These were my thoughts when I saw the line up before the game.
A big NO NO for me. We were in a similar situation in 2006 and 2008 with the seniors, progressing after two games and in both cases I expressed my convictions on this…
This post will NOT be about the game. It will not be about how great Spain is, or how they dive, or how they score or how we missed two huge sitters… It will not even be about Norway or Italy.
I don’t CARE about Norway and Italy at the moment. Those are for this weekend.
This post is about psychology. My view on matters. I am not claiming I know all this for a fact, ok? It is simply my conviction.
Resting players who are fit is not needed. 21 year olds playing 3 x 90 minutes in 8 days is NOT a big deal. Physically. That is, if the training intensity and nutritions is managed well. With 23 support staff, lets assume it is.
A team in the zone, in the flow, is not a team to rest. Why would you take the pressure of these guys, only to have them finding their mojo again? Not smart.
Then, acknowledging and re-enforcing the fact that there is a B-Team is not smart. Putting Fer, Clasie, Hoessen and co in the “B-side” is basically telling them: you will only get a chance as a sub.
It is creating a division in the squad. Subconsciously, players like Van Ginkel, Strootman, Wijnaldum will walk around differently and deal with Clasie, Nuytinck and Fer differently. It’s how it works in a dressing room with testosterone filled young lads. Survival of the fittest and all that jazz.
And… Somewhere in the build up to this game, someone (most likely Cor Pot) will have said “….and don’t forget, we do not have to win this game….”….
Subconsciously, the players who play will make the connection between “I play” and “it’s ok to lose”. In other words: if we needed a win, the other lads were picked.
Not handy, Cor Pot.
And so there are three potential results per player: either they play below par, as the coach took the pressure of this performance. Even only 5% less “oomph” will be felt and is noticeable. Or….they give 120% to prove the coach wrong and the result is a player trying to do too much. Or going in too wildly. Yellow cards are normally the result.
The third results is obviously, the player plays its normal game. But, in a team that never played together and lacks automatisms, what is “normal play”?
How will Pot ever determine if Depay did well, or whether Fer should make a step up?
This game only brings mayhem.
Because if they would have won this 3-0, they would have asked questions of Pot. If Hoessen scored a brace and gave the assist, he would have clearly made his point. If Clasie would have been Man of the Match, Van Hanegem would have roused up more media support.
Why would you want all this?
But now they lost 3-0 and it feels like “yeah, but hey…it was only the B-team”… The international soccer / football media will report this. Holland lost, but….hehehehe, it was “only” their second rate team. Shit Cor Pot!
And this loss will further emphasize in the heads of Van Aanholt, Depay, Jozefzoon, etc that this tournament is basically over for them.
And it will further divide the squad. The losers vs the winners.
Oh, and did I mention the yellows? Hoessen, Fer and probably some I missed… Nice.
I think it was a blunder. I hope I am wrong.
I hope we will see the A-team beat Italy in the semis and Norway in the finals. I hope Cor Pot will write me a post saying “you don’t get it, idiot!”. I do hope so.
But I feel this move has not helped us. You need to want to win every game. You need to program yourself that not one game gets thrown. This is how you create winners.
This is the first game in a long time where I was happy to switch the tv off while a team in Oranje was playing.
A more positive post tomorrow folks. I’m pissed off. Got out of bed early for this one and feel screwed by the coach.
Jan, only 2 yellows so you did not miss. Perhaps it is a good reason that Cor Pot should not be considered for the senior squad’s coach. Let’s hope the squad did not lose any rhythm for the semi-final.
You are not the only one who feels Cor Pot is an idiot.
Jan please could you go to the KNVB and work as an advisor for the coach? 😉
I simply can’t understand it! when I played football and a coach did what Pot did tonight the B team felt really bad and the A team would feel superior to them which caused fights.
Cor Pot took a huge gamble – so far it’s not working well.
If they don’t win it all now – the questions will bounce back to the Coach. With “rested” players maybe they will do well – and for the sake of Cor Pot they better. Or his reputation will be the big looser.
I agree with all you’ve written Jan – but for the moment lets just say Cor Pot is closer to the dressing room, and maybe this was necessary. (Lets wait and see)
For sure though – if the score were reversed – we’d all be calling him a genius…
From goal.com: Robben will play for Bayern next year according to Bayern sporting direction Mathias Sammer and Ajax concede defeat in signing Van Ginkel who is likely to transfer to Chelsea.
2006 we did not beat Argentine so 2nd place = Portugal in 2nd round and hence a famous battle was remembered.
2008 we rested players and still beat Romania but we were upset by Russia as Marco was outcoached by Hiddink.
In 2006 the team is not peaking yet. I thought the team is ready to win it all after beautiful performances against France and Italy.
We know which 11 Cor Pot will start vs Italy. Let’s see how he prepare them to win (physically and mentally). I agree with you that I prefer Italy’s approach in their last game, play to win the group rather then resting players.
I keep on stressing that we were not outcoached by Hiddink in 2008. How? We played like we always do and so did they.
2008 we lost because players were mourning the loss of the baby of a friend and colleague and had spent days in hospital only days before the game.
Sorry Jan, I do not buy this regarding 2008. Boulahrouz’s tragedy had very little to do with that weak game against Russia. I don’t believe players (especially Holland’s) are so close to each other that they spend days at hospital and mourn etc. Simply outcoached, Russia played great aganist Holland and we were unprepared to deal with them.
The first reaction of vdV after the loss in front of camera was that there are more important things in life than winning. The Euro 2008 was build around kids in some way. Most players where in that family building phase. After all group games the players took their little kid on the arm and walked towards the Oranje supporters to celebrate with each other. The death of the unborn child of Boula was a direct hit in the energy source that propelled the Dutch NT to run havoc in the group. It killed momentum, moral and focus in a devastating way.
It’s not the only reason we lost, but certainly played a big factor IMO.
I am with DRB300. RVP in particular is close to Boulah ( Robin’s wife is of Morrocan descent). They spent a full night there and practice was canceled. I don’t think you know how close knit that group was.
Explain to me how Hiddink “outcoached” us??
I remember two massive chances for Heitinga and De Jong and Ruud on Van der Vaart crosses. The Russian goal was a late one and our equaliser was late too. They had a red carded canceled for some silly reason and were allowed to play extra time with eleven.
The tank was empty at our end in those extra minutes (ask yourself why).
Jan, I know my limits and I won’t go into an argument with you regarding “out coaching” as I am sure it is a lost cause for me. What I remember from that game is Russians playing circles around our defense and penetrating at will, it almost felt that they would score at any moment. Every time they had the ball it felt like danger was imminent. On our side we were sluggish and seemed out of ideas. For someone outside the dressing room seems like either players didn’t care or their coach couldn’t motivate them and couldn’t come up with adjustments during the game to encounter Russians tactics.
Agree: Holland didn’t lose that Russia match because it was mourning; the Dutch midfield was terrible and got overrun and we played a horrible game.
The result was nothing to do with tragedy. It was to do with over confidence, complacency and not having anything remotely resembling a plan B – the very same things that destroy every Dutch team.
Leaving Cor Pot’s stupid decision aside we did manage to hit the post twice even with our “B” team and actually Mexican commentators were amazed by how our “B” team managed to put some pressure on Spanish “A” team!.
I agree with your concerns….
Having said that, I’m not the coach, and time will tell if we are right or him…
Thanks for your great work btw..
I believe it will be unfair to judge the players based on tonight’s performance. Actually when Spain took Isco out they lost a lot of depth so imagine what’d have happened if they had played with their bench!.
I agree with Jan. No matter what, this was not a good move. Thumbs down from me.
I liked your Analysis a lot , Jan .
Cor pot should have just changed three players in the line-up ” that was what he said actually ” .
Hoesen , fer and depay for instance , Use John on the right side , in the second half use other 3 subs ” clasie , de vilenha and van aanholt ” ..
Honestly I can’t see jong Oranje beating Italy , hopefully the young lads will prove me wrong .
All hail our tactical brain and great leader:
I feel annoyed actually . I think we’ll need a miracle to go far in the WC .
It’s not a B Team that played today .
Clasie , fer , and de vilhena are all Big Oranje players and will probably go to Brazil .
agree w Jan, bad move!
There is a truth we are all trying to avoid, because we don’t want to believe it and because it hurts, but I am going to say it and I know a lot of people won’t like it! The new generations being produced by erdivisie are no longer at the same level like the golden generations such as the 90’s. first of all please let’s stop saying these players are still young and they will learn! When someone like strootman is 23 he is not young anymore. Same applies to leroy fer and most of the others like ola John and BMi and the rest! Just look at Eden hazard or varane or Goetze or many others those are very young in Varane’s case he is 19 and he is already a starter at Real Madrid and plays at the highest levels same applies to hazard or Goetze (just few examples)! Now going back to the older generations we all remember that ajax 1995 that played the best soccer I’ve ever seen! They won the champions league one year and got to the final in 1996 and they had players who were babies at that time!! Davids overmars reizeger kluivert those guys were all less than 22 and they ruled the world in 1995 in the group stage they beat milan home and away the year after in 1996 they beat Real Madrid home and away 2-0 in Santiago beranbeau!! The point I want to make is that honestly we’ve already seen the level of this new generation not that in three years or 5 years they will be much better! It is true they will get more experience and they will be better but there is a certain limit to most of them! De vrij or BMI won’t become stam or f.de boer, they might become Heatinga or vlaar, Aston villa or everton level! Same applies to strootman or fer or Wijnaldum! The only 3 who might have a potential are maher John and maybe clasie? That ajax 1995 already started as a European champion with bunch of kids at that time because they were the real deal, quality immediately showed in two champions league finals humiliating bayern 5-2 in the semifinal in 1995!!!! Those now seem to be very different days unfortunately! In the 90’s u had 20 Dutch players at least playing in top teams and being the stars of their team, stam de boer brothers bergkamp overmars zenden reizeger kluivert makaay hasselbaink and many many others! Ur attack was composed of kluivert (barca) makaay(deportivo then bayern) hasselbaink (chelsea) van hoidonk and bergkamp (arsenal) u had six strikers that any national team in the world would’ve paid millions to have only one of them!! The erdivisie was producing those talents to the top teams in Europe! Unfortunately these days the products of erdivisie go to mid table teams in Europe and in a lot of cases they don’t even become starters in those mid table teams!! Now why did the erdivisie drop this much? U are going to say money, that’s true only partially ! Because I am going to ask u about the portoguese league, guys Portugal is even a smaller country than the netherlands look at their results in champions league and Europa league their teams always make it to the final 8 or at least 16 in champions league and they play the final of Europa league every few years! Did u see benfica this year? They played at the same level of chelsea in the final and lost only in the last minute how many times their teams recently qualified to the elimination rounds in champions league? Do u know that if benfica this year won against chelsea they would’ve surpassed italy in the European coefficients and would’ve became the fourth league after the big three in Europe! 15 years ago we wouldn’t even compare to them we were way ahead of them! Look at them now and they are a small league that doesn’t have money just like erdivisie but they seem to have a respectful level still in Europe and their teams seem to be competing at the highest level not like our teams who lose to any team in Europe now and please don’t mention the ajax man city as an example of success because that was a one time thing there is no continuity! I am mad and frustrated after today’s game and I hope I am wrong but it looks like we are in a bad cycle that will last for few years no real talents are being produced (look at afellay who was elected best payer of erdivisie few years ago, where is he? He didn’t belong in barcelona). These days we have only two world class players persie and robben! Since when? We always had at least twenty!!!! This reminds me of Germany in late 90’s till early 200’s they went thru a very bad phase they had only ballack as a world class player when he played in chelsea, most of their players were a joke, at that same time we had a flow of talents that we didn’t even use because we had a looooooot! But life is a cycle look at them now and look at us! Big difference now they have world class players and we have a bunch of average players! I might seem harsh and I know some people will rip me off but as a diehard fan who has been following this team very closely since 1988 I have to say this is the truth, erdivisie has dropped to a non acceptable level and with this erdivisie level the orange will suffer a lot because u can’t count on chelsea preparing ur nathan ake or city preparing ur rekik u need ur ajax and ur psv and ur feyenoord!
Sad but true , Alaa . Can’t agree more .
However , a fact that should also be considered , many big football nations have also declined .
Look at Brazil , Argentina , Italy and France .
Their current generationis are far less than the previous ones .
I appreciate your concern but the fact is everything follows a cycle. We have the talents and we can gel them together to form a very solid team capable of competing at the highest level.
Look at Brazil..do you see the next Ronaldos, Rivaldos, Cafus and Ronaldinhos coming up through their youth ranks??? Certainly not!!! But they’ve got talented youngsters who can play as a team and win the WC.
I remember the France NT during the 1998 WC and besides the Netherlands and Brazil, they easily possessed the strongest squad in the tournament. Lizarazu, Blanc, Thuram, Desailly, Petit, Henry, ZIDANE, Djorkaeff, Deschamps..
Look at them now! They’ve got a few world beaters but still a solid ‘team’ capable of playing good football…and yes, there’s a huge difference between the 90’s and the present since we don’t have Ajax or Feyenoord players playing together on a daily basis,(or shall I say weekly?) so you can’t just compare the two situations.
As long as we have a solid footballing foundation at the grassroot level (which we do), talents will keep on emerging. The primary challenge would be to nurture these talents,gel them together for the NT and instill that much coveted winnig mentality in their minds.
I agree totally.
This are hard words Alaa but for our bad luck this are true.
Hope that something will change.
Hup Hup Holland!
Good grief, man: Learn to start new paragraphs if you wish to write a very long post. Try the “return” key!
@ Alaa. I feel the same exact way! You said everything I have been thinking and feeling for quite sometime. My old friends ask me: who’s your team in the CL? I say Ajax and they laugh at me in return. They are “new” soccer fans and don’t remember the great Ajax of the late 90’s, which became the great Barca of the early 2000’s! Not only Ajax sucks, but also they are not composed of mainly Dutch players anymore! What a sad ending.
Man, stop saying Ajax sucks, we are playing in the Champions League every year. We beat the likes of Milan, Man City, Man Utd in the last years. We could have beaten Dortmund away. We are not title contenders but we are very unlucky with the draws. I think there are a few teams stronger than us:
Still, we play better football than some of these teams, and we are more or less on par with Benfica, Porto, Zenith St. Petersburg, Valencia, Napoli, Milan, Tottenham.
If Germany has sooo much talent like youve pointed out , then what does that make our win against them in the group stages:-)??
People that say Netherlands played with 11 subs, should also consider Spain played with 7 as well. Also, they send in top players for the WC U20 that will start in a week from now. Deulofeu, Jese Rodriguez, Óliver Torres, Denis Suárez and others will play in that tournament. They also send in the first team to the Confed Cup with a squad packed with talent.
They are fighting on multiple fronts and have a chance to be supreme in all of them.
Just imagine if they send in all their top players to this tournament.
We did send in our strongest squad and even allowed all senior Dutch NT players young enough to participate, to this U21 tournament. We only fight on 1 front.
So there are no excuses. Spain was better. We should wake up and answer to Spain’s rise. They have changed the demands to shine in world football and asking us how we respond to that.
It’s not about excuses. Spain deserved it. And might have won easily against our A-team too. I am not talking about the result, but the aftermath. The impact of this move. The psychological effect of this stupid decision. Knowing that the effect would be like this….
Oh I know Jan. My post was not even aimed at your post. I read on some forums already the excuse that we played with our B team and that this game has no value because of it. That struck a wrong cord with me as Spain is fighting on so many more fronts right now. We only focus on 1 here. We need these games to use as a wake up call and get curious to how Spain is able to produce so many absolute supreme technical players. We need to change our ways to respond. This is not going away. One could even argue that Isco is maybe a young but better version of Iniesta. They are not fading. They don’t go away. They have a new generation with loads and loads of talents in all age category’s. Even Belgium (a smaller country) has more outlier talent than the Netherlands.
If we zoom in on the group process side of things of this tournament, then it is pretty damaging for harmony feeling and unity. One part of the group will now feel as failures and the others will maybe want to distance themselves from such a performance. The group process took a hard hit with this move. Against more rest time there is loss of rhythm. Only thing I can say is that there is almost more staff than players in Israel and they use all kinds of monitoring equipment to know the state of the players. They made a decision and we could conclude it was not without a cost. I just hope to see a fit A team against Italy at the very least.
Exactly. This whole article is rather pointless.
The exact same criticisms could be levelled at the Spanish coach who made 7 substitutions.
Spain were simply better.
They have better players.
They work as a team.
THEY CLOSE DOWN SPACE AND WIN THE BALL BACK!
We were rubbish and we got our asses spanked.
It makes a mockery of our preparations for the next game, but also a mockery of the way some of these young players have been over hyped recently, particularly by some of the fair-weather fantard pondlife mouth-breathers that frequent this once great site.
Could we have an article, please, from an established source?
Perhaps some post match interviews with the coach/players etc… I have no interest in any of your opinions, and I’m not sorry if that displeases you. I simply do not care. I WOULD like to hear from the people that matter, those in the know, those with experience, the established football media, and those with the power to make actual decisions affecting our matches – the powers in charge.
It would be nice to have some actual intelligence displayed at these times.
If you ask nicely.
And what does “once great blog” mean???
Read the different articles on the AD site and this is exactly what I mean:
the media are attacking Pot.First they say “he lied to us” and then they ask the players “so now Italy…”
And Strootman and co are saying “Yes we need to win against Italy otherwise the whole nation will say we lost our rhythm due to this decision.”
EXACTLY!!! THIS IS WHY POT SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THAT RISK!!!
And Van Ginkel “I didn’t like it. I always want to play when I can.”
And Nuytinck is devastated for missing the opportunity to show himself.
There you go.
All crap they now have to deal with thanks to Mr Pot.
Jan, years ago when looking for day care for my little daughter I always wondered why they asked if she was “poty” trained. Mistery solved 🙂
What annoys me the most is that his motivation was “to let those B players have a go too, because they trained so hard….”
Geez and he said he was not holidaying in Israel? Well apparently he is there to keep everyone happy…
Cor Pot, Netherlands coach
If we look at the game in phases, the first part was really good but after that Spain were much, much better and speaking honestly I liked Spain a lot. In the second half we were a little bit better, the game was more even and we had four chances. I still think the decision to change the whole team was the right one. We chose to give the first team a rest because otherwise we would have had one day less than Italy or Norway. Unfortunately, it was 3-0 – a big defeat. A 1-0 or 2-0 would have been better but we’re not too down.
Our doctor and physio said you need three days to recover fully from playing and that’s why I changed all 11 players, to make sure we’re ready for the semi-final. We knew what we were doing. I was very happy to see how those players played against a top team.
Football-wise I think Spain deserved to win, I don’t have doubts about that. But chances-wise we had four very, very good chances, which could have changed the match. Every time we had a chance they scored one minute after it. We had a chance at 1-0, then they scored for 2-0. In the second half at 2-0 we had a couple of chances, then they made it 3-0.
[On how the Dutch team has changed since losing 3-0 to Italy last year] I think about eight or nine players. Italy are a strong team and it’ll be an interesting game but we’ll see – I’m not afraid of Italy.
Well it looks like I’m the odd man out but I actually thought this was a clever move. I understand your concerns about creating division in the squad, creating an A team and a B team, but I saw this move as being only about Spain and the psychology involved with meeting them again in the final.
I think there was no upside to this game. Meeting Norway in the semis isn’t exactly a free pass, and I think the match up with either Norway or Italy will be a great challenge. Both games are winnable but both will be close. That being the case, this game vs Spain becomes little more than a friendly in its significance. Yes, I know that it’s not good to accept a loss in a tournament like this, but the team was solid enough (and the chances close enough) that a win or draw were possible.
On the other hand, playing the ‘A’team against Spain might have had two different outcomes… One is a win for Oranje, in which case Spain is familiar with the team, the players, and the tactics heading into a final/rematch. The other scenario, a loss by our starters against the Spanish reinforces the narrative that Spain plays superior football, reinforces the storylines that stem from WC2010 and EC2012,and it leads to a general belief, on both sides, that Spain ‘has our number’. I feel like that’s a far worse psychological blow to that team as a whole than what Jan’s described in this post.
I’m not signing on with Cor Pot as a coach, especially since there seems to be a lack of cohesion and consistency on the field with this team and too much reliance on individual effort, but in currently of the belief that this was a great move. If the lose to Italy and don’t ever get the chance to play Spain then the whole move is for naught, but hopefully that’s not the way this plays out. It will certainly be fun to watch. And, of course, to read all of the ‘I told you so’s’ if they flame out.
I like your views. And I was not concerned about Italy or Norway. That is not an issue for me. If you want the title, you gotta be able to beat them both.
I am merely worried about the effect a loss would have on the players (ah, that is right, they are only the B team) while if they would have won with great football, Pot would have to deal with people talking these guys into the main team.
I believe it was asking for friction.
I think its master stroke if the second 11 players take it in a positive way.i hope and wish they will.They all got a chance to show what they are capable of.Pot has given them exposure from this exposure we must learn and should stick together and should face italy with more vengiance..
Football is 11 man game and vilhena,clasie and fer cannot do it alone.
MVH-Was too nervous and needs experience and will get better.blocked one sure goal of spain especially when the player ran past him.
Nuytick-No comments i never supported him.
Leerdam should not be there,no comment i never supported him.
Jozefoon should not be there.no comments i never supported him.
Hossen-Is way to lesser intelligent than Luuk,though he has better skills,over all Luuk is more contributer than hoesen.
Vilhena and clasie are too light weight to handle holding mid postion.
Clasie should consider playmaker job over holding job..
In every sense front trio combination hoesen-Foon and Depay were impotent except to Depay freekicks.Depay is kind of Afellay with better freekick.Often gives ball away that was too bad but Afelaly doesnt do that.
Vilhena-He requires time,too young
Van annholt-Was there with athletism and pace did well comparing to other defensive collegues.
Leory fer-He must move to holding mid,has muscle and keep opponet at bay.
It has shown the quality of the bench of the dutch,so there is no reason for crying.there is lack of footballing intelligence/Quality for the players like Jozefoon,Hoesen,leerdam,Annholt etc..As a fan i am not down and my mind is saying POt has choosen a differnet path,my intusion is we have more cahnce of beating italy now.
Note-If u want to win a cup ,u must be able to beat anyone wheter its italy or spain or norway,doesnt matter..
if we reach final we would VERY EASILY BEAT SPAIN.mark my words……
I read that Van Hanegem agrees with me :-). Willem always follows my opinion.
“What Cor Pot did was without respect. Condescending even. The sport is hurt by this. All these fans buying a ticket to see Oranje in Israel play the title holder Spain! The tv stations who paid money to air this game. How can you expect the eleven B players to withstand this Spain? The disdain for the sport and the tournament…it is ridiculous.
You need to want to win every game. Sure, rest a couple of lads. But this i do not understand. I am very disappointed. Italy by the way, is not that great an opponent. But the question is, what the effect of yesterday’s game will be for the players.
Mentally, you are weaker now. Half your players are disappointed, or lacking confidence or angry. They have failed. They didn’t show any spirit. The central defenders, Nuytinck and Van der Hoorn…. Did someone ever explain to them how to build up? Has anyone told that you need to quickly find the deepest player on the park so the midfield can move up and you can pressure the opponent. Spain must have felt playing a practice game!
There was no cross pass, nothing. Our midfield was constantly under pressure and walking back because our build up was too slow.
I can’t imagine that Louis van Gaal is happy with these choices. And Pot can say he doesn’t care, but I don’t believe him. Pot has always been a bit of a dependent coach, who followed the opinion of the more dominant coach he worked with….
I am looking forward to Saturday….”
Things could be worse. At least we’re not the fansite of the English team.
All the players who started against Spain MUST BE thankful to corpot and rested players should be thankful him for giving rest.despite the score game was close at least in terms of scoring.4 super shot on goals,thats not bad.only the problem was orange attack was not potent like they did with Ginkel,Maher,OLa an wijnaldum .i am sure these guys would ahve torn spain defense in to pieces with their speed,intelligence and efficiancy..Jozefoon is not a match wijnaldum,Hoesen is way lower than Luuk,Depay is more of dribbler while ola is team player and more speedy too.Ginkel is 2 or 3 steps ahead of fer though fer did well.MVH,Bram,leerdam and PVA playing their first game and they were nervous come on guys.it was good experince for that 11 players that will eventually help us in final…cheers up and stand behind Corpot…..this is not the right time to call pot’s head…So far evrything is good except some holes in defense…..
I agree it showed that some of the players are far from ready to mix it with the top players, however, unless you give them a shot , more than a late sub, you will never know if they can handle it. Yes Jan you make some fair points but now is the time to be positive. I think it was better for the B players to get a game than just spend 2 weeks watching and wondering if they could do better than some of the A players.
Most players would be carrying niggles by now so a game off can rejuvenate those players and freshen the legs for the tough games ahead, there will be no excuse for any player in the next match, particularly Strootman, who has been sluggish at best so far.
Lets get behind these youngsters an floor forward to a top class performance against Italy.
I’m hoping anyway!
Totally agree Jan… Especially annoyed about Pot calling it an A & B team it can not be good they are one team, you would think Pot would be a little smarter about it. You should be very ashamed Mr Pot
Did Pot actually call this the B team, and say we had A and B teams? If so, that is indeed very STUPID. Jan is absolutely right about this. Players can see things, know that they are not starting–but you never do anything that might break a team into camps or drive a wedge. Cohesion is paramount.
Maybe old Cor has smoked a little too much Pot!!
Sorry had too do it
I dont think his decision is totally wrong, he made two important decisions, resting as much as key players, avoid injury in less important game, let say injury to john/ blind/ ginkel will be big blow to sf game, and at the same time, learn the weakness of potential opponent, spain in final, from that game, we can learn more about spain main team weakness than they can. Afterall, winning final is more important and should be the ultimate goal, winning every single game and statistic should be put aside. Eventhough i have to admit dissapointment as i didnt expect a big loss. I dont think team b was sent to the game to lose. Therminology of team b wasnt created during that game, but 12 players have acknowledge the facts, they are not starter in the first two games, and wouldnt make any psychological effect to them.
In 1998, orange won against france with full squad in final group game, however french who finnaly become champion.
In 2006 and 2008, we rested some the key players, didnt make any different to the defeats in the later stage.
@Jake jan was telling about possibility of seperation of the unit,we win it as unit..So unity is under jeopardy..thats the situation..apart from that Pot did a good move,we must win when it really counts.i think u21 tournament would have given LVG more idea than anyone.if wesly is regaining his fitness then we would see
Deguzman—–Nijel dejong or viceversa
13 players +7 defenders+3gks
Drenthe is on his way to Reading FC. The team will play in the football league championship ” not in the English premier league ” .
Sad story .. He was the best talent in Europe one day .
But, he could have gone to some horrific country but he is returning to the home of football :-). If he does well at Reading for half a season, he’ll be playing for Fulham or Swansea or Cardiff or Newcastle. Mark my words.
I wonder why part of the blame is not put on the players. Supposedly players should be ready to play all the time without conditions or excuses.
The manager made a technical decision, one that failed terribly. But 1 decision alone doesn’t cause a team to fail systematically. A manager can’t pass a ball nor can he score goals or defend from one.
Look at the big picture, Spain is the new Brazil (in all categories). They are just too good and all other teams are following Spain’s so called leadership.
Holland needs to focus on team building,especially with the world cup just around the corner. Personally,even the senior side is not close to what we all expect. Loads of talents but also a respectable doubt(s) surronding it. Only persie and robben have demonstrated to have the rythm expected in competiti e leagues or tournament. In closing, I think that team vis a vis player development is mpre important than comparing ourselfs to Spain. We are not there yet.
It wasn’t a great decision by Cor Pot but I think this team has what it takes to kick Italy’s ass and Spanish’s ass as well 😉
When you are playing with the best your performance improves so therefore it is unfair to criticize or judge our players who played last night.
If the Women NT team is called Orange Lionesses, then the Men NT team is Orange Lions and U-21 is the Orange Cubs? (http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/footballdevelopment/women/news/newsid=2107856/index.html?intcmp=fifacom_hp_module_news)
And what is the Dutch media saying about Cor Pot? and how is his relationship with LVG? is LVG involved in this tournament in some way or he is just watching it from the distance?
Pot is very condescending re: l lvg. I will comment later.
I read that Pot gave the players a day off at the beach. Do they really need more rest?.
We need to make winners and I think that’s not the way to prepare a semifinal.
I think this is a case of Cor Pot and Dutch arrogance. He was going to be the coach who beat Spain with our B team. Its kind of smart in the sense that they are expected to lose but if they won than Spain would be effed for the rest of the tourney. The gamble almost worked if our B team wasn’t cross eyed and didn’t pass with lead feet.
They are the B team for a reason, some bright spots but thats basically it. As for mentality, they play professional sports if they can’t bounce back from 1 loss than they don’t belong there in the first place so this whole mentality argument is bollocks.
I seem to remember some previously successful dutch euro sides that did pretty good with some bad results. As far as I’m concerned its game on. Cor Pot is almost a genius which also puts him dangerously close to a half wit at the same time.
Well said !!
Can someone tell me whether Netherlands-Italy is the first or second on Saturday?
second game at 9:30 Israel time or 8:30 CET.
@Jeff, Many thanks for the game time info. Much appreciated.
Thank you Jeff .
Apparently Lens is moving to Dynamo Kyiv. What a bad choice if it happens, they don’t even play the champions league coming year
Really sad. I’m not against average dutch players going to Russia and Ukraine, but going to the world cup with one of our best players playing in Kyiv ? seems like we would be Croatia or Serbia, not a top team.
Hopefully it’s just a rumor . A silly one of course !
It’s not. PSV and Dynamo agreed on a transfert for 9mo. Now Lens is gonna talk with them to see if the contract is good.
Jan has once again said what needs to be said regarding this match with Spain. It was awful to watch for Dutch supporters. The eleven athletes who went on the field should be ashamed of themselves. They had no enthusiasm, no hustle, no intensity, no teamwork and disappointing skill. In spite of these comments, they could have won this match if they had made three relatively easy goals. Yes, the Spanish played one of the world’s great goalkeepers, but the Dutch once again choked when they had open, easy shots to score. They reminded me of Robben in the WC 10 final, another match the Dutch should have won, but the athletes could not perform when the pressure was on. To “choke” means to fail to execute a skill when under pressure and when absolutely the best is required. The Dutch are technically well trained and skilled, but they constantly “choke” when match outcome matters. Never mind the dopey manager–who is Pot anyway?–these young athletes do have skill and talent, but they do not play as a team and, in my opinion, they did not give a damn about this match. They were already set for a semi-final match, so why put forth effort. Very, very disappointing.
As to this coach–is Cor short for Corneluis?–I have not been impressed at all about his abilities and attitudes. I do not like his lineup choices, his tactics, his substitutes and his decision to tank the match against Spain. I have no confidence that he can pull this group back together and defeat Italy, but like Jan, I hope I am wrong.
Why do I love the Dutch and their football history? From a small country has come exquisite skill taught by terrific teachers and coaches; gifted athletes who brought intensity, effort, and professionalism to football matches; coaches who taught entertaining, free-flowing and effective football tactics; players who played by the rules and respected the sport; and joy-filled fans who always enjoyed themselves at matches, willing to sit among the fans of other countries and still have a great time. The Netherlands football of Cruijff, Neeskins, Kohl, Rensenbrink, van Basten, Bergkamp, Davids, Stam, van de Sar , Rinus Michels, Gus Hiddink, and so many more wonderful players and coaches. It is that tradition that makes the debacle of yesterday so very disappointing, and makes possible the hope that some of those traditional values and skill may be present Saturday against Italy. The Dutch should win that match,as they are the better team. Whether or not they do will depend on what is in the head and the hearts of the team coaches and players–which is always the unanswerable question until the match is over. Hup Holland!
I concure entirely with ur comment bob. I think the talent is there, but you have to back it up with performance and not “coking” when the action is required. That is why I would incourage “jong orange” to gain it overseas, european and big league stages.
If the opportunity does not come, I think it is important that to the very least players most have dicipline. Football has shown that minor teams can win tournaments with decent players however you need discipline and attitude. I think the current national teams is in a construttive periode, all it needs is the final punch or transformation from talented players to establhished players. That cannot be taught in the training grounds. One gains it from “real time” playing in the big ones. Hopefully van persie and robben have learnt that and can lead this team. One final note, I think sneijder is wrong to think that he still deserve the armnband. The majority of dutch senior teams are young and they need someone to look up at and follow. Currently they are Persie and Robben. But I wouldn’t give leadership to robben…
Bob, totally!! Cor Pot was a perpetual assistant coach who, until late in his career believed the lime light was not for him. Until one Dick Advocaat (!!) took the Rotterdam born coach with him to St Petersburg as assistant coach.
Willem van Hanegem would say: because Dick needs a card partner. Not because Cor Pot is a tactical wizard.
So here, Cor suddenly became a millionaire. And the KNVB loves Dick and therefore Cor. And gave him this job.
As a player, he played for Sparta, MVV, Haarlem, Excelsior and Vlaardingen.
As a coach, he worked at RBC, NAC, Excelsior, Al Masry, Dynamo Dresden and the KNVB before he made the step up to Zenit St P.
Leandro Bacuna from Groningen moved to Aston Villa. He could be in Israel with the under21 currently, he played many times with.
He can play as right back, right winger and midfielder, maybe can become dutch material if he does it good there.
He can be a very good Rt back , but average winger . Kinda similar to Emanuelson .
Lens to Ukraine? is this a fucking joke?
must be. he cant be that dumb. im sure some mid level EPL team would take him
I am a little divided as my recommendation was leave the back 4 + goalkeeper for more match practise and change the front 6. Both centre backs had afew niggles.
Those of you who have played in 30 degree plus heat (much hotter in the sun) know that it totally drains you. Italy played most of their top players and they will tire in the second half. Lets see if this was a master stroke or not.
When Maher came on I noticed immediately a better build up and more chances, Spain also tired towards the end in the heat.
I have seen stranger things in Football.
just little note,
it may be strootman was the only difference to the team played vs spain, I know nuitinck was the captain, but I couldnt see him or anyone take the leadership on that game, no one shout or instruct basically lack of communication.
This is the time to celebrate and support for the team against Italy,dutch should play with double power against Germany….Some mediocre players got a full match against wonderful spain in a wonderful tournament,they should consider it like that anything less would be ungrateful.
players like Maher,John,Ginkel and wijnaldum are so mercurious and they can take on 2/3 players WITH GOOD WORK RATE,and u will see super game if our defense is tight we are GOIN TO WIN…….My worry is devrij/stroot and Indi..i mean the centerblock of defense.We have the most potent attack and second goes to italy and third goes to spain,But in defense both are superior to us..
I hope you are wrong. But your post almost convinced me that Pot have made a big blunder. The only positive fact that I came up with is The Les Bleus in EC2000. Head coach Roger Lemerre used the B-team for the last game, vs Nederland, at group stage. France lost 2:3 but they all the way to the final and win that tournament!
Jores Okore the prodigious Centre Back also signs along with Bacuna for Aston Villa who has Ron Vlaar as captain there. Okore and Vlaar seem to be a mouthwater centre back prospect
Carlos, the weather is actually quite nice in Israel at the moment. Not too hot at all especially in the evening. So that is not a valid excuse. But strangely I don’t really have a strong opinion about whether Pot was correct about changing his team completely. I think there are arguments for or against. I remember all these discussions during the Van Basten era in 2006 and 2008. I agree with Jan about the notion of team bonding and by announcing that this was the B team, it creates a hierarchy within the team which is not good. So how is Fer or Hoesen going to feel if they are asked to go in? “Well we know we are B players so really we are not expected to do much?” on the other hand it could seriously motivate them. We will see soon enough. The jury is still out.
By the way, I saw the players and coaches today at their hotel in Tel Aviv. I spoke briefly with Cor Pot. He was reading some material about the italian team probably prepared by his scouting staff. They all seem quite relaxed. The game is supposed to be totally sold out tomorrow. I will be there and will report back as soon as I get back to my hotel.
Jeff great…feel jealous…
Makes it a bit closer to read this, Jeff. Thanks. Pix please!
same story again and again, now instead of becoming a star in ajax and leading the team with maher maybe in champions league and getting some good results for a dutch team, he moves to chelsea and definitely wont be a starter with all the players they have in midfield!! disgusting!!! http://sports.yahoo.com/news/overmars-concedes-defeat-van-ginkel-155700713–sow.html
Would be nice to see him play at Chelsea, with the operative word being ‘play’. It’s hard to imagine him getting a lot of playing time in that midfield, riding the bench or being loaned are both pretty bad options for him.
Maybe he’ll get some playing time- I certainly hope so. Maybe the Sneijder rumors are true and the ‘special one’ is planning on playing 10 midfielders.
Well actually I love the fact that he’ll be playing for maybe the best coach of the world. Mou will give him a winning mentality and from what I’ve seen Mourinho recognizes good talents like Van Ginkel so I expect him to do well at Chelsea 🙂
I agree with that, but it also seems like it’s the game day competition, not just the training, that’s required to season young players. I would love to see him excel their and linking up with Mata and Co. Could be great experience.
just to say Van Ginkel make chelsea choose make another drenthe for us. Oscar Mata and many player r one or two class above him, i really cannot see him playing for chelsea, did anyone see ramires Mata or hazard and oscar playing?? with justice i can say they r really better than Van Ginkel.
but i hope he choose Ajax or PSv, with one or two years Champion league Experience he can beat Oscar Mata and Ramires easily 😉
ut anyway wish best for him, maybe i’m wrong and he can be succefull at chelsea
When last time we see dutch eredivisie succed in top A club, or even B class? No one after generation of RVP-sneijder-Vaart-robben.
Im afraid this just another case of affelay, elia, anita, emmanuelson,etc
If van ginkel moves to chelsea he will not only become a starter, he will be a star there . Just mark my words .
However , I do hope he changes his mind and moves to Ajax .
True except matta he can repalce any one with betetr productivity…….stioll i prefer him to go to ajax
Guys please cut this A team B team rubbish, Whether they are called a B Team, second string, Reserve team whatever, do you think these guys even THINK they are the A team ? Answer is NO! They know exactly where they are in the pecking order and unless you have played sport at a very high level even club level, you get to know immediately if you made the grade or not. You will then try your damn hardest to get to the top level and UNTIL you reach that level, you yourself know you are a B,a Reserve or whatever. The rest is up to you !!
Great reply for all these chaos…
Perhaps here is one of the reasons not to risk starters in a game that doesn’t matter that much — Nuytinck has left the U21 team due to a knee injury.
It also looked to my like Isco was limping off the field when he was subbed in Wednesday’s game. I wonder if he’ll be sub-par against Norway as a result.