After this abysmal downfall of Bert van Marwijk and the clobbering Oranje received this Summer it is simply not realistic that our Oranje would swing against a pretty strong Turkey.
Our expectations, as fans, is always: AANVALLUHH!!!!! But we also need to be realistic: even our top players have nerves (and egos) and need to feel the flow to perform better.
That element in itself gave me butterflies :-). Add to that Louis van Gaal (say no more) and the fact we do need to bring some new blood and this is a recipe for….excitement. (use any word: nightmares, constipation, drama, disaster….)
I didn’t get around to do an elaborate pre-match analysis but I did post yesterday that I felt LVG was overdoing it… Bringing Clasie, Janmaat, BMI, Fer maybe…
And unfortunately, I was right.
Sure, we need to bring new players. Van der Wiel was not an option – apparently – but Janmaat is really untested. Made it only recently from Heerenveen to Feyenoord. Played Heracles and Heerenveen and Sparta Prague… Was that enough, Louis?
Wasn’t Van Rhijn more logical?
And sure, BMI is a sensational talent, but Douglas surely adds a bit more experience?
So, the Turks exposed us and deserved more than zero goals… I’m not saying they deserved a point, but they could have easily scored two. And could have taken the three points…
Someone on the blog pointed out that the lines were – again – too far dispersed. Too big a space for Clasie and Sneijder to manage. Strootman manages that well, like Fer, he is dynamic and likes to go box to box. But the cohesion was lacking and Jordy Clasie can’t be expected to bring that.
The question obviously is: what were LVG’s alternatives… And true, there weren’t too many.
Van der Vaart can play there, De Jong obviously, Afellay even, De Guzman… But LVG felt they didn’t deserve the call up.
Which puzzles me, in the case of De Guzman. He is impressing just like Fer and Clasie, but he is doing it in the EPL. Bit of a difference.
Let us rejoice.
Strootman played world class. Narsingh does what wingers need to do. Robben showed his class and form and his passion for Oranje. Van Persie scored (a novelty for Oranje 🙂 ) and we do have top talents coming up.
Let’s hope LVG is able to have them perform at the right level in time!
Let’s hope youngsters like Willems, Janmaat, Clasie, Martins Indi, Maher and the likes won’t be suffocated under the weight of expectations…
Coming Tuesday, it’s Hungary.
Louis was happy with most of his choices: “Tim Krul did well. Sure, he made some mistakes but every player was nervous for this one. The first one. Tim brings more rest to the defence. He did well. I followed Stekelenburg closely over the last months and he does tend to make the same mistakes.”
And the coach again: “I had to keep my arse tightly closed on the bench… It was not an easy game. The first game in the series is key. Now Turkey needs to chase and I know from experience that is not easy. I would like to compliment Martins Indi and Willems, who started badly but totally came back into the game. That says something of their mentality and skill. They’re young and they can bring this. Wonderful! I did see the chances Turkey got, but I think we had more opportunities. We dominated in the second half. We were a bit vulnerable at corners. Something to work on.”
There was quite a funny moment after Holland’s second goal. Bruno Martins Indi decided to run full speed to the coach and celebrate with him. “I saw him running towards me and I though….he is a big boy… I am not going to be able to hold him…. You know, I just had a hip replacement. He could have snapped me in two.” The young defender tackled Van Gaal to the ground but Van Gaal came away unscathed. “Well, it’s wonderful that he knows that we have done this together and to have the bench join in the celebrations is great. And I think my hip is ok. Although you never know…”
This has that funny scene 🙂
Arjen Robben was happy. “Listen, this was not the best not the most beautiful win, but it sure was an important one! Everyone worked so hard. And I think it’s normal that Turkey got these chances. That is a good team. And our defence is young, so you can’t blame the young lads. They’ll improve. This is a big step up.”
Skipper Sneijder: “This was a demonstration of hard work and mentality. Will power. We even could have scored more often. And yes, they did get chances, but that was more a result of our mistakes. Not because they were so good. It’s something for these young lads, to play at this level in a stadium half filled with Turkish fans. They (the defence) deserves compliments for the way they stayed in the game.”
Sorry have been AWOL lately, ill be back soon…
Great to get the win!
Very surprised to see the lineup but i am glad LVG grew a set and took a chance on these guys!
Great early wedding present! All is well!
Love your posts, Jan.
I think Douglas will be with us soon. Didn’t he hurt his ankle?
I just watched the second half one more time, so here are my observations.
1. we were better in the 2nd half but I attribute this a lot to Turkey playing with considerably less energy than the 1st. We were more composed but they were a lot less dangerous.
Overall not very impressed with Turkey, not sure if they will finish 2nd in the group. We got to see the others. Hopefully they are more shyte.
2. Our lines were a lot better than previous games but still left a lot to be desired. Credit goes to Robben who tracked back a lot.
3. Our defense is as shyte as it was before. Just trying to be honest here and not to spoil the party. But Strootman and others did a better job controlling the middle than before.
4. LVG made dangerous line up in defense, BMI is good passer and he helps build up but I cant trust him for CB. Jaanmat should come back after 2-3 years, he looked green. Jetro is ok so was Heitinga. Krul made some mistakes, not sure leaving Steks out is good but they are both good.
5. Sneijder as usual veered to the left (DRB300, please take a look he does it all the time not just when VdV is in the pitch). In this case, and with Robben at the left side, I think RVP is the only choice for striker. Hunter doesn’t work in this system.
We could have lost the game but we had all the luck we didnt have with Danemark. That is always a good thing. We need luck. We also had good lungs, we run and chased all 90 minutes. But I am still super worried, I don’t consider the other games any easier. LVG should stand for Las Vegas, cause the guy gambles a lot 🙂
Today it worked, or better it didn’t fail. Next time?
nice points, Demi.. what’s your last name one more time? just kidding.
disappointed that I missed this game.
It’s not Demi Moore for sure 🙂 🙂 🙂
Good points Demi. If we can pull another win on Tuesday I’d feel much more comfortable.
thanks Guys, I am very happy overall. We run good, we didn’t stop trying and I feel the Strootman – Fer combo can effectively destroy the opponent’s game in a way that only vBommel and DeJong could…
Strootman, what a guy … pressing 90 mins. awesome.. runs like a horse 🙂
Fer, I loved his tackling… no holds barred just like Nigel.
I know a lot of folks here think that Bommel and DeJong were “thugs” but they were the main reason we made it so high under BvM….
It is of utmost importance to have two supercharged DMs … That’s the only way to stop triangle machines like Spain. Plus Stroot and Fer can also do box2box and help the offense more.
I am truly hopeful with these two. I love players who give it all. That has been so lacking for many years till guys like Bommel/DeJong/Mathijsen/Steks showed up. That’s why I was so in love with the BvM team. They will give 110% of what they had.
I just hope one day I can say again “Holland in the World Cup Final!!!!!!!!”
Sneijder played to the left because his position was left midfield. He was playing exactly where he was supposed to play.
hey guys i was unfortunately i was un able to watch the game as it was 4am in australia in the morning here and there was no coverage have only seen a bit of the highlights… but i have to give a big thanks to Jan and the rest of you guys who have given a great summary of the game in this post and the previous much appreciated… going to watch a replay later today but sounds like an interesting game but thank god for the win…. thanks again
i have also set up a fantasy champions league for us… here are the details
league name – ChampionsBleedOranje league code – 588180-421062
I think Douglas and VDW could make our defence more reliable.
I’ve been saying all this time. Fer is the type of player Oranje lacked in the recent past… A physical, box-to-box midfielder who is willing to cover every inch of the pitch. Also comfortable on the ball. He did make some neat passes forward, not his defenders/keeper. Think of him as a poor man’s Yaya Toure. (Or perhaps a healthy Abou Diaby is the closest comparison). Based on this game alone (which, I know, it’s not much proof), Fer starting alongside Sneijder is a must. The holding midfielder is for Strootman to lose, at least for the time being. He did much better than I expected. Worked awfully hard to close down his opposing players, and what a pass he made to Narsingh. His alternative is Anita.. another overzealous midfielder who is quick and resilient. Poor Clasie, he didn’t have much to show today, and it looks like he is back to the sideline. Which is irony, because I think compared to Anita/Strootman/Fer, Clasie has the best ball distribution. He lacked the ‘fire’ today, maybe just wanted to play it safe on his debut. But he’s still 21/22 (?), a lot of years ahead of him. He just needs to be patient.
Clasie looked like a deer in the headlights. Might be an idea to try him against a lesser opponent.
@eric, I agree. He definitely deserved my Heineken. I try to follow all the new players but Fer just wasn’t one of them but when I saw him yesterday maaann, and yes this is what we were looking for
and yeah, we shouldn’t kill Clasie just yet, besides he didn’t make mayor mistakes, he just wasn’t in the game. He looked confused when he was in between 2-3 Turkish players and released the ball too soon…
agree. I feel Classie can fit in the system. I think Jordie did ok conidering Turkey played very hard in the first half and he should be given more chances.
But Fer-Stroot should be in at all times.
Clasie was nervous, as is to be expected of someone who`s first cap is a start in one of the most important WCQs against the most difficult opponent in the group. He needs more chances to build his confidence.
I guess we jinxed it… 🙂 Fer is not able to go on Tuesday, and is replaced by Maher in the squad. Lucky boy Clasie.. he gets to keep his place. Hope he’ll do much better this time around.
although the Fer-Strootman duo has me excited big time, I think we can beat Hungary without Fer. But I would not put Classie as the DM, Stroot should be there.
We just need to keep the focus. That’s it. Keep running, pressing, staying in the game.
Couldn’t watch the game either, so my biggest question is did they play with eggs?
some yes, some no. overall a yes. They run, they pressed, they didn’t let go (we had a seizure for 10-15 mins in the first half).
Biggest “eggs” ? Strootman.
Overall the eggs department was not bad, the skills department needs more improvement.
Much better picture than the last friendly. But LVG = Las Vegas 🙂 Expect the unexpected from him …
haha….what happens with van gaal stays with van gaal
I hope we can get Pieters and Van Der Wiel and Douglas back, retire Mathijsen. Janmaat is not ready yet. Don’t ruin him. Perhaps Anita and Emmanuelson can get some experiences some times too.
Wow, did we have a mix of youth and experience….Demi, all good points. Strootman was oustanding…25mins into the second half Sneijder took charge…who care where he was, he took charge. And then we played Oranje!
Martins Indi will be 1st class very soon…I think we need to give Weil another chance. Also very happy to see RVP get the start.
Oh, and LVG…he is making some very good choices. I think we will see him make some more changes yet
Yes, many huevos (eggs) or big balls. In that departament Strootman was outstanding. This guy is a Cocu reloaded.
Clasie was not bad but he was extremely nervous. Fer ruled the midfield in the Second he entered the pitch. Indi and Willems made stupid mistakes but Turkey did not punish us. I am positive for the future. Mathijsen??? In the bench, thank God and LVG!
We won at home vs our strongest rival. Looking forward to see more of this revolution.a
vamos cabrones!! naranja all the way! sneijder is amazing invited him here to our blog!
I like the new Robben, menacing, sprinting, passing. I was the one who criticized him, but your just a totally different guy on the right.
one thing the team can improve on is that when they see the opponent exploiting weaknesses such as janmaat and willems, the others should help to put more bodies and cover the spaces. In the BMI “almost own goal” incident, the winger had too much space to make the cross.
If they want to make short passes in between defenders, I wouldn’t btw!! but since I think its a dutch team DNA thing. then the midfielders should create their own space, so that when the defenders are under pressure they can release it quickly to them and avoid going to the goalkeeper. Again, I still believe it would (affirmative) be 1-1 if we were playing the big guns and we would all be harsh on willems. At club level, besides the dutch league, they hardly ever go back to the golie. They prefer long shoots to a nobody then dangerously giving it to the goalkeeper. It still amazes me why they want to live dangerously.
I love Van Rhijns composure on one on one situations. Left Sahin and Arda Turan crying like little babies who missed their meal a few times.
well; reckon we have to realize that we will much more of these kind of games. I was actually very happy to see so many new faces and see a dutch team fight till the last minute to survive. A very important win for many of these youngsters. Van Gaal will prop. start the Hungary game with the line-up that ended this Turkey game.
well done to the young guys!
I saw a lot to like. Great width, especially in the second half. This was totally lacking in the 4231. Good fluidity between the mids and the forwards. Wonderful tenacity and energy from strootman and fer. I look forward to seeing 90 mins from fer to get a full look at him. Narsingh has swagger, pace, “eggs”. RVP was transcendent in the 1st half, sneider + robben in the 2nd half. I totally agree that RVP is the #1 choice for striker in this system — his vision and distribution in the 1st half were so exciting.
Yes, Clasie was cowed. He’s young, and the Turks did a great job pressing during the 1st half, making it hard for him to get in rhythm. Hard to get apples to apples comparison with Fer due to the major dip in Turkish energy 2nd half. I think Fer and Clasie both have a chance to become world class. Exciting.
The defence was super shaky. Of course it was. These guys haven’t played together, 3 out of 4 were kids, Pieters wasn’t available… LvG clearly wanted to audition a couple of guys for right back. Risky, but necessary. VDW has been crap since WK2010, he has regressed. Not writing him off, but he needs to show consistent commitment and hunger to get better and better at club level before getting recalled. van Rhijn looked quite good, but just like Clasie-Fer, hard to compare apples to apples with Janmaat.
I’m thinking Louie vG is the right guy at the right time. His flair, his unpredictability, his zaniness, so far seems to have freed up these guys to play with passion and joy. The Martins Indi flying hug was priceless. RVP and Robben seemed to have a huge weight off their shoulders — they played unbounded. The nerves, the shakiness, the young kids played through them because they felt the coach would have their backs. And I love LvG’s post match comments — candor re. performance + support and encouragement for the kids. Now, Las Vegas may eventually blow back in his and our faces. But at least the ride will be exciting, new guys will be established as world class with the freedom to strut their stuff, and the guys will be playing dutch football, finally.
Agree 100% with you. Great Post 🙂
Very pleased with this result given we still have Pieters, de Jong, Afellay, van der Vaart and van der Weil to return and maybe Douglas to debut (although I wonder if that will ever happen). De Guzman should join his brother Julian and play for Canada, too many quality Dutch MF’s ahead of him. If Douglas doesn’t get a call with the thin pool at CB, de Guzman as no shot in MF.
I can’t figure Narsingh out, one minute I love him and the next I hate him! If Afellay gets fit I wonder if he’s a better fit in that spot?
Classie will be fine, but I would rather see Fer in that spot for now. I liked how Fer and Strootman played, perhaps a Cocu / Davids type combination.
It will be interesting to see how they play on the road in Budapest on Tuesday!
LVG criticizes his young players (soccernet.com)
Netherlands coach Louis van Gaal feels his younger players were below par in his side’s World Cup qualifying win over Turkey on Friday.
Manchester United’s Robin van Persie and PSV Eindhoven’s Luciano Narsingh were the men on the scoresheet for the Dutch in a 2-0 home win.
But Van Gaal, who picked a collection of fresh faces following the country’s poor performance at Euro 2012, will expect better from his players in future games.
A lot of the manager’s criticism was directed at Feyenoord pair Jordy Clasie and Daryl Janmaat.
“Janmaat was not Janmaat,” Van Gaal told De Telegraaf. “Clasie can offer a lot going forward, but he did not. That’s why I changed them after the break.”
Janmaat was hauled off at half-time, whilst Clasie was replaced soon after the break, but these weren’t the only ones to feel Van Gaal’s wrath.
“In the first-half I was also dissatisfied with Martins Indi and Jetro Willems, but in the second-half they improved handsomely,” Van Gaal explained after the match. “That is very impressive at that age and says a lot about those guys.”
Van Gaal’s disappointment was outweighed by the victory, which saw Netherlands overcome a tricky start against Turkey. The last time the former Barcelona boss was in charge of the national team, they failed to qualify for the 2002 World Cup, with Van Gaal hoping to right that wrong this time around.
“Where then we started badly in the (Amsterdam) ArenA with 2-2 against Ireland, now we have a good start,” Van Gaal said. “That’s wonderful. “It is very important that we have won the first game, otherwise you are immediately behind the pace.
“I think the public enjoyed it, you could see that from their reactions. We had many more chances than the Turks.”
Thank god Van Gaal sees it as it is and is not afraid to raise them. But Louis, I hope somewhere hidden in your notes it says “Sneijder below par, should be giving more especially as captain”
I think I & Narsingh will be like Tiju & Kuyt lol 😀 .
but honestly the guy is neither a new overmars , robben , zenden nor even a new elia !
I’m glad he scored for his confidence , but he is not a good dribbler at all , his vision is not that great too .
Even his crosses yesterday wasn’t good .
I think Ola john , Elia if he could gain his 2010 form , Afellay or even Dr ridder if he started to play well for herenveen will be better options . actually even Lens is at least a better dribbler .
however , tbh he scored 3 goals in 3 games he played with Oranje , that means he has something .
Let’s wait and see .
I agree with you Mohamed on Narsingh. He is very athletic and strong but especially yesterday his crosses were bad. But you can’t dispute the fact that he has scored 3/3 and that’s what counts.
Tiju and Kuijt..those are some big shoes to fill! haha
Yesterday’s game was very important for all the team .
It was important for the old lads ” Robben , sneijder , persie and Heitinga ” to regain their confidence after the bad Euro games and belguim game , Important for the young lads as it was their first official game on the international level , important for van gaal himself after the disastrous 2002 qualifications .
Mohammed, I totally agree with you. I am glad we are on the same page. I said yesterday that Narsingh is playing at the moment because we have nobody else. But when others emerge such as all those you mentioned and even perhaps Lukoki, Narsingh will be benched. To me, the most glaring problems with him are his lack of touch and vision. He reminds me of all the wingers the English produce(Lennon, Walcott, Oxlade) ie all speed and nothing else. No football brain. I mean how could he not have seen Robben totally free on the right side. This was a sure goal. And he had at least 10-15 seconds to make the decision to pass. So much time and an enormous gap between the Turkish defenders yet he proceeded to run with his head down.
I also agree about everything else Mohammed and Balkan said. Great confidence boost. Now we need another win to keep that winning mentality up.
Wait on narsingh,… I see more in him than the likes of afellay, Elia and babel. Even the great Robben misses the occasional pass… That comes with experience and by feedback and coaching
Narsingh is impressive athletically and phsically–but how does he not see Robben WIDE OPEN on the right side of the field, with no one on him for 5, 10 seconds? That was inexcusable.
That said, the infusion of new blood is a good thing, and the Dutch have young talent. Get Pieters back, continue to strengthen the back four and midfield: we could be strong in WC. I think Sneijder is lazy at times and that is a problem with this team. Am I wrong? I’m curious to know if Affelay will have a role going forward. Talented kid–even if he’s a bit of a prick, apparently–and could be a help in midfield as opposed to wing.
> I think Sneijder is lazy at times and that is a problem with this team. Am I wrong?
no. you are not wrong. Perhaps Classie should be groomed to take Sneijder’s role instead of being a DM …
Fer is out and Maher in for the upcoming game.
Knee injury, but nothing serious
Maher in place of Fer
I hope Clasie comes to life, come on CLASIE!!
Clasie lacks physique. It is his first game. He needs time to learn playing physical. I hope we can qualify and perhaps try either Strootman or Fer as 1 of the CB. We will play all 3 Strootman, Fer and Clasie in the starting 11. Now it is too early to try this.
This team is still a work in progress. We were lucky vs Turkey. I think we need to win the next game, slowly let the team identity forms and everyone gels.
Sneijder is not the same as in 2010, not sure if he ever gets that playing level back. Narsingh, well he needs to have better vision. Robben was open….but perhaps Narsingh recalled 2010 final, maybe Robben would miss again…
Never really liked vGaal – still don’t but….I like the unpredictablity and he calls a spade a spade. Immediately makes a change when he sees a problem. His thirst for new blood is also interesting. let’s hope he succeeds.
So Heitinga got cramps – wonder why ? He only had 4 min of real football behind him Louis !
This is a dangerous match to look back on. The 2-0 final score line tends to cover up the fact that things could very easily have been otherwise had Turkey snatched one of their excellent goal scoring opportunities. The best and most goal scoring opportunities fell to Turkey, but scoring the first goal allowed Holland a different approach to the game. Imagine if the 0-0 score line still existed during the second half, Turkey wouldn’t have been forced to deplete the midfield in order to try and scrape a goal – you may even doubt whether this was a wise move at the 1-0 score line.
This 4-3-3 is very much an all-or-nothing formation for Holland. The team was lucky with Turkey lack of conversion today, but certainly harbors the qualities to make this formation work against inferior opposition and the remainder of the qualifying campaign runs the risk of being a bad reflection of what’s going to be in stake for the team against equal sides. On a more positive note, Van Gaal successfully introduced several youngsters to the team, thereby meeting one of his early goals as national team manager.
More on: http://11tegen11.net/2012/09/08/holland-2-0-turkey-camouflage-for-defensive-frailties/
this was a very correct and well written analysis
What is surprising for me is that so few of you are praising Robben!
He was fantastic. I had pretty much written him off after the Euros, because I thought he was mentally broken, but man, did he play with spirit in this match. There are few players in the world who have his speed, technical prowess and vision at his age still intact. Half of the game Robben was the engine that was pushing the team.
And whatever you might think about LvG, you have to admit, that guy has balls. When I saw the lineup my first thought was “what the fuck”. But it worked and I think he came away with some very valuable information from that match.
And whatever you might think about LvG, you have to admit, that guy has balls. When I saw the lineup my first thought was “what the fuck” .
LOL when I saw the lineup I said “thank god!”
These are exciting times for Oranje with all the new players coming up. By the time the WC rolls around these players will be set to go.
Jan: “Someone on the blog pointed out that the lines were – again – too far dispersed. Too big a space for Clasie and Sneijder to manage. Strootman manages that well, like Fer, he is dynamic and likes to go box to box. But the cohesion was lacking and Jordy Clasie can’t be expected to bring that.”
That was our problem in the first half and we can’t blame Clasie for the lack of going forward.
Janmaat – Heitinga – Martins Indi – Willems
– – – – – – – – Clasie – – – – – – – –
– – Strootman – – – – – Sneijder – –
– – Narsingh – v.Persie – Robben – –
You can’t have a fluid passing game with that much space between players. When a pass was played forward it took so long to get to the Oranje player and Turkey was able to apply pressure and close that area down. Oranje would then have to play it back to a CB or worse the GK. I remember the whole first half when our defenders would have the ball you wouldn’t see a single player after Clasie on screen.
Our youngsters at least have an excuse (nerves) for some of their mistakes. But what is Sneijder’s excuse for his play the last few games? He hasn’t been terrible just nonexistent. He is supposed to be our Xavi/Pirlo in midfield dictating the game; keeping the ball at his feet and finding the open lanes yet he doesn’t. He is now the captain so LvG won’t bench him but I’d like to see VdV take his spot along with Strootman & Fer in the midfield.
Van Gaal should get Sneijder and Van der Vaart into a competition for a midfield playmaker spot by telling them he’ll only play the best of either and not both of them. Not sure what the Bundesliga will do for VdV but Sneijder would definitely be better off playing in England than Italy.
totally agree about sneijder . the best club for him is man utd , however , i don’t think sir Alex will bring more dutch players to his team 🙂 . perhaps if murinho goes there after sir retires …
Van Gaal is not good for the dutch fans with heart problems… that young defence sure was nerve recking to watch…. loved the van persie goal!!! u don’t see him score too many of those.
looking forward to tues hup holland hup!
I admire all of you guys that were able to watch the game AND analyze our performance. I was so nervous, I feel like I did not do either 🙂
Still, it’s good to win, for a change!
Wait ,wait don’t be harsh on LVG,its BVM who put as in such a real Chaos,He never gave REAL chance to any youngsters except strootman and Williams,Williams case was funny and BVM was forced to give chances to him.I still remember that he always selects the experienced flops and select some youngsters and putting them in to field on 94 the minute of every match to prove their worth. So criticize BVM before criticizing LVG.I do felt that LVG is too experimental. Also I do admit that Victory was due to bit of luck.But LVG is in right track in terms of future, interms of dutch style of play and result.
Don’t be harsh on BMI,its true that he mixed up with Krul and he is just 20,and he played in such an important match for orange(I mean 4 consecutive loss and the strongest rival (turkey)in a WC qualifier)Hats off to such a 20 year old defender, luckily he got a chance to clear his mistake and He DID CLEAR IT IN VERY INTELLIGENT WAY. He had problems coz this was mainly due to Williams in the first half. Williams often lost his marker and it gave Indi the additional pressure, When Williams DID his duty in second half, Bruno too did well in the second half……
This is my REQUEST TO LUIS VANGAAL FOR JORDY CLASIE
Jordy calsie is superbly intelligent foot baller among the whole Dutch youngsters and perhaps in the whole world, I think only Gotze is close to him…Definitly he can be our XAVI.i have seen kuyt played as for winger for several years due to his work ETHICS.mainly for track back to balance the team…Since Clasie in Small in stature why don’t we try him there in 433 situation?he runs like kuyt and 1000 times more talented than kuyt,narsingh and many. .i am saying this coz Clasie is small and got outmuscled several times,turks played it hard.So Holding mid is not his ideal postion,coz of his physique. so let him Join with attack and let him helps the defense from attack.So let it be Leory,Strootman,Deguzman and Anita/Dejong as our holding mid.
If LVG wants to play 433 then he has to forget Hunter,Luuk dejong and basdost for the striker spot .433 needs better skilled strikers like Wolfswinkel and castaginos,who are pretty good on the ball.
Bruno martins——————————–Van Rhijn—-
Well Said Tiju.
I also think Clasie is a very good material.If i am the coach,i will definately try to get Sneijder share his experience and skills to Clasie.This new young lad is surely a future Sneijder.What do you think.
I like vGaal becos he is a creator,a true tactician and dare to take challenges.We need to forgive him if things didnt work out right sometimes.But still i am very confident and give my double support to him.Yeah…
Another positive thing is with VGaal taking charge,we will have more formations,not just 4321.Yeah yeah…
Anyway,my guessing is Oranje wins 1 ball against the Hungary.Let’s see if we can make it more than one.
Hup Holland Hup,
The lions are roaring,Yeah yeah yeah….
Tiju I really liked your post. Finally someone has to say that you can not play 4-3-3 if one of the middle 3 is Wes. Wes is one of our best players ever, he got us to the WK final but he cannot count as being one of the middle 3 in the 4-3-3. Period.
I am 100% about Classie. It is the absolutely wrong position to put him as DM. These is for bouncers like Fer and hustlers like Strootman. Classie is the perfect guy for pairing with Fer/Stroot in the middle. He has excellent technique, lungs and he can even develop better than Sneijder in the future.
Let Robben change sides at will. If it gets too crowded at the left with Wes, let him go to the right.
100% with you about poachers like Hunter cannot be part of the 4-3-3.
Last, The point made by DRB300 about ball handling speed is a true fact but it is not necessary to beat a team like Spain. Proven by BvM even a slower built up can accomplish the same if used properly. We simply didn’t have the youth development of Spain so we will not be able to triangle like them in this generation. It is too late for us. So putting Classie as the DM
1. will burn Classie , he doesn’t belong to that position.
2. But even if he did, just him and Wes are too few to improve the overall ball handling speed.
We will not be able to play the Spanish way for now but that means nothing. With Stroot / Fer / Classie in the middle 3, we can dream again about reaching a WK final.
I think if are able to minimize very basic individual errors, we are on course to becoming a strong or stronger team…
1.I’m not going to consider the first clear header turkey made, because corners are difficult to predict and anything can happen.
2. The BMI almost own goal, I blame Janmaat for allowing the winger huge amount of space to make the cross and of course I blame BMI and Krul for poor communication.
3. willems misjudgement, totally his fault!! under no amount of pressure, simple situation transformed into a horrible situation.
4. Another header that hit to upper part of the bar, not going to blame anybody. dead ball situations are almost impossible to predict.
5. Altintop’s shoot, don’t know maybe there was too much space there, but its hard to say
6. Another clear header, Van Rijn should know that when a cross comes in and you don’t go for it then you invite the opponent to score. Poor judgement
There six clear chances, consisting of 3 headers (2 dead ball situations and 1 pure cross) and 1 shoot on goal from outside the box.
But these are 50/50 chances meaning that they are part of the game, its stupid to think a game without chances.
On the other hand there were 2 fatal errors, 90% goal situation. Hell, for me the willems mistake would have been a goal if it were Messi, Ronaldo even Torres.
So my point is, if we are able to eliminate the 90% goal situations that are based on our own individual errors we would be better off. How about the 50/50 chances? well it would be naive or even stupid for a manager not to expect chances from the opponent. Even Barcelona are expecting some sort of attack from their opponents.
Smart, Gio. On rewatching this first half, I agree completely. The meltdowns were stunning… but the great work all around it is impressive. We were pretty dominant, to have so many kids out there. 😉
I like that lineup Tiju… I’m a huge can Thijn fan.
Hey guys sorry for this reminder…
I have set up a fantasy champions league for us… here are the details
league name – ChampionsBleedOranje
league code – 588180-421062
I also think krul was an improvement over steks but he needs to improve in deadball situations and better communicate with his defenders. This defense is young and the more they play together the better they will be. Also the less nervous they would be and would not make those mistakes.
Bad news guys , Krul injured and replaced with the young goalkeeper of Waalwijk Jeroen Zoet .
good chance for Stek to prove himself anyway ..
Notes on watching first half again:
* Clasie passed back to his defenders time and again, recoiling from an aggressive double team in the midfield at first; later, by default. Clasie’s attempt at a long pass to Robben led to a strong Turkish counter and shot on goal. Clasie seemed gun shy, and even got mugged once diddling back and forth with his defenders instead of attacking. But he was always on the spot, and disrupted Turkish play time and again.
* First score didn’t come from defensive buildup really, but followed after Sneijder brought the ball up himself from our half.
* Persie was doing great service in the box for Robben and Sneijder. He does things I’m not sure Huntelaar can do, distributing well in the box and with his head.
* Robben is brilliant, and worked harder and more creatively than in recent memory in this match, but dives like an muppet.
* Janmaat is a talented positional defender — but his mistakes were complete shut-downs of judgment. Willems, too, also takes risks pressing up but has better fitness and speed than Janmaat. Pressing up as we are… well, it’s a good thing Johnny H. was back on top of things. And how can you not like Martins Indi? All the defenders are covering more ground in this 4-3-3.
* Strootman has real gifts for vision and counterattacking — a quick touch and full positional sense to turn direction. Plus, he’s a stubborn goat like Kuyt, gaining energy during the match.
Strootman always earns his Heineken 🙂
2 players injured in the training camp !!
Van gaal tortures them lol 😀
Krul replacement Jeroen Zoet? Anyone know about him?
I think he is the Gk of the U-21 Oranje .
Good points. I agree about Clasie, he seemed to be always in the right spot but played too defensively, passing the ball back instead of distributing the ball forward. I think he was instructed to play safe or he was just too nervous. I hope he will improve in the next games.
I like Strootman and his fighting spirit. I think the whole team can be inspired by him. And that pass to Narsingh… beautiful, work of art.
Who is the other player injured? And why is steks not second string goalie?
the other player is fer
I don’t think Zoet will play, they just need another active keeper on the team for practice.
You can’t expect Sneijder to be similar to Xavi/Pirlo. He will never be. Clasie can be, just give him some time to get experiences and develop into that role. Perhaps Strootman or Fer too.
We all know Van Persie can hold the ball, pass the ball and distribute better than Hunter. It is just he does not score as many as Hunter for Oranje, and I think Hunter has a better goal scoring instinct.
Perhaps players should communicate more. Many times a player received the ball, he passed right back to defender instead of square to the player on his left and his right. The build up is slow. The player should move and position better, like a triangle so you have the option. I like the idea of forming small triangle so you can pass the ball and move up better.
I rank sneijder in the very same level with xavi .
Fer reminds me a lot with patrick Viera .
Strootman can be another pirlo . what a player !
clasie and Maher are still in making .. also de guzman is an interesting talent , i hope we will see him with Oranje in the next games .
Fer had meniscus surgery on his knee.
Too bad for leroy……
Where is jefrry Bruma????i think he would do great with heitinga.Tall,speedy,tough bruma would be a fear factor for many strikers thats for sure….
By the by
Who will be the back up players for Leroy and strootman as holding mid???Since clasie is small in size,we need to find another two….ie
All four players are box to box,hardworking,skilled players who can play footballl as a holding mid….
Bruma played last friday with u21 against Austria beside Nuytink.
I was thinking that with a lot of problems coming from the defensive end, maybe LVG should have brought van Bronkhorst into the managerial side, I really feel Gio could teach Janmaat, Willems, van Rhijn and Martins Indi a thing or two about being a fullback in a 4-3-3.
He tried to, but Gio declined.
Van Rhijn has been working with hard man Jaap Stam. 🙂
I know I’ve been away for a while when people from here start checking up on me via facebook 😀 haha
I’m fine.. just had me some vacation, and trying to charm the ladies. Another important aspect of life, besides football.
Anyways, on the past match. I was actually positively impressed by how quickly Martins Indi looks equally assured as Mathijsen. xD Even more reliable in some cases, if not for the slip up miscommunication with Krul – which he saved quite nicely btw- I thought he played a very steady game. Other than that, Fer added a new aspect to the game, much better than Clasie. Krul was good, and the big guns saved our asses haha. Still think Willems needs alot of experience to be close to deserving his place in this team. Still think Douglas could / should replace Heitinga, and RB is a worry, Janmaat, V.Rhijn and V.d.Wiel all have their shaky moments. But the highlights : Fer, Krul, Martins Indi !!
😉 Welcome back bro
I hope these players gain confidence but not being over confident vs Hungary. We were lucky as well vs Turkey. Does Stek start vs Hungary? Is there any injury? Is the same squad expected (except Krul is replaced by U21 goalie)?
i think stek will start
with LVG? don’t be sure about anything 🙂
BTW I am very worried too:
1. The 2-0 against Turkey will give false confidence and we will start the mistakes/don’t cares/give up.
2. LVG will shuffle the 11 in another unpredictable way
We need consistent effort in every game to gain back the confidence. One lucky 2-0 is not enough and it can quickly backfire.
Yes, Demi…it could be also that LVG will use 2. to address 1. — he’ll swap out enough starters to make everyone a little concerned for their job.
We’ll see how it works out. So different from the steady predictability of BVM. We’re rebuilding now… Who knows if VDV will even play again on the NT?
a win after consecutive defeat will rarely generate overconfidence… but you got the point.
If he’s going to reshuffle his deck again, I think it’s only on few positions. this is qualification game, remember that. I don’t care if it’s friendly, but against Hungary is an important game.
I love surprise, of course. 🙂 but double surprise? I’m still 21 and don’t want to get heart attack. please LvG… just a little change would be okay…
Very happy that we got the win.
My brief views of the game are below:
1. I like that Krul started. I would not have changed stek, but Krul has been doing really well with Nw Castle and deserves a chance.
2. I would have played BMI on left back, Willems is way below international level at the moment. He is very talented, but simply doesn’t defend well. BMI is a real defender and his passing and building up skills would be quite useful at left back. Vlaar or Viergiver should have played as the other Centre back. I hope that Willems is promptly replaced for the Hungary game.
3. I said it before that I was really hoping that Janmaat gets the start over Van Rhijn and I was happy that he got it. He played poorly, but I think it was simply down to nerves. I have watched it for a long time with Heerenveen and Feyenoord and I am fully convinced that he is definitely at a higher level than V Rhijn now. However, VDW should be reinstated as our #1) for the next set of games.
4. I also said that I hoped that Clasie starts and I was very happy that he did. He will do much better as the games pass by, because he is very talented. He was nervous and playing in a new team, so he will be much more stable going forward. Also, I do not agree with those persons who think that he should be the dm. He plays as a dm for Feyenoord and that is the position in which he excelled. As a matter os fact, that is the BEST position for van gaal to use him in. This is because in this 433 system, we need a hm who can actually pass very well and create. Clasie does that very well, much better than Nigel. We didn’t see it on Friday, but that was simply down to nerves and playing in a new team. Fer is brilliant but should be allowed to play in the Strootman roll, not the Dm. Strootman should be the one to complete with Calsie for the hm. De Guzman/Fer/Maher should compete for the bos-to box position beside the hm.
5. Ifalley should be able to bring more to the team than Narsingh at the moment. However, I believe that Narsingh is very talented and will be a great asset for us in the very near future.
6. Finally, vdw, Franco, De Guzman, N de jong, vdv, Afellay and Elia (if he continues to do well for Werder)should all be called up for the next game. I respect that van gaal wants to make changes, however, I think he is making to many changes to personnel at once. This is a WC, not a friendly, to try so many inexperienced players is simply “too risky” and we all see what could have happened against the Turks if they had any killer instincts.
Just a correction. I mean to say that claise should be the hm. My argument in the 4th point that I made supported that view. I made a typing error earlier.
I am more relaxed after this win. Today I had the chance to rewatch the game and I could observe very clinical tactics and movements of Oranje and Turkey. I will start commenting about the visitors.
Well, they have a very talented team. This game was the perfect chance for them to humble Oranje at home since there was a new coach, new system, many new and young players and the confidence after the bad Euro Oranje had was very low. But it wasn´t meant to be.
They missed great opportunities but being honest the closest they could get was because of 3 Dutch defensive errors. Martins Indi had his blunder, so Willems and Janmaat losing the ball like little boys. But Arda Turan was very hungry and knew that the Dutch defence was very young and put some pressure there and got the best of the Dutch young players. Emre, Bulut, Altintop and the attitude that Turkey showed from the very beginning was very agressive. They also had many mistakes in their defence like when Strootman recovered a ball that was almost lost for us, a bad back pass that reached Van Persie boots and their full backs where troubled a lot specially in the second half by Robben and Narsingh. I think the Turks will finish second in the group but expect them to lose easy points because as well as Oranje, they sometimes lose concentration at the back very easily. Holland could score more goals. I like Turkey but although this was a good chance to beat Holland due to the circunstances, they could not and when the return game is played in Turkey (last game) I bet this new Oranje will be much stronger.
Many changes. But I liked them. The defence was faster but those Willems and Martins Indi mistakes could have cost us two stupid goals. Van Gaal noticed this too but it was because of nerves. Now with the win, these guys will grow in confidence. Janmaat wasn´t that bad but he lost the ball too vs Turan…but V. Rhijn was stronger than him.
In midfield I think many of us are still guessing what Van Gaal did. He played Clasie as the controller-passer (DM) and Sneijder and Strootman in front of him. The surprise here was that Strootman played in the right and Sneijder in the left to be closer to combine with Robben which he did very nicely in the second half. And when Clasie left it wasn´t because he was playing bad but because he was playing very short passes mostly to the back four and Van Gaal later said he wanted him covering that space but playing more to the half of the Turks, which he couldn´t do, perhaps the nerves of making his debut in such an important match. And when Fer entered the field he didn´t play in Clasie´s role. He went to the right midfield and Strootman took Clasie´s place as the controller-passer. THAT WAS A HUGE TACTICAL WIN FOR VAN GAAL. When he did that move Turkey couldn´t penetrate since Strootman has more pace than Clasie and knows how to defend and attack faster. Fer in the right gave another dimension to the field and Sneijder grew and the combinations he had with Robben were becoming crazy all the Turkish defence. Hamit Altintop will never want to see this game again. He was owned by Robben who by the way, returned to his best and natural position and it is clear Van Gaal knows how to get the best out of him. Narsingh is a player that sacrifices a lot for the team and that is why he started instead of Lens who doesn´t track back often enough. And although Narsingh at the moment is being benched at PSV, he offers many good things, opens the field a lot and is a threat to any defender. He can cross, he didn´t take the best choices in the game but was always available and in the second half he did a lot of danger but the final pass was lacking but in the goal he scored he showed he can keep it calmed and be a big game player. Van Persie played excellent. He could have scored at least one more and was opening a lot of holes in the Turkish defence…something KJH doesn´t do because he is a more static player.
Anyway, the tactical change of deploying Strootman as the controller (number 6) paid it dividends and for me Van Gaal will use him again in that position vs. Hungary. Sorry to see Krul got injured. I think LVG will use this eleven vs Hungary.
2- Van Rhijn
4- Martins Indi
8- Maher (would have love to see FER here)
9- Van Persie
Greetings to all.
I suggest you guys read this article. You can read here a very good analysis of Van Gaal´s previous time as Bondscoach. Clearly things weren´t easy for him at that time and now seems the wind is in his favour. Now we have started the qualifying process with a win against our strongest rivals and back then with a tie vs. the third placed team in the group in terms of FIFA´s rankings.
I always believed that in 2000-2001 Van Gaal had bad luck and here you can find why!
Well said Demi. A loss to Hungary will put this team backward by 2 steps after moving forward with 1 step defeating Turkey. The team needs to stay focused. It is a long way to win qualification.
I think the starting 11 will be what Mario said except Fer in place of Maher. If VDW doing well at PSG, I’d like to see him recalled to fight for the RB. We need a good CB to replace Mathijsen, and slowly introducing a few more youngsters if they are exceptional. Too much change is not a good thing. We need a balance.
Unfortunately, Fer just had meniscus surgery. It will be a while.
If LVG keeps 9 out of the last 11, that would be a miracle by his standards … As per Maher, I would prefer Classie instead. He deserves more chances…
Most importantly not too much ego from LVG. If he thinks that he is a genius and god after this win, we are in trouble.
I’d say let Martins Indi take the seat as youngster for now. We will get Pieters back in a bit, they can form a steady duo on the left LB – LCB. Buttner, Viergever, Willems can compete for stand in roles. Right side its gonna be VDW vs Janmaat vs V.Rhijn. And I hope Douglas Franco, or perhaps still Heitinga or something. I mean, in the coming two years.
Fer picked up an injury btw. So he wont be playing.
Interesting stat pack on RVP
No other striker in the league can come even close to matching RvP’s performances and production last season. 30 league goals, 27 from open play, 9 first goals and 11 winning goals are insane. His chance conversion rate of 19.9% from open play is phenomenal. 27 goals/136 chances = 19.9%. Only Aguero comes anywhere close, 18/110 = 16.3% chance conversion rate from open play. Rooney is NOT even close at 14/110 = 12.7% conversion rate from open play.
Van Persie played 38 matches and 3334 minutes and was 26/117 in the box and 1/19 out of the box for a total of 27/136 from open play. He created a chance every 25 minutes and got a goal every 123 minutes. Rooney played 34 matches and 2839 minutes and was 11/43 in the box and 3/67 out of the box for a total of 14/110 from open play. A chance created every 26 minutes but a goal only every 203 minutes. vP created an astounding 117 chances in the box, 1 every 28 minutes, while Rooney had only a modest number of 43 chances in the box, 1 every 66 minutes.
RvP’s production goes much further than just scoring goals. He had 9 assists and 83 key passes, a key pass every 40 minutes, which itself is insane. To put this in perspective, Gareth Bale had 10 assists and 74 key passes in 3217 minutes, for a key pass 43 minutes. Rooney had only 4 assists and 47 key passes in 2839 minutes, for a key pass every 60 minutes.
It’s NO wonder that Fergie paid the £24 mil for a 4 year contract and a salary of £200K a week along with a £10 mil contingent loyalty bonus and also performance bonuses. United’s cost could reach £80 mil pounds over 4 years.
amazing stat analysis here mystro. would you kindly convert this data into seconds now?
One qualitative data you have to consider was that Arsenal played for Van Persie, arsenal=van persie. I think Alan Shearer once had astonishing numbers too, just because Newcastle had only one attacking strategy, Alan Shearer
Does anyone else think that robert schilder could be an option for the left back position in the next couple of months?
He is has been doing quite well at Twente this season. Also, he is very experienced in the Eredivisie. Also he is a former Ajax youth product, therefore, he is of some level of quality. I think he could be a backup option for the left back position soon.
Excellent excellent post up there ^^^^. You are spot on about BvM & the changes that LvG has made. I was tired of Oranje under BvM. LvG may be taking risks but at least the side is interesting again.
Clasie & Strootman are our gems for the future. Clasie can play DMF if we need but his talent lies in the center of the midfield. Sneijder can only work his magic if he’s in the #10 position behind a striker. Clasie should stay and continue to develop his game with Feyenoord. Theres a reason he’s called “Dutch Xavi” and with the captaincy he will get a sense of responsibility and get better and better.
I agree that LvG should tell Sneijder & VdV that he will play only one of them and whichever fits better starts. Under BvM’s formation Sneijder was better. For our new system VdV is better. You need balance in a midfield for it to flow. To give an example: Barcelona play better when its Xavi-Busquets-Iniesta. If you replace Xavi with Fabregas then there’s 2 players (Iniesta/Fabregas) who want to do the same thing and there’s no balance. I personally don’t know where Sneijder fits in this system.
Clasie – Fer – VdV
Clasie – Strootman – VdV
VdV – Fer – Strootman
a bit late comment on the Turkey game.
1) We got lucky. A lot of time. Krul really gave the fans a mini heart attack. 🙂
2) I think had the referee realize that there were 2 balls on the pitch, Narsingh goal would be canceled. Apart from that, his response to the pass was superb.
3) Martins Indi need to improve his concentration. And Willems. AND Krul really need to rebuild his command of area. Actually the only man on defense that didn’t trapped on miscommunication situation is Heitinga.
4) Don’t be too harsh on Clasie. Turkey midfielders are very physical, Clasie’s still young, this is his first, and he started! That’s a lot of pressure. That kind of condition is sure intimidating. Although under pressure, he didn’t fade away from the game.
5) Narsingh and Robben need to improve their decision making. The big moment that I saw was when Narsingh-Robben against a single Turkish defender. Narsingh was too busy choosing which one of the trick that he want to use. 🙂 Robben screamed for the ball. Too late, backup defenders already fall back…
6) Fer was great. Would be nice if he played from the start.
7) Overall, great game! Hats off to LvG for the surprise package. 🙂 This is why an experiment need to be done.
a bit word for Hungary game:
1) Krul & Fer replaced by Zoet & Maher. Not much that I want to change from previous starting lineup.
2) My XI: Stekelenburg; Van Rhijn, Vlaar, Martins Indi, Willems; Strootman, Heitinga, Clasie; Narsingh, Huntelaar, Robben
3) What? Heitinga in midfield? Vlaar on defense? Huntelaar over Van Persie? Really, nothing specific. I think that lineup will do fine against Hungary. I just want to shuffle things a bit. Strange to see the captain dropped, eh? But it’s MY own lineup. 😀
4) But THIS is what LvG most possibly would deploy: Stekelenburg; Van Rhijn, Heitinga, Martins Indi, Willems; Strootman, Sneijder, Maher; Narsingh, Huntelaar, Robben. Why? Start from the back: (a) Vorm is great during first 3 Swansea games. But never had assuring performance with Oranje. (b) Defenders were doing pretty fine. Except Janmaat. Let’s bring him on 2nd half. (c) Clasie deserves to start again, but IN Sneijder’s position. But he was nervous when starting his first game. 2nd half sub, and we’ll see. Maher for his position. (d) Even some people said that Huntelaar won’t fit on 4-3-3, he IS a goal machine. And Van Gaal said that Huntelaar is #1 of no.9. Why not? Van Persie already be given his chance, it’s even for him and Huntelaar, right?
5) The Netherlands 3-0 Hungary. No big scoreline. I think our players will still be goal-shy. 😀
@ Van Fadly.
I would not change Krul and I would definitely not change Heitinga either. I would move BMI over to left back and include Vlaar in the starting lineup. Also, I would give Janmaat another chance. I is a really good defender and was simply nervous on Friday. Willems should be left at home. He is a very poor defender. I love the bloke and I think that he will be a great defender in the future, however, I think he is certainly not ready at the moment.
I wouldn’t mind to see Clasie get another chance, however, I would also love to see Maher getting a chance in the starting lineup. Strootman could play the dm and maher play a more box to box role.
NOTE to Van Gaal:
PLEASE do not leave De guzman and Franco out of the next squad for the October games.
Franco is now fully eligible and De guzman has been in a good form for Swansea. We don’t need these guys to get frustrated and change their minds about playing for the orange!!
Another note to van gaal:
Please keep an eye on Marco Van Ginkel. I have been watching him from last season and he is a quality youngster with a lot of potential.
I bought him in my fifa12 manager mode.
To be frank, I miss Pieters badly. Compare to Willems, Pieters is more reliable in defense. Do hope Pieters will be in form this winter after recovery.
Telegraaf’s “graafic” shows Clasie’s passes, just to belabor the obvious (that he didn’t attack):
Does anyone know how long pieters will be out for?
Cant believe ppl are criticizng Narsingh after a quite 45 mintues and 1 failure @ a pass to robben who prolly wud have messed up the big chance…what about his 3/3 delightful chip goals, his assists (even against belgium), his pace, his wonderful crossing which will be back on show once he shines for PSV, and for ppl who think he is a crap dribbler..U R BLIND, he is a way better dribbler than shit alternatives like Babel, Lens, Emanuelson, Ebecellio etc….