a lot fitter than Sneijder. Sneijder is very talented with the ball–but like Van der Vaart and several others on this team, he is not very athletic or fast, and I think that is a team weakness. The Dutch have excellent individual technical skills–are very dangerous in the attacking third–but don’t have the athleticism or work rate or chemistry to press enough and get the ball. Both the back four AND midfield need to be much better.
Sneijder is wasted on left wing.
I agree with you on RvP but I have never seen Huntelaar miss like RvP misses – EVER! KJH would have put away at least 1 of the chances that RvP was given in the Denmark game and it would all be very different now.
The game against the Danes is what killed us. Against Germany we needed a result badly and it was defensive errors that killed it (along with RvP misses) and against Portugal it was a last roll of the dice.
I dont lay all of the blame at Berts feet. Sure his tactics need sharpening but the team created chances and defended poorly – those were not BVM errors – but just player errors.
Hunter is still the best sole striker option until Ricky matures….
@ Ed. Everyone keeps saying that loss against the Danes killed us. I have 2 points:
1. What kind of a team is this that cannot come back after being down to an “inferior” team? Portugal came back to win the game after the Danes came back from 2-0 to tie the game. Oranje had 60 minutes to salvage that game but they didn’t. I doubt Hunter would have made a difference in that game. He wasted the BEST chance in the game.
2. Even after losing the first game, what kind of a team is it that cannot win 2 games in a “win or go home” scenario. We made Germany and Portugal look better than they really are. Wait and see how these teams will perform when they play a better team.
Bottom line, a true winner who can win regardless of what happens in a game. If they’re down, they manage to tie and then take the lead. If they lose one game, they manage to turn around and win the next.
If these over-hyped prima donnas can’t do that, then they have no place in this Euro. They need to watch the games from the previous Oranje generations who when lost, lost with dignity (due to luck, penalty kicks, etc). Heck, they need to watch how Greece and Czech played in this EC!
Agree with you Overmars about many points, I always say this generation is full of losers and overrated players.
1- Huntelaar, as you said, against big team I only remember his goal against Inter when he was playing with Ajax, in 2006, and his goal against England few months ago (if England is a big team nowadays…). Otherwise, nothing. With Milan, they trusted him for two games against Manchester in CL, he didn’t score. With Real he didn’t score when he played against Valencia, Barcelona…VM knew that he was going to be useless, he just put him against Portugal because all the world wanted it.
2- Robben. Seriously, Robben. You can’t find a bigger loser, Chelsea 2007, CL semi finals against Liverpool, he is substitute, he come in, he misses his penalty…2010 he lost two finals, 2012 he missed a crucial penalty against Dortmund and against Chelsea. It’s the last player I would trust to do something good in a final or important game.
3- Van Persie. Overrated, what has he done important in his career ? He won an european cup with Feyenoord but he wasn’t even titular there after because of his behaviour and lack of vision, he went to Arsenal, he won the cup, he scored brillant goals, but every crucial game of CL Arsenal lost, he had a part of reponsability. Last year against Barcelona he took a stupid red card, he could also take it two times during the final against Spain…This year he was invisible against Milan and so on.
Our players aren’t spanish or german actual players, and they are far from the level of the last generation. Team of 98/2000 deserved X100 more to reach a world cup final.
That’s why we have to change, I can’t get how people still want to see them, they lost 2004 (Robben, VDV, Heitinga), 2006,2008,2010,2012 and you still want it.
Hunter was given very few chances at Milan or Madrid. Many games he was just a sub – like for Oranje.
He is not a miracle worker – when the game is lost at 2-0, you dont bring on one of the most deadly strikers in all of Europe with only 19 minutes left to play against a miserly German defence.
RvP’s goal was the result of an unsighted German GK as the shot passed through the defenders legs – besides if RvP had put away his earlier efforts we would be top of the world right about now.
Dont label KJH a failure with the same brush as you paint RvP. Different story there – RvP gets the nod to start – has a whole game to prove his worth and nothing. Hunter gets 19mins.
Dont get me started on vs Portugal though – Hunter (and RvP) had no service for the whole game. This time it wasnt their fault. It was VDW losing CR and VDV not able to track back to help out the defence.
Oh how we missed Dirk Kuyt and his million miles of running between offence and defence – inspirational stuff!
Huntelaar never scores against big teams. He lacks the intelligence and the technique thats why he barely gets any chances.
Van Persie gets many chances because his movement is intelligent, his first touch is usually perfect. Plus he helps the system.
It didn’t workout for both strikers but Holland failed as a team. For me the defense/GK were the biggest problem. Even if Holland by some miracle progressed, they would have been cut apart by Spain or Germany again.
You can’t build a winning team without a solid foundation
BTW Belgium will surpass Holland by 2014. I have no doubt about that.
All they really need is a top striker and a full back and they’re good to go.
Holland need to produce atleast two World class defenders and mabe a world class winger to replace Robben by 2014 or they have no chance
“VDV not able to track back to help out the defence.”
I’ve only watched the match once, but I clearly remember vdv defending left back in the box, with Jetro nowhere to be seen.
Jetro pushed up so far… even dribbling into the box! without effect…
vdv was covering ground. haven’t seen the distance stats, but i think vdv did yeoman’s work.
You guys are pretty harsh on Robben. I absolutely agree that his performance was just horrible. We expected so much from him yet he failed.
IMHO, Robben had a tumultuous and hectic month of May. He had a fight with Ribery. He missed a penalty that lost the Bundesliga title. He then compounded the situation by missing that penalty in extra time against Chelsea. He got booed by his own fans in his own stadium.
I think this tournament just came to soon for him. He never mentally recovered. He lost all his focus and was disconnected from the team. He couldn’t beat defenders like he used to do. He couldn’t take shots on goal. He couldn’t make crosses.
I strongly believe he needs to leave Bayern Munich. Oranje’s disappointing exit and his own failure would just be too much for him. He needs to go to a PL team and start a new chapter. Although I’m not a Liverpool fan, I think that would be a good destination for him. He would fit right in and they have great fans. They have a new coach and they will be looking to put a bad season behind them. If Nani is leaving, Man Utd would also be a great place for him as he can play both on the left or the right.
Bottomline, if Robben handles his situation the right way, he can recover and be back. I wouldn’t rule him out yet.
Completely agree! I dunno why I would love to see him return to Chelsea, but he needs to get tha eff outta dodge and start a fresh to clear his mind and there is without a doubt he will push again. Who knows how much time we’ll see of our major stars during our Belgium friendly (s**+) better be all of them eagerly wanting to make up for this. I think they need a fresh clean slate, Steeks needs a talk to and rebuilt our defense and yes we expected a lot from everyone, but didn’t fully take into consideration what was going on around them.
I know it’s hard to believe we scored the most during qualifying to get to the EC only losing our last game and still finished top, but I mean for those 3 games a lot wasn’t working defensively and surely you can’t put the weight on attackers to run back and forth when our defenders didn’t overlap or push/pressure enough.
@SamDC what has he done to prove otherwise?? Mario Gomez justified his critics by scoring 3 goals, Ronaldo silenced his critics by scoring 2 goals, Andy Carroll was specifically inserted into England’s lineup for his aerial ability and promptly delivered a goal… but what has Robben done besides wave his hands up in the air like he just don’t care?
Don’t mean to sound harsh but I am utterly disappointed with him.
As far as Hunter,
we all know what he can do. He was our leading scorer during qualifying. He has an amazing games to goal ratio.
In the friendlies leading up to the tournament and also during the chances he got playing, he was not getting service. Our midfielders just were not able or unwilling to give him the ball in situations where he is deadly.
On the other hand, he has to work hard with his communication and positioning. He was isolated for most of the time. He was also well marked by defenders. He needs to run and move a lot to confuse defenders and allow himself to be open so he can receive a pass and score.
People here have already given up on RVP and now Hunter. Who else do we have that’s proven? LDJ needs to move abroad and prove himself. Wolfswinkel is too young, although he shows a lot of promise. We can’t just dump both strikers. We need the others to be able to carry the torch. They need to be integrated into the team and slowly take over. We can’t just throw them and hope they are ready before the next World Cup.
i will not disagree with you simply because you are correct in that we have no one else. But for the next coach, I hope he focuses on plays, tactics instead hoping that one player up front bangs them in. Portugal have a very bad striker, yet we would love to be in their shoes right now.
Hunter has scored internationally against very INFERIOR opposition when we have already dominated the game. Against Brazil in the quarters, he is found with an empty net and yet takes 4 and half hours to decide what to do with the ball. One only wonders the thoughts going through his mind. My guess: world piece, resolving the political crisis in peru and purchasing organic bananas
Re-watching the game (sadly) and a few observations…
1. For the first 15 minutes the Dutch are a SOLID team… defense, pressing, passing, offense…. they are complete. Why couldn’t they maintain this?
2. After vdv scores the goal Steve Mcmanaman says “Fantastic start for the Dutch isn’t it? They don’t have to take any chances now. They don’t have to give ANY space away to the portuguese side…They got the early goal. Plenty, plenty, plenty, plenty, of time left…..” EXACTLY! Why didn’t Bert or the players understand this basic concept??? ”
3. Vlaar punts a ball in the 14th minute to an opposing player rather than a simple ‘pass and restart’ to his GK. It didn’t lead to anything, but still… Why?
… The Dutch made it SO hard on themselves for NO reason.
1) The Dutch were not the most out of form team in this tournaments. They were the most out of form team of all tournaments. They were the most out of form team of a golf tournament. Usually, when playing 90 mins of footy, you get tired as a professional footballer starting fromt he 40th min, then half time, then you get tired starting from the 65th min for players over 30 (hence subs) or 85th min for under 30. This is the way ‘normal’ teams operate. This team, was not ‘normal’. Skill amounts to ZERO (ironically the number of points they collected) when you are out of shape. What does this mean? When 3-4 people are out of shape in your team, the other 6 are burned out very quickly, since it is like playing without part of your team. If you play with 10 players, you get burned out, imagine if you play with 6 or 7.
2)Look at point 1)…the goal changes nothing. The team was not only out of shape, but also tactically inept, given that VDV was never going to stay at defensive midfield position.
3)AFter we get a new coach and everything is sorted out, we will become great again. Ron Vlaar is to the Bert era what Danny Landzat was to the Van Basten era.
And about the fact that the loss against Denmark spoiled everything, let’s admit that it could also happen in 2010 if Poulsen hadn’t scored a own goal. We weren’t better than them.
Overmars : Few points I disagree with you though. First one is Afellay, Afellay has been absolutly brillant during qualify games, and last year, the friendly against Brazil, he was our best player, Brazil was far better, Neymar was enjoying against Van der Wiel more than Ronaldo yesterday, most of our players were not good, it was really a game which looked like those of this EC…Only Afellay was giving a really good impression.
Don’t look at his situation in Barcelona, many very good players had the same there. You cannot say Kuyt would be a better option, maybe he fights, bring a good spirit etc. but with a ball he is really poor, what did he in 2010 ? He was playing bad every game and everyone wanted Elia.
Against Denmark Afellay was maybe the one who created the most (With Sneijder), and yesterday he wasn’t bad against Portugal. He just played a really bad half against Germany before to go out, I agree, but that’s all, it’s 45 minutes. You can’t attack him for that.
I also disagree about the fact we shouldn’t want players of dutch league. Ok, it’s globaly weak, but it’s especially defences which are, we always had and we still have really good midfielders and forwards. Put Luuk De Jong in german or english league, he would score at least 15/20 goals, it’s a complete striker. Players like Strootman, Clasie, Anita, Maher, Wijnaldum, Narsingh, John etc. are really good players, sure it’s not the top, they’re young, but all of them are going to play in good european teams in few years.
I know some people say “but they’re already 21-22, at this age Robben and Van Persie were already playing in Chelsea and Arsenal”, I would answer that Robben and Van Persie had the luck to play with Feyenoord and PSV while the defence in Holland wasn’t yet a problem, Feyenoord could win a european cup and PSV reach semi finals few years later, now there is a big level difference between defence and attack, not in Ajax thanks to Vertonghen, but you can look at Twente, AZ, PSV, in european cups they always showed that they are able to play very good, but because of weak defenders, it’s impossible to do something. That’s why Chelsea isn’t going to put 19 Mo on John like they did for Robben, because it’s a Twente player, a weak team, PSV had a better reputation. It doesn’t mean than Robben when he was 19 was much better than John now.
BTW Belgium will surpass Holland by 2014. I have no doubt about that.
All they really need is a top striker and a full back and they’re good to go.
Holland need to produce atleast two World class defenders and mabe a world class winger to replace Robben by 2014 or they have no chance
@Nad,
I disagree with Belgium passing Holland by 2014. They had a good side as it is now. Why did they fail to qualify? Yes, they will get better but I also believe that we’ll get better too.
We just need to get our act together. I’m sure a new defense will be much better than what we had with Mathijsen and Heitinga. It’s hard to be worse than what they did. We don’t even need them to be world class. They just need to be competent enough to allow our midfield and forwards to play their game.
other observations:
– The writing was on the wall… The chances went begging for the Portuguese.. Why didn’t the Dutch tighten up? They were so lucky to have a 1 goal lead after the 19 minute mark.
– Van der Wiel practically gave the ball to Helder Postiga for a 1-on-1 with Stek. Was he this terrible at the WC? What happened to him?
Douglas will be a rock solid central defender….
Willems as LB will get better
Move Kuyt to RB
The nucleus is still there….
De Jong and Strootman
Huntelaar, VDV, Sneijder, RvP, Narsingh, Robben, Afellay
To all the naysayers – this was a combination of back luck, bad finishing and bad defending – this will not replicate itself again. We have a wonderful generation of youngsters coming through.
RvP as CF will not be tolerated again if he fails to put away his chances. KJH did us proud in the qualifiers and he has many able replacements coming through Castaignos, Van Wolfswinkel, Bas Dost.
Be happy, be proud….
We’ve won a EK – its time to win a WK final…..
Lets support our boys. theyll need it – they are competitive sportman and have suffered a humiliating loss. We feel it as countrymen but they must live it everyday. Theyll be back and they be hungrier for success.
WK2010 was just out of reach WK2014 will be our moment!
There we go, things like this will keep me and more ppl coming back, tired of reading all these harsh things and negativity. Keep the support high and the future will look bright, it will start again in August and if we do things right this time it will end with a cup we’ve deserved for way too long now. Oranje is de kleur van gekte! Hup Holland Hup!
I love to see Oranje fans being optimistic and able to put this disappointment behind them. However, let’s be realistic. We need a lot of work to get to where we need to go. A lot of these new players that you guys keep mentioning have potential. They have not proved themselves yet. Even if they prove themselves individually, they have to do it as a team. Some of them will succeed and take the mantle while others will sadly not get there.
The good thing is that we have talent coming through the ranks. My advice is to be cautiously optimistic.
Disagree with a lot on here…
1. That we can’t start Eredivisie players? Yes they are not as tested, but look at Pieters?? He starts for the NT and he is very solid. Look at ELIA at the WC, he tore it up! Afellay is still pretty much an Eredivisie talent…
2. Minimizing Kuyt’s effect. We all, including myself, did not realize how much his presence would be missed. He tracked, he was that midfield link and a menace. This is a major major reason we lost.
3. That we cannot try other strikers because RVP and KJH are our best players…how often did Raul start for Spain even when he was killing it with RM? Almost never.. I love RVP but man oh man has he let us down. Time to pass the torch…he has scored like a goal per tournament…with less superstars im sure we could do better.
4. That Belgium will be better than us by 2014. Give me a break! That country almost split up 2 years ago and still might. Great chocolate, great waffles and amazing beer. Shit soccer. Sure they have some good talent, but their midfield sucks and they have 1 or 2 decent forwards. Other than their ridiculous defense, what is so special about the team? Where is their pitbull in midfield or playmaker? Come on. We WILL be back.
@ paul, many good points here.
2. kuyt – agreed 100%. watching this replay of yesterday’s game, we should have taken off Wiel and inserted kuyt to man-mark him, he would have been much better….
3. you hit the nail on the head with the Raul analogy. Even Klose has been given little or no time to impress despite his record-setting numbers. i think we need to give those selfless eredivisie guys important roles for the qualifiers. luuk de jong, strootman, anita etc. even the ones who recently moved to bigger homes like bas dost and v wolf.
4. belgium lacks strategy but do have plenty of talent especially defensively. they boast many big name players but we are proof of how that ‘big-name BS can blow up in your face.
*to man mark Crybaby7
Also, bringing in the eredivisie guys for some qualifiers may give them a bit more exposure as well, so they can have more of a chance to move abroad.
Its hard to players like Strootman to showcase himself when PSV hasnt been in the CL for 4 years…
Tonight expert Jan Mulder was really finishing of vPersie on National TV, said his career was more or less over for oranje. They also showed Robben shouting at vMarwijk, the whole bench behind Marwijk with Narsingh etc was looking like: wooow! what the hell is this? By now it is clear the mood in the group was very bad and that there were divisions. There seems to have been a scuffle with Bouma and the doctor and also arguments in the team against vd Wiel. Alo manager Jorritsma seems to have dictated the group public activities and that the hotel was some kind of fortress and the players could only leave together, with security. This seemed to have created a stifling mood where the players could not get away from, even for a moment. It sounds all pretty bad.
Jorritsma he also made the arrangment that we traveled 1000 km every 4 days.
Sam I followed Twente a bit but Douglas had a very bad season, at the moment he is not even oranje material. They showed a slapstick clip of him few months ago chasing attacker halfblind and stumbling. If he wont improve fast youngsters like Nuytinck and vRhijn, Viergever will pass him by.
Douglas makes a lot of big mistakes which cost goals, he isn’t regular in the dutch league, but against good teams in european cup, he is the only one twente defender who is good. But it’s not easy for him next to Rosales, Wiserghof and Tiendalli who are totally unable to defend.
Regardless of his mistakes, he is quite fast for a CB and he is really strong, big presence, we really need that behind.
you know after germany’s rude hard awakening in 2004 they were such a young, fun team to watch in 2006, 2008, and 2010… even though they are our rival.. you have to admire that. and hopefully we will start rebuilding NOW with young hungry selfless players… it almost makes me happy to see that there is a silver lining.
@ dutch dream:
wow. robben…what is his deal??
so the mood in holland is that RVP is done?
another point:
those of you hating on Steks i encourage you to watch this game again… it is a miracle the game is still tied at the 68 min mark thanks to him.
@ JAN. if you are reading this can you please create a a new section here entitled “Countdown to Crybaby” where all your readers and writers predict when he will cry in the tournament (at what stage portugal will go down). That would be awesome!
I would not say that Paul, but there sure is massive public resistance against him and open talk of ending his career. The coming days people will look for scapegoats for this enormous failure and huge deception. We were vice world champions just 2 yrs ago. The perception is that Hunter was not properly serviced so he cant be blamed too much, but vPersie for the third time could not fulfil the expectations.
I would never give up on a brilliant player like Robben.
Even vd Vaart altho he looks overweight and wont be the old Rafa anynore, I would try to make him better and use as sub for Maher. But me too I like to see the end of vPersie, altho he is a great player he could never bring it to oranje..
For people who don’t know, apparently, there are two clans :
-Van Persie clan (Afellay, Van Bommel, Bouma, Boulahrouz…)
-Sneijder clan (VDV, Robben,Huntelaar and all Ajax players…)
The first one gives instructions to Van Marwijk and the second one wants the Ajax style 4-3-3 with Ajax players, only Robben is a special case, as he never played with Ajax but follow them.
In fact, VM talks more with some players than others : he talks a lot with Van Persie as they know each other from Feyenoord, that’s why he is untuchable. He talks a lot with Van Bommel too, I think everyone knows why.
Let’s add that Van Marwijk listens a lot to Cocu, who is a “PSV’er” and who brought Willems to the team.
That’s why Robben, Sneijder and Huntelaar were angry at VM, they all think he plays with a bad tactic and make choice on some players opinion…
A long as those 2 play together we are screwed thats why vPersie must go, he will alway polarize and divide and wants the team plays for him when we have Sneijder. There will always be dissatisfaction with vpersie.
I been wondering a lot about Cocu. The whole time he was only sitting there, I havent seen him saying one thing, he never jumped up to instruct the team, he just sat there blinking. He never showed any emotion. He was just hitchhiking. And faber I have not even seen him at all. I wonder what their input has been. Oh how we missed our fiery Frank de Boer, he was the one who got angry in 10.
its really strange…
the only difference between this team and the team that almost beat Spain is FDB and Kuyt…..
I wouldnt have any objections to bringing them both back to their old roles – albeit Kuyt as RB 😉
And how could i forget Gio?!
Cocu did nothing and vMarwijk was on his own. All the assistants and managers sat there like ghosts.
But Kuyt… I was disappointed by him when he got in the last 5 mins against Denmark and ran around headless.
lets see
Afellay has been injured, time will tell if he returns to form
Van Bommel, his time is over, too old, too slow – Strootman is the better option
Bouma, im indifferent on, there are better in his position
Boula, terrible past but Oranje is bigger than that (as above)…
Van Persie, a troubled, spoiled brat – WK2010 was his chance, Denmark was all his fault, against Germany he should have scored to put us up 2-0, not get a consolation at 2-1. With Portugal its proof that he cant play as a winger and hes just not Oranje CF material.
And then the 2nd bunch…
Robben, 2 CL finals, a WK final and has scored valuable goals for Oranje (unlike the other Rob)….maybe not the one we wanted him to but Casillas was lucky…he dived the wrong way and the tip of his boot denied us a 1-0 lead.
Sneijder, along with Xavi and Iniesta, the best playmaker of his generation. Won CL and in the absence of a firing CF almost singlehandedly dragged Oranje to a WK final. He has been our single shining light at EK2012
Huntelaar, has bided his time. Should have been more than a sub at WK2010. In fact scored just as many goals at WK as RvP, with very little playing time. Led us through the qualifiers and is much better in the air, does less aeroplane arm running around and is constantly marked in the penalty area. He was pushed in the back against Portugal in the box (should have been penalty) and should have been awarded a penalty (or two) against Denmark (hand balls).
Besides, the man plays with passion. Broken nose? no problem! Concussion? no problem! I’ll bet that Denmark and especially Germany were glad that Hunter was warming the bench for most of the match.
@Laurent. If what you say is true then RvP is still the same old piece of junk that he used to be when he was 20. I always wondered what made Bert be so nice to him even when he offended him openly in WC2010. It fucked up, same old shit with our orange players fighting like bitches. To hell with them.
@ LAurent:
IT is still inexcusable to tell your manager to shut his mouth.
Anyone else would get fired if they told their supervisor to shut their mouth!
But again, robben has never been a professional.
Why did sneijder spend more time complaining to the refs than tracking back? that i didnt understand…
I do however agree that Robben whilst a valuable member of Oranje – was COMPLETELY out of line to yell at his coach. Not a good example to other members of the team.
Regardless of the dressing room issues that is not on!
He should get a suspension… I love Arjen but he must be shown that it was out of line.
@overmars. You are spot on all your comments about players and Bert. I have been very hard on Bert but in the end these are the players. I still think he should go, no matter what. In such a disaster the manager should go first. A new manager should come in with new ideas and clear this house of losers. I don’t mind losing with a new team but I am convinced that there is more than enough players in Holland to beat Turkey etc. You only need a manager who is willing to look for them.
Bert is not to blame….
These players were good enough.
Except maybe VDW…that performance was atrocious!
RvP should have put away his chances – Robben and Afellay need to look up and pass more often but they can still finish chances on their day.
They were schoolboy errors to allow Gomez through and for Stek to drop too low too quickly and VDW just didnt track CR all game long.
I despise Ronaldo but his is a classy finisher (most of the time) and you cant give him that kind of space – Bert certainly is not at fault for VDW failing to properly mark him.
I still believe in van Marwijk
Jan, thanks a lot for your blog. Especially at this moment in time it’s such a consolation to be able to discuss Oranje and their trouble.
Hup JAN Hup
Youre a champ Jan!
I had trouble logging onto the site a couple of times due to the site traffic i guess from the Euro matches and if there is ever any kind of support you need – let us know. Im sure we can donate to the site maintenance.
Maybe a PAYPAL donation link?
Either way – great job so far. 2014 is not so far away. Looking forward to all the news and stories for the next 2 years!
Love your blog, Jan. Thank you! Dank u wel!
Would it be possible to give some sort of feedback button on comments? That way we might be able to gauge how popular an analysis is among commenters.
that would be awesome, your comment would have my approval. lol
indeed.. paypal is a great idea for site maintenance/upgrades, etc! i will donate too
Sick of the whining, however Dutch that may be.
We have lions! Sneijder, Robben, Van der Vaart, Van Persie, Huntelaar! These are players of legend.
We’ll be back, with an orange vengeance.
The hell with anyone who says we won’t! HUP!
The way many of you Oranje fans treat RvP is a disgrace. Personally as an Arsenal supporter I would rather he never played for Oranje again. Come home, Robin. They don’t want you over there.
Keep Van Persie, we need titles, not Arsenal philosophy.
Frank:
No it’s the other way around, the way that Robin van Persie has acted and played is a disgrace. Only Arsenal supporters love him, but unfortuntately this here is not an Arsenal blog, it’s the Oranje one…
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