Well my friends, if Willem van Hanegem still sees options, I am not going to be too negative.
We did start well. We again created three good chances at the start and Afellay did have a number of crossing options (which he squandered) and I was pretty upbeat.
But, Bert van Marwijk said after the 2-1 loss, our defense kept on tracking back. Our midfielders and defenders didn’t dare to play one on one and push forward. “Cocu and I don’t have a voice left so much did we have to scream to get them forward. They were afraid. At a certain point it was as if we played with 2 offensive players and the rest all walked back.”
Germany scored first, which was a practice goal. Gomez looked like Messi. Schweinie with too much time on the ball, and Mathijsen lost Gomez completely.
The second goal was even worse. Again, no one picking up Gomez and again Schweinie with all the time. And this time, a weird fall by Stekelenburg!! Why did he go to ground? If he would have stayed on his feet, he would have simply caught the ball?!?!?
A string of mistakes and that deflated the energy from the team. Afellay became invisible. Mark van Bommel is spent. Robben couldn’t pass a corner flag and poor Van Persie received poor service. And when Robben finally got a cross in from the left (second half), the Arsenal man demonstrated what he can do.
Our late goal kept things alive a bit. But we were not able to get more out of this. Van Persie had a chance, Sneijder had a blocked opportunity and Raf tried a long distance strike… And that was it… No penalty calls this time and a bloody effective German side.
Willem van Hanegem: “Seriously, this was not even that bad. Sure, the lines were drifting and some players lack form, but with a tad of luck, we would have scored first and that would have made all the difference. We started tournaments bad before. And this time we didn’t even start bad. The Denmark game should have been won and this one was started well too.”
Robben: “We worked hard, we did what we could but it wasn’t enough. I don’t think we could have done better, unfortunately. But I still believe in a good result against Portugal. I have asked my German mates to win the Denmark game and we need to hope they keep their word.”
Van der Vaart: “This is shit! But if we win 3-0 against Portugal, we should go through. We should have scored in the first 20 minutes really. But Germany is a world class side. And we came up short.”
Robben: “It’s not fair to blame our defense or midfield. The whole team is lacking consistency. We are simply not as good as two years ago. Yet.”
Van Marwijk: “You always learn and I did learn something this game. I won’t go into the Portugal line up but I do believe Germany will not let Denmark win it. It doesn’t work like that.”
The AD reports their rates for the players and are devastating for Mathijsen, Willems and Van Bommel.
Wesley Sneijder apologised to the Dutch fans on television. “We started good but after 20 minutes we were suddenly chasing the game. We are not consistent enough, the patterns aren’t there. But we still have a chance and we should grab that last chance. But I do want to apologise to the Oranje legion. They are immense and deserve much better.”
Van Marwijk: “Against Germany, you need to be top. Our system wasn’t executed right. Our holding mids played to frightened. While our wingers couldn’t get a break. The communication and interplay between the lines was poor. I think Van Persie played really well actually but as a whole we were not good enough against this strong Germany.”
The buck stops with the manager:
Negative line ups.
Preferential treatment to inferior players.
Bizarre substitutions at ridiculous moments.
No encouragement to new talent.
No sense of unity.
1 huge fucking disgrace.
Cheers for 2010. Now GTFO.
could not be better said…..I would add selection mistakes that got us here. … forget about qualification… this.team is shameful for the dutch soccer
Rocky, +1. Well said.
+1 from me.
Still, even in spite of BvM I wish the team all the luck in trying to reach the quarter finals.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
not sure if anyone has thought of this before, but how about we play with just 1 holding midfield player ……..
apart from some horrible defensive work (players running through the middle completely untracked), i also think we did ok and if we’d scored first things would have been very different. i think we’ll beat Portugal and go through……………
BvM is killing the oranje buzz since 2006…
Yes, of course. 😉
The first 20+ minutes were great. But once Gomez scored it all fell apart. And then it got worse.
On replay, the set-up for both German goals looked so easy / obvious. Schweinsteiger, with all the time in the world, able to feed Gomez with a simple push pass.
Down on the scoreboard, Holland turned into a bunch of individuals. No more movement off the ball, no more pressing in defense, no more quick ball movement. Everyone just standing still waiting for someone else to create the chance.
Van Persie continues to struggle in finishing, which is not a good thing as a striker, but at least he’s getting chances. For all the cries for his inclusion, I didn’t really see anything from Huntelaar at all. Sneijder and VDV were the only ones working.
A very promising beginning but then complete collapse. I’m not a professional player myself so I can’t be too critical, but I just can’t comprehend the team’s lack of mental toughness and resiliency. The Dutch are known for their artistry and skill, but also their teamwork and movement. When down, this team however just completely lost its composure and stopped working together.
I have no words for the defense.
I don’t like how Robben said “I don’t think we could have done better”. Of course they could have!! We know this because immediately after the first goal by RvP, the Dutch looked extremely dangerous(for only 5 minutes), and where playing quick tap passing game.
How where they playing the whole game? Scared, slow, passing the ball between defenders and dm, did not press opposition, slow, without passion, did I mention SLOW?
All these little things add up, in the end the flop of the match was Willems.
Exactly! Those 5 minutes were so great!
Why on earth those guy cannot replicate those minutes troughout the entire game? God, it’s so frustrating…
Robben is just too selfish, he never pass the ball, and he even couldn’t keep the ball on his foot, and his attitude is rubbish, how come any coach would still use him? are they blind?
I just hope that in a somewhat miraculous way the fellas just pack BvM suitcases (mentally that is, no need to get physical…) and keep on going without him. Like, don’t listen, don’t tell, just shrug your shoulders and do what you do best. There’s still a chance we can go through and it sure does not depends on BvM. It’s totally on the fellas’s shoulders now.
I still believe.
If there’s still a chance of progressing, they should play to win and hope other results go their way. But if they are not motivated to play against Germany, I doubt they’ll be motivated against Portugal.
these lovable losers never fail to disappoint…..
Forget about getting through. Same thing will happen and we lose against Portugal. There is simply something wrong and I am beginning to doubt BvM as well. Tactically there is something wrong and also mentally. How can you play the
Forget about getting through. Same thing will happen and we lose against Portugal. There is simply something wrong and I am beginning to doubt BvM as well. Tactically there is something wrong and also mentally. How can you play the last 10 minutes in that way ? We should have pressed more, fought more, tried more. However the biggest disgrace was with Denmark. Again last 20 minutes we did nothing to solve the situation. Sorry but the coach has to be responsible for this. Bert’s time is over but I thank him for what he achieved 2 yrs ago.
BVM methods of “consistency in formation/tactics” and “we drilled team” are killing the team. 3 members of the defense and the two defensive midfleiders and goal keeper have been paired since 2008 when Bert took over. If he hasn’t got that defense “well drilled by now” then I’d like to know what the fuck they are doing in practice????!!!
End of the day this Dutch team was fortunate to have got to the world cup final in 2010. The opposition was poor and simply never really took the game to us except Brazil in the first 45 minutes and Uraguay (when it was too late).
Bert’s negative tactics have been chipping away at the psyche of the team for too long. An effcient team defends and attacks together not split into to team s in one which effectively how we line up in the 4-2-3-1 formation.
time for Bert to go (well he should have gone a long time ago)
time for new youngsters
time for van Bommel, Kuyt and few others to retire
time to experiement with different defenders (Heitinga is up to it)
time for Van der Wiel to leave Ajax (his deveploment has stopped for some reason and he is not the player he should be)
time to create a team around Hunterlaars goal scoring abilities (yes that means Robben playing on the left supplying crosses)
«De Jong and van Bommel were supposed to represent the ugly face of the modern Dutch game. They were supposed to be cynical, hard-tackling spoilers who protect the back four in a broken 4-2-3-1, winning balls so that the front four can convert on the other end. That was the pragmatic style that took the Dutch to the World Cup final two years ago. The canal belt intellectuals may not have liked it, and some even saw it as a betrayal of the Total Football tradition, but it was indisputably effective.
Not anymore. With Mesut Ozil dragging the pair back and forth and creating space, Bastian Schweinsteiger was able to find unfathomable amounts of space in what Ottmar Hitzfeld terms “the red zone”, that is, the central area 10-20 yards outside the 18-yard box. It is the space that defenses must protect above all else — Roy Hodgson has based a career on it — and yet Schweinsteiger merrily picnicked there in the first half, having time to measure his through-balls to Gomez.
Whatever other problems plague the Dutch — they may have moved away from the total-footballing 4-3-3 philosophy, but the traditional sulking, backbiting and infighting remain as popular as ever — this basic structural error undermines everything else.
This, my friends, is SO true. Sad, but true.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/jonathan_wilson/06/13/euro2012.germany.netherlands.three.thoughts/index.html#ixzz1xiKMfbUW»
Lack of passion tonight,van bommel looked every bit the old man he is. Players were timid, willems poor but what to expect from such a young player, emanuelson must be having a little laugh, but he will come good. Rafa again was wasteful, de jong does little to pressure now as he’s probably ben told to curb it robben is out of form and sneijder is trying to make up for four missing players. Portugal game, stek, weil, vlaar, heitinga, willems, strootman, schaars, narsingh, persie, sneijder, hunter knvb need to look at how the germans play the same formation but their two holding midfielders are true box to box players and link attack to defense where as ours sit and watch the game go by, same as the two centre halves really…
A Dutch Tragedy.
We’ll remember this for a long time, largely because the rest of the world will hark at us that we played like thugs in the WC2010 Final, and got served two years later. Just deserts.
We’re bleeding lots of orange, because we’re going to have to win redemption with lots more sweat and tears.
>Willem van Hanegem: “Seriously, this was not even that bad
seriously you need to see an optometrist. with all due respect, you don’t know what you are talking about.
The team played around 20 mins of world class football and then the players lost energy. They lost it before the germans scored.
A problem of this magnitude is a collective problem. It is not just the coach and a couple of players (although certain ones are worse than others).
The entire teams seems to lack physical and mental stamina. I am afraid the players are spent. This is not performance from world class athletes. What 18 yold Jetro? Sorry man, I am 4x and I can run longer. WTF.
This generation is over, with best showing the WC2010 final. It is over now, time to rebuild.
Some should not be called again. Wiel (bleah), Joris (thanks but you are finished), Bommel (like Joris), Robben (you lost 3 finals, go home end of story).
But it would unfair to blame the above and/or others. It was a team failure. Bad preparation, bad form, bad physical condition. And many bad choices from the coach, which I still support.
As per substitutions, what difference did they make? Exactly. Nothing. Whether X was out or Y, at 45′ or at 60′. BS…
The entire group sucked, now it is time to look at the problems and attempt to fix them. As per Willem and JC, they have lost their marbles.
This we didn’t do too bad? Steks saved 2 certain ones. Could have been 4-1 … or worse ..
I´ll try to be objective. Bert Van Marwijk and this players reached the WC 2010 final with a great attitude, team spirit, hunger and efficiency (scoring goals).
Now all those things are gone and the team simply didn´t deliver. Van Persie missing that first one was the tactical switch of the game…in these games and against this teams you can´t forgive, that is why some players like Bergkamp, Van Basten or Van Nistelrooy will always be remembered as Oranje´s heroes because they performed well not only in friendlies, qualifiers but in the tournaments with the national team. Van Persie and even Huntelaar have shown they lack that goal scoring touch when they wear the Oranje jersey.
Some of us are being to hard with players such as Robben but the truth is that is not Robben´s fault or a single player fault. It is just what we all know: this team has great talent up front but in defence we are like an amateur club. Changes are needed for the future, if we progress would be a miracle but I think Oranje doesn´t deserve it.
Said that, I think it is necessary to bring in a new coach such as Frank Rijkaard or Frank de Boer. And start building a team from the back…First build a solid defence that can be more reliable and with a strong defence the midfield and offence will be more stable. Now we depend on our “great” stars up front but every time we are attacked we concede advantages. That has to change. Don´t know what will happen in the next game, perhaps we will be lucky, perhaps not. At this point I am skeptical and not very optimistic but whatever happens after this Euro 2012, changes will be necessary.
And I think Bert Van Marwijk knows too…so that is why he will resign. I keep the good campaingin 2010 although we didn´t play the Dutch way in South Africa.
like SamDc I have watched every single Oranje game including friendlies and qualifiers…. and this is certainly not the way to bow out of a tournament…
but we are finished… sadly this is how we will go down… we were simply not better than our opponents.. as a matter of fact we needed to draw or beat denmark.
BVM needed to make a substation today and he didn’t… a truly painful and sad loss…
how much do we need ag portugal
minimum 3-0, and denmark MUST lose.
correction, we only need to win by 2
Bert Van Marwijk biggest mistake of all: He knew before WC 2010 he had a liability in defence but the team delivered because the players took the chances and the passion and spirit was there.
What did he do after WC2010 to reshape to defence??? Nothing. He sticked with the same players introducing Pieters for the retired Gio VB and our biggest weakness that we all know is central defence is exactly the same. So, I don´t care what happens next but Oranje has to rejuvenate central defence to be a real contunder…without luck we simply are a good team with excellent attacking players and back there with a bunch of mediocre players. And if our great attacking players miss we certainly are hopeless. That is what is happening now.
Just to finish…I´ll see the last game just because I love Oranje but I think we will be home, but in order to progress what combination of results are needed to be in the next round? Please tell me buddies.
@Mario – pretty simple. We need to beat Portugal by two goals and Germany has to defeat Denmark. Anything else and we go home. Germany has to play at least for a draw as they go home with wins by Denmark and Portugal so both games mean something
BvM boxed himself in by settling on the starting 11 two years ago. It started falling apart this year when Pieters got injured and couldn’t play left back and Mathijsen and van Bommel just got too old to play a full 90 minutes. I thought that going into the tournament that van Bommel would hurt the teams chances and he was in part responsible for two goals (the Denmark and 1st Gomez) by just standing and watching. What other options besides Willems did BvM have at left fullback (the next best Dutch left back in the Eredivisie is Daley Blind believe it or not and he’s not even a regular in the Ajax lineup)?
The team probably should have stayed in the Ukraine where the temperatures were much warmer than their training ground in Poland. They were out of gas in the later stages of both games (but the same has happened to other teams). Unfortunately, they don’t have the type of personnel to play the traditional pressing type of Dutch football (look how both Ajax, AZ and Feyenoord played this season in the league) and were always going to have trouble clawing back from a 2 goal deficit.
It’s too bad that this generation of players won’t bring home a major trophy but that’s football for you.
we are in trouble guys
future starting line-up for World cup qualifiers
Heitinga Douglaas (get it)
Van der wiel, Pieters
Van bommel, De jong
Robben, Sneijder, Affellay
CAn you do me and most importantly yourself a favour by ommiting a 35 year old from that lineup. How the hell will he play in Brazil when he is 37, in crutches?!
No def mids…we are going back to basic dutch footy. BVM will be fired, mark my words…
i’m putting him in there as a guess about what van marwijk would do, they released a statement that he will not be fired, So i’m saying thats what the line up will be,
I mean i personally would have a different lineup
CB:Heitinga, de vrij
RB: ricardo van rhijn or van der wiel
Def Mid: Nigel De jong with Strootman, Clasie, Anita fighting for it, if they move to different teams
Off MId: Robben, Sneijder, Elia with guys like Van der vaart, narsingh, Ola john, Boerreigter, and others fighting for spots
and two strikers up top, Robin van Persie, And huntelaar, with bas dost, and luuk de jong fighting for it
so my team would look like the 4-3-1-2
furthermore, van bommel stated, that if holland don’t win the euros, he will still play for holland, so i can’t imagine a old 37 year old playing, and we might even lose to turkey in the qualifiers with him
and for those of you who think we have a chance, don’t hold your breath… we do not deserve it… in 2008 we gave italy a lifeline only because we simply better than romania, not even because we tried to give romania a lifeline..
in 2004 when we were given a lifeline by the czech B team it wasn’t because the Czechs wanted to give us a a lifeline, it was because the Czechs were lucky.
this time the Germans won’t give us a lifeline… why would they? we would probably come back to bite them if they did.
So we are OUT… and all we have to look forward to is Sneijder and a fresh young team for Brazil….
Low won’t want to stall momentum with his team and risk ending second in the group (if Denmark wins against Germany, they might).
Knowing Low. he’ll say: why eliminate Holland? They are easy to beat for us!
Maybe Van Han&%*^ wasn’t watching the same match. I mean, I realize you have to support the team and wait to criticize till after its over. But common…no matter what happens, BVM has shown he no longer has the support of the players. they no longer win balls for him like they used to. It’s over. They need someone else to motivate them. you don’t change 22 players, you change the ONE coach.
You can lose a game by bad luck or the other team’s brilliance, but when you lose with an insipid style of play and amateur errors, there is really no point any more. A lot of mistakes today but MvB and Steks were the most culpable.
Winning ugly is tolerated because of results, but losing ugly is the worst of all possible worlds.
On the positive side, Bert made two worthwhile substitutions at halftime, which did give us more offensive firepower although we ran out of gas at the end, again. I am not sure why he brought in defensive Kuyt over offensive Narsingh – maybe a bow to experience but it didn’t work.
I expect the players will play for pride and even for slim hope against Portugal, and even if they bow out will still cheer them on and watch every minute (at least as much as I can stand…).
I also expect that Bert will seriously consider resigning simply because of too deep a rift in the camp right now, and too much external criticism. We need a new coach that will have full respect of all the players, and he will not have that after this tournament.
Why would they play for pride vs portugal and not vs germany?! These are the same players…no? If I was Bert I’d pick every player that hasn’t played yet and Sneijder
Maybe it’s wishful thinking, but with all expectations that Netherlands will crash out, the players may have no more pressure and simply try to show what they are capable of. They are still on a big stage.
I think a lot of the lethargy comes from long lines, causing our players to run up and down the field a lot.
I don’t think Germany really looked at that great. With the exception of our defensive errors, they weren’t spectacular on the attack.
Just think everyone we have this Bert Van Marwijk until Euro 2016….God Help us or should I say Cruyff Help Us.
Of course we will watch them against Portugal. We are pissed off big time but we will always bleed orange … to death. Like our friend Finnster. RIP again our friend.
Hollands defence is shockingly bad. Heitinga is a clueless muppet and Stekelenburg can’t save anything at the moment.
Tim Krul should start against Portugal.
Strootman for Van Bommel, Vlaar for Heitinga.
Why don’t the dutch press the ball? They stand off to much, allow teams to pick their passes all day
I can see why Huntelaar doesn’t start. A complete donkey on the ball, way out of his depth against big opposition.
Remind me of how many goals he scored against Dortmond, Bayern and Germany this season? Zlitch, zero, nada in a total of 6 games against all of those teams.
Van Persie has scored 3 goals in 2 against dortmond in the CL, 1 goal in 1 game against Germany
Unbelievable…. Van Persie is the biggest liability in this team. He simply cannot finish the chances he’s given. The other guys are simply trying and failing to make up for his incompetencies.
Huntelaar is the best striker Oranje has – no argument. Van Persie’s absence in big matches and his inability to clinically finish in an Oranje shirt is THE reason we lost the WK and the reason we’re going home early in the EK…..
I have been reading this blog since the beginning, but don’t post here often. When I do take the time to post, it is about something important.
I do remember posting here back during the world cup that we don’t need the two holding midfielders.
I posted a few times to drop van bommel and bring on raf.
This couldn’t be more true after today.
Play with vdv as the second holding midfield from the start.
This needs to happen against Portugal.
Start sneijder on the left, as he has shifted that way these last few games, and start van persie behind huntelaar. Robben on the right.
afellay, narsingh, and kuyt can come on as subs if needed.
I think we will get the positive result from Portugal, 4-0, and Germany will win.
Afterall, Germany will not have to face us again until the finals, and I think that they feel they match up against us well.
So I don’t think that they will be playing for the draw.
Many of us agree with this assessment.
I would make one change however: to me, Robben as brilliant has he can be at times simply does not do it anymore. He has forgotten basics of being a winger and therefore always cuts towards goal. If he would go to the line once in a while, he would find much more space opening up. And it affects our whole team.
This is why Hunter struggles in our system. He is not good as a transition player. He is good when we have wingers go to the line and put in crosses.
Therefore, I would bench Robben and put in Narsingh for the next game — along with your other adjustments like VdV on for MvB, Sneijder on the L and Van Persie as attacking midfielder.
You can feel how lively Oranje became when Vaart and Hunter came in. Do you think that BVM is going to change the lineup against Portugal? All signs of rationality and common sense will say yes, but I somehow doubt that he will.
Let’s cut to the chase.
Van der Wiel: horrible build up, sloppy defending, unreliable possession. We have no one better for this position, really?
Willems: great hope for the future, but at the age of 18 he’s clearly not experienced enough for this kind of tournament. What the hell were you thinking, BvM?
Heitinga/Mathjisen: I’m speechless.
Van Bommel: he doesn’t have the speed or the stamina to keep up or contribute anything to the game at this level. Is he on the team because he’s related to the head coach? Fuck that.
Robben: he is mentally broken. He cannot play anymore. The world cup final, german cup final and champion’s league final all broke him. He’s done. I feel sorry for him because he is (was) a great player.
Van Persie/Huntelaar: play them together from the start, or kick one off the team. Stop jerking them around like that, it’s only making things awkward for everyone. You know what? My choice would be to remove Persie. He’s cocky, doesn’t get along with everyone and chokes under pressure.
Van der Vaart: mental and physical fitness problems. He has no place in the Oranje team any more.
Afellay: a one trick pony. Can only take a wild shot from the sides or try to pass to Persie, nothing else. No confidence or team spirit. People say he’s young, but he isn’t (26 I think?), and he hasn’t really shown anything for Oranje. He needs to get his shit together or get our of the team.
Kuyt, Van Bommel, Van der Vaart shouldn’t be in the team anymore. I like and respect all of them, especially Kuyt as a human being, but they simply do not contribute anything to the team.
Why aren’t we seeing Schaars, Strootman, Narsingh, L. de Jong making an appearance?
If BvM doesn’t get the sack after this fiasco, then we have *no chance* in WC2014.
agree … all observations are spot on. But I am not sure we should sack the coach just yet.
Can der wiel – that happened when u don’t improve. He got so many changes to go playing overseas in stronger club. But lazy boy keeps staying where he is in his comfortable zone
I also feel that de jong had a monster game today. Was running all over the pitch and made incredible tackles the entire game.
Sneijder really battled with passion as well.
Willems looked lost, and gave away the ball on several occasions.
Robben is just too talented, with even 10 minutes left to play why did van marwijk sub him out?
Why not just replace vdweil or willems with kuyt instead?
With even just a few minutes remaining, I would take Robben over Kuyt any day.
That move really baffled me as well. Van Marwijk is really making some strange moves.
Why not sub on narsingh for the last 10 minutes. He provides great crossing, against a tired defense.
If I were coach, I would have played for the draw at least against germany in those dying minutes.
Some of you ARE still delusional thinking the Germans will be arrogant. Opposite has been true all tournament long. Germany give opponents respect. You had multiple Dutch players BEFORE the match saying basically Germany are shite. What does it make Holland to keep being beaten and being outplayed by shite? Going home very soon that’ what.
And why are you here if you are not on our side.
Alex, I think that he’s trying to point out the massive egos of Oranje players.
This is what needs to happen.
1. Van Marwijk needs to go.
2. Whole new defence except for Willems.
3. Ditch the 4-2-3-1 and return to 4-3-3.
4. Ditch Robben he is not a team player and too much ego…although I don’t know why?
5. For goodness sake be humble. All this ego based on what? 1 Euro88 title.
I was very depressed 2 yrs ago when we lost the final. Not so this time. I knew it was over after 1st german goal. You can feel the dilettantism of defense, the insecurity of midfield and the impotence in attack. No way in the world we could beat Germany with this defense. It could have easily been 4-1. The germans slowed down at will and controlled their energy, a well oiled machine. The only thing that really drives me nuts is why we couldn’t even get to german zone after we scored the goal. The team should have been rejuvenated and push forward. Same as in the game against Denmark players just quit and germans had probably 80% of ball possession.
Anyway, a qualification at the expense of Denmark would only prolong the status quo and validate BvM view of bad luck. We would be embarrased by Russia or whichever other team. And yes Denmark plays better than us, Portugal too. We can’t throw a decent cross unbelievably. As long as we can’t win the whole thing it is better to go out now and hopefully have BvM sacked. He is a complete idiot and short sighted manager and by not inviting new players has caused a lot of damage for the near future. To hell with him.
Well…I am amazed we still have a chance to go trough after such a bad start and poor games. We lacked the Germans mental will to win and we still have a chance. I will support Oranje till the end but I know inside me that they don´t deserve it.
This generation is not over. Afellay, Sneijder, Robben, Van Persie, Van der Wiel, Pieters, De Jong, Steks, Krul and many others will reach the World Cup. Others such as Mathijsen, Van Bommel, Van der Vaart and some others will be his last tournament. Van der Vaart is useless for Oranje.
I think that besides the players mentioned that can reach Brazil 2014 there are some bright young players in the Eredivisie that need their opportunity in the National Team. And if Oranje wan´t to win a tournament that central defence has to be changed as soon as possible! If not, it would be the same stoty over and over.
Anyway, the good news is that football is ONLY A SPORT!
one man could have changed everything and i was baffled when BVM didnt take him OLA JHON
Holland need to do more off the ball. Where is the pressing? where is the aggression.
If only Vermaelen was Dutch….
another thing, i’ve been tracking rumours on players, and it seems a lot of guys are in demand,
Douglas, Pieters, and Vurnon Anita are wanted by newcastle, which is a team on the up, and alan pardew knows how to pick great players
if anything at 6’4 pieters could be centerback
Manchester united want Kevin Strootman, and Ricky van Wolfswinkel
Inter Milan want Stijn Schaars
Tottenham might be trying to get michel Vorm, and Luuk de jong
Luuk De Jong has many suiters, liverpool, tottenham, so forth
Eljero Elia has permission to leave juventos, Liverpool, West Ham United want him
a guy i forgot Bram Nuytinck a defender, is on the move to west bromwich albion in the english premier league, and get this, Borussia Moengladbach wants him too!!!
On top of that Tottenham have also been linked with Tim Krul
it’s as simple as this, that means dutch youth are not only good, but wanted by high level teams in europa league and champions league type teams, and they want these dutch players, so there is no excuse that the defense is weak,
while we were busy worrying about mathijsen, heitinga, bouma, and saying douglas will come on the team, maybe gouweleeuw,
we’ve had some guys making moves, being ready to play for bigger teams and play awesome the future is bright orange
onzie, all the good prospects won’t matter if BvM is still in charge.
a guy can hope for a coaching change, gertjan verbeek, But i really want guus hiddink, and pep guardiola (really johan cruyff)
i mean, i have to believe the vote of confidence to bert van marwijk was just a lie to get him to not worry, they have to fire him right?
right…given that most austerity packages in the euro zone allow for no severance pay it is unlikely…but if enough media and player pressure is put through the right channels, maybe he will quit
onzie, KNVB is not the greatest known organisation and ha screwed up a lot in the past. I don’t believe they would fire BvM and BvM doesn’t seem the good character either otherwise he would honourably quit for this massive failure. I would love to see what Foppe de Haan can do or Frank de Boer, or Rijkaard again.
If BvM stays I will be a very bitter Holland fan. I will definitely support the team I have supported for over 30 years, but it will be painful. I never wanted BvM when he was chosen, but with 2010 success I thought he was genius. It hurts my eyes when I see him on TV.
i was more of rooting for gertjan verbeek, or guus hiddink, and pep guardiola
i truly believe that guus hiddink can get them to play dutch, have excellent fitness too
while gertjan verbeek has proven to be the smartest guy, and has AZ playing great
Yes dude. You are so right. I feel the same. I was very upset when we were eliminated from Brazil in 98 but we have our chances with Kluivert and Van Hojdong and with penalties taht was a llotary. In 2000 Rajkard was unlucky with ITALY and so on…but now I can only see thiss TEAM that can not react…even Greece was 2-0 down after 5 minutes with Cetch but they reacted and they scored and than they tried to make other goal.
Holland was for shame. We thier fans are for shame. they didnt run to take the ball to try to score… they have no blood they are only well paid ladies …sorry .
Hup Holland Hup next time. I feel sorry for you and for myslef because we have selected wrong team…
keep drinking the kool aid pal
how is that drinking kool aid, holland have lots of talented youngsters, ready to make a name for themselves, people always discredit players they never see, and then what happens when they make it big? they overrate them,
fact is, these guys are obviously talented, so this excuse that it’s over with this generation is not true, Holland has guys ready to take their place
the difference between Van Persie and Bergkamp is simple. The first scores when he likes and the second scores when it matters !
Subbing Kuyt for Robben….well this sums up Van Marwijk straight away….he has no idea and we are stuck with him until 2016….depressing.
That was a daft sub… Kuyt for VDW maybe, Narsingh for Robben as fresh legs but Kuyt doesn’t offer enough penetration – at least Arjen can ghost past a few players….may need to look up a little more but he’s still a valuable member.
I think they are all trying too hard to make up for a lacklustre centre forward (looking at you RvP!) and I wholeheartedly believe that KJH is the key. He’s a true goal poacher and far more clinical in the box than RvP…if we see the games where he has a chance to settle in from the start, he’s a machine….a goal scoring machine!
Actually, I was really excited when KHJ came in or was I mistaken that he played coz I didnt seem to feel his presence at all.
I WANT WINNERS
this should be the new coach of this douchebag candyass team. Players like robben, RVP, ect would shit in their panties, if they ever had to explain their play to this man (Mike singlegary)…for all you European bleeding hearts and sob sisters this is a one the the toughest playeres ever to play real ” football”
what did mike singletary win????
wasn’t he fired by the 49ers, and next year with harbaugh they almost go to the superbowl,
lame, different culture, and turkish coach hit his own players, don’t make a difference
Yes he was fired by the 49ers. just love his attitude. It just pisses me off the the Dutch keep accepting failure and making exuses and the prima donna jerk-off act like 14 year school girls.
I wish the Dutch players just had half the will to win as this man…or even the fans for that matter
The prima Donna antics isn’t an act….Dutch “arrogance” is born of the ..you’re free to speak your mind mentality….
This never augers well for teamwork. It appears that RvP’s inclusion may have been at the behest of keeping a unified team but if he’s not delivering the Oranje players are going to play the blame game.
Sneijder has played with real conviction over the last few years and will be gutted that all his creativity is going begging. RvP is simply a national team, big tournament choker and he simply CANNOT be the best striker Holland has!
if in fact you are correct, and the Prima Donna act isn’t an act, and is a true reflection of the team, then be prepared to accept “beautiful loser” stigma that will always be associated with Dutch football.
I am convinced the talent is always there but they need a major “heart” trnsplant as well as a big time ass kicking if the are ever to achieve success
wow such hatred for robin when in fact it was everyone in the team who are at fault. why dont you re-watch the game so you’d have a clearer view of what went wrong.
I realize that this has no effect on the team but since last night when we learned about Finn I’ve had the same feeling as I had in 2008 when we learned what happened to Boula’s little girl. Feel like SHIT!
Vaart should start replace Bommel,
Hunter should start replace Robin
We won easily on last EC, BvM should know that Bommel can`t play well. That`s why Marco didn`t call him
very important: 1994 italy loses the wc title and exit euro 96 in the 1st round. 2002 germany loses the wc title and exit euro 2004 in the 1st round. 2006 france lose the wc final and exit euro 2008 in the 1st round. It was coming oh my God !
I said this in the old blog before the Euro began and people on the old blog called me nasty names. I feel like saying “See, I told you do”, but I am too disgusted to even think about it.
1978 oranje lost the world cup and exits EK1980 in the first round…enters the dark ages for 8 years.
Hopefully we will not repeat the same mistakes..
I never expected that there will be a day when I will feel ashamed to be a Holland fan. I became a fan of Holland back in 1988 and have always associated them with beautiful, dynamic football, not this crap. Watching the pre-tournament games made me predict that Holland will finish last in the group and quite a few in the old blog called me names. I wish I was proved wrong. Anyway, as I said earlier today, given today’s pathetic display I will quit watching Holland play for at least the next 2 years. I do not believe they will be in the running for any championship for the next 10 years.
Thanks for your loyalty.
Thank you Niels, I feel like there are a whole lotta ppl bandwagon fans out there, whether good or bad you still support your team. I can understand disagreeing with formations and selections, but for F**KS sake I’m tired of ppl already writing us off. As a huge Chelsea fan, there are slight similarities, but not giving up.
What’s going to happen when we beat port by 2 goals and the Germans beat the Danes 2-1 or more; I want to say I’m going to love to see what these ppl have to say now, but I’m more concerned about winning then fake/weekend/tournament fans coming by once in awhile to jump into the hype and make comments. Even better if/when we win the tourny, what do you think they’ll say then?
Far from over and I see big things from Robben, Van Persie and Sneijder and I know once the in differences are put aside we can get back to what we’re made of. Besides with MVB out, we can utilize something decent here and now we can explore a bit diff options without having our attackers worrying to be defensive minded, when already they know what they want to do as individuals.
Whether we deserve it or not, depending on who shows up Sunday, we will go through.
and what happens if holland actually made it’s chances against denmark and won, and van persie makes one of his three chances before germany score, and holland wins both those games, would you still be saying i told you so?
holland is extremely talented, and with talent, means ability to compete at every tournament for championships,
1. Rensenbrink’s shot in the 1978 WC final (last minute) had not hit the post….
2. The referee had not given that stupid free-kick to Brazil in the 1994 WC quarter final…..
3. Kluivert had converted at least 1 of the dozen chances he missed in the 1998 WC semifinal
and most recently
4. Robben had chipped the ball over the fallen Casillas in the 2010 WC final into the goal.
The list goes on…….
What matters ultimately is the end result. Talent without execution is the same as the best recipe without salt.
Yes and if a frog could fly his ass wouldnt get wet
Vikram, get a life my friend. I am really not sure what you know about football but we certainly don’t need your insipid comments. I am getting fed up to read all these nasty comments. Know football before you post a comment.
Please educate me about “football” then. I admit I am a novice in understanding the game Holland is now playing. The football I have known since childhood taught me to “run into open spaces, create spaces, pass the ball to the team mate who is open and ge back into position to receive the ball back from him…..and most importantly DO NOT PLAY SCARED and ALWAYS PLAY WITH HEART”. I also learnt that any team that does not follow these basic principles usually loses.
I guess I need to re-learn the new way of playing football from this Holland team. Jeff, please educate me.
yes I maintain what I said earlier. I agree with your comments but we did a lot of that offensively yesterday. The problem was disorganization between the lines and a lack of cohesiveness. This can be fixed. No reason to be ashamed. We lost 2 games, it happens even if, like you, I am mad and disappointed. Our team can bounce back. As I stated before, I would almost rather that we get eliminated from this Euro and regroup for the WC. We have a key game against Turkey in September.
For what its worth, here is what BVM should do for the game against Portugal. Its a 4-5-1 but may give us the ability to score the goals we need.
I am depressed about the results but as in the last game with a little luck the result could have been much different.
Here are my ratings for this game:
Stekelenburg – 4.5 / 10 – made a few good stops but a some were pure luck, the second goal should not have been conceded.
van der Wiel – 3.5 / 10 – mediocre at best in defence and worse going forward, regressed since WC-2010
Heitinga – 4.5 / 10 – not his best but the best of a bad lot
Mathijsen – 3 / 10 – the end for a good soldier, spent more time putting his hand up than marking Gomes
Willems – 2.5 / 10 – looked like an 18 yo kid playing against the best in the world, he may be ready for Euro-2016
van Bommel – 3 / 10 – like Mathijsen, should never again be capped for Oranje
de Jong – 5 / 10 – at least made some tackles and showed he cared
Robben – 5 / 10 – not at his best but even so was dangerous at times
Afellay – 3.5 / 10 – tried to be like Robben when we needed him to be like Overmars
Sneijder – 5.5 / 10 – except for a few minutes after the 2’nd German goal tried his best to carry the team on his back
van Persie – 4.5 / 10 – the goal gave me hope he can play in Oranje, the misses prove he can’t be our lone CF
van der Vaart – 4 / 10 – did not quite give the spark I thought he would but did show he still belongs
Huntelaar – 5 / 10 – tried to make some things happen but came up short
Kuyt – n/a – could not make an impact in limited time
van Marwijk – 0 / 10 – changes had to be made and was too stubborn to do it, shame on you BVM (I used to be a HUGE supporter)
yes i remember you vikram. you were right but dont ever be ashamed to be dutch.. im proud of the oranje and your not a true fan for quitting go support brasil
What amazes me is that in a nation with the tallest people on earth, we cannot find 2-4 strong, fast, tough guys to control the middle of the box on defense. If it were up to me, that would be the first priority of the KNVB. Seriously, do Dutch kids not want to play D?
Ha Niels. Same feeling here. When I saw teams shake hands before the game started I was shocked at the height difference. Many germans would look down on them.
i agree with you Oranje Rules…I was a big supporter of Bert too when he took us to the WC final but now I realize luck played a big part…
2 points I want to make
1) I am really grateful and glad Jan made this amazing site. THANKS JAN! Despite the losses we experience together, at least we have a home to share our thoughts, express our frustration, and show our excitement and love of Dutch football during Oranje games. I love watching Oranje even if they lose because they are in my heart forever.
2) Sneijder. This guys deserved more. He deserved more from his team, from his fans, and from football. Sneijder is a winner. He is a world class football maestro and it will be very unfortunate if he does not lift a national trophy because he gave us every chance to win big games. He fed Robben the perfect pass to seal the deal in the World Cup and so far at this Euro he fought with all his heart. We should build out 2014 and 2016 around this man because he deserved it. He SHOULD and will probably be our next captain.
I second this. Sneijder showed such spirit. He cares and deserves more from the team.
Wow even when van Persie scores a great goal that has given us some life he is crucified on this blog.
I personally thought Huntelaar looked rather poor but what do I know. I just want to warn all of you, sometimes the grass isn’t greener on the other side. Huntelaar may not be the god everyone thinks he is.
He is a true striker…..The fact that Bert hasn’t given him a full game is the worst of this tragic tournament.
Huntelaar has better finishing skills and is much more deadly in the penalty box – the EPL is not the pinnacle of club football. The Bundesliga is much more robust and has more even competition than the EPL.
Huntelaar led us throughout qualifying and then is discarded to the bench! That’s nonsense!
So mathematically we still have a chance. If Netherlands defeat Portugal by 2 goals or more and Germany defeat Denmark then we are in? The question is if we are lucky to advance, what can we do with this opportunity? Perhaps I get too far ahead. These players do not play with confidence. They do not win 50/50 ball. Only with a miracle that this team can beat Portugal by 2.
I don’t understand Bert. He said our 2 defensive midfields play with fear. Why do they still start? Please start Van Der Vaart and Strootman as defensive midfield next game. We have nothing to lose now. Put Boula in for Van Der Wiel. Let Robben sitting on the bench. Start with Narsingh, Hunter, Van Persie and Sneijder. Put Vlaar in and ask him to mark Pepe for corner kick. Robben can come in after 60 or 70 min if needed.
Van Der Vaart-Strootman
Narsingh Sneijder Van Persie
I admit that I had faith in Bert before but he needs to take risks now. He failed to prepare the team fo the game. For the game vs Portugal, I would love to see the players put on the show, showing the fighting spirit, the desire to win (not the fear of losing). It is a bit early to let Frank De Boer to take Bert’s place, but it may not be a bad idea. I wonder if JC and Van Hanegem can come out of retirement and coach Oranje together. How about that?
At least now BVM will get the sack. I can’t stand stubborn beyond reason managers. Started with the same lineup and same tactics once again… same result once again.
Thanks Bert…time go to please KNVB
time to go*
for all of you who want BvM head, question:
It is generally accepted that we played awesomely the first 20 mins. We played like true world champions but then slowly we start losing it.
So, if the above is true, how can a team play 20 mins as they are supposed to and the disintegrate?
1. was there a different coach after the 20th minute?
2. did the players forget how to play?
One more thing for those who say “if A had been playing more”.
1. ok VdV played 45 mins. And the difference was ? 0.
Come one, I am not a BvM apologist but we don’t want to destroy this whole thing like we did after the disastrous EK1980.
Some players are physically spent. Period. They need to go. Joris/Mark/Kuyt. They were never great footballers, but they had grit and will. Now, they can play in top form for 20′.
Some others are mentally weak. Wiel/Robben. When the physically spent give up, the mentally weak follow. That’s how teams disintegrate.
You can not have a team playing awesomely for 20 mins against a great opponent and then fall apart like that.
The backbone Joris/Mark/Kuyt, needs to be replaced with a new one. Robben and Wiel need to go.
There was nothing better at the moment to put it. Many of you called Jetro a star but he is not ready yet. There is a difference between players who play for the big clubs and players who play in Benelux leagues.
Bert put in whatever was available, it is simply spent material. End of story. We all hoped they have strength for one more cup run but they didn’t. They tried, they can’t do it anymore.
Let’s keep the better ones and let’s start building again. No need to destroy the whole edifice, just a few floors 🙂
I am hoping cooler minds will prevail.
Good points. Don’t throw out the babies with the bath water. National teams are a moonlighting occupation, so you can’t rebuild as a club would. You’re just borrowing players.
I think this team suffers from a lack of open competition for positions. Not enough spots were up for grabs and some players felt too safe, therefore didn’t feel the need to be accountable to do the things that are expected of their position. Someone please remind Robben what wingers are supposed to do: stretch the field, create chances for others and occasionally for themselves (see Marc Overmars). Afellay was given a free pass despite not having played all year. I guess a couple nice plays against patsies Northern Ireland were convincing. Mark van Bommel is a beneficiary of nepotism. I could go on…we all know next to nothing has changed since WC 2010.
AMEN to that Demi. I totally agree with you. Bert is very intelligent and he will figure it out. For those who call for Narsingh, I wonder how many have actually seen him play. He is not ready for prime time!
put everything behind us…whats done been done…
lets fucking crush Portugal! this aint over yet! if Germany can beat Denmark, we may be able to sneak into 2nd spot.
HUP HOLLAND HUP!!!
I fault the coach most for his negative tactics, but a few bounces the other way, and we could have been sitting top of this group right now.
We still have the most talented squad in this tourney, and a big win over portugal could turn this ship around.
Overall we havent played that poorly. Outplayed denmark and I would say played a 50/50 game against the germans. Just bad luck, bad coaching and a shaky defense.
Do you think Germany will field their A side? They must right?
I hope we beat Portugal by two. Come to think of it, Denmark beat us after we beat them at the world cup, and at the euros a while back. So I think it’s about time we beat Portugal. It’s also fitting the way the tournament has been.
I wonder how awesome it would be if we manage to get into the quarterfinals and win the thing haha. Don’t deserve it so far.
Lets just beat Portugal and see.
🙂 Hup Holland!
Toni Kroos is on their B-side. That is scary.
Toni Kroos could easily be in the starting lineup. I think Joachim Low wants team stability and tries not to favor too many Bayern players. Kinda like Spain and Barca.
Germany has not qualified yet. Portugal or Denmark could potentially finish top of the group, and sure as hell the Germans do not want to encounter a powerful team in the next round.
The Germans will go all out again.
These results have indeed been sad and disappointing. Watching the central defence, I have to wonder why Brouwers isn’t included, or even considered for that matter for the national team. Does he not start for Borussia Monchengladbach? I thought he did. And they’re a top 4 side in one of the top three leagues in the world. And at 6’3″ would have provided the height and size that this defense lacks
Yep, we shared that same thought when team selection was made by Bert. A lot of us questioned by Brouwers wasn’t picked because he did well against Germany’s top clubs, and was part of a defense that never conceded more than 2 goals all season long.
That being said, I know this sucks a great deal, but I am oddly (daftly, I think) confident about Sunday. Germany will not be throwing their subs out there, they’re going to want Spain in the final, and will be shooting for first place. They still have not qualified, for if they lose to Denmark in a game that isn’t as high scoring as the Denmark-Portugal match, and Portugal wins as well, they will be knocked out. Same reason why the Dutch have to beat Portugal by 2. I’m very thankful Portugal won that game, gave us a chance; but regretful that it was so high scoring.
At the very least, I will be watching Sunday’s game for the pure entertainment. With a coach like BVM, this will be the only time we go for broke with a relentless attacking lineup. I suspect we should and will start with the same lineup that we did for the second half of the German game, with VP-Sneijder-Robben switching around as they see fit. VDV will be playing beside De Jong, with a possible substitution of Schaars in for Willems (I know Schaars isn’t an offensive option, but for the love of God we need to slow down those wingers as much as we can). With that said, maybe even Boula for VDW (did either full back show that much promise in attack? If not, we mine as well go with better defenders).
Once VDV gets tired (60 minute mark) I say we bring in Affelay, who was played a great deal of CDM over the years, and would be an incredible insertion of pace in the centre of pitch, where it is sorely needed, and will be able to run up and create the opportunities that Schweinsteiger did against us today.
The chances are slim, but I am still very excited for Sunday. We’ve been put into a situation where caution must be thrown out the windows, and we must go balls out in attack! Portugal’s defenders should be very worried. If we bow out on Sunday, I can guarantee it will be in a blaze of glory.
Hup Holland Hup!
Brouwers was probably not called because he is too old ? But Schaars not playing really escapes me. I mean, would he made a big diff? Of course not. The entire backbone of the team sucked… But Schaars plays for a big league, is young and can run. I also agree on Boula. F Wiel. He is useless and gutless.
Anyhow, this tournament is beyond salvation for us.
too late my friend, we are basically done for now.
Your hero Huntelaar had a golden chance against Denmark but missed.
Your messiah Huntelaar had 45 minutes to save Holland but he played like Donkey.
Stop pretending he would make a difference. He would never have scored that Van Persie wondergoal. Thats the goal that has given Holland hope and improved their goal difference going into the Portugal game.
Huntelaar would have scored a double against Denmark! The Danish GK made a good save whereas RvP blasted wide at every opportunity…
Playing when you’re 0-2 down!…. Again KJH wouldn’t have missed a one on one against Germany.
He didn’t have the service in the 2nd half and RvP’s “wonder goal” was an unsighted GK due to the shot going between the German defenders leg…
Wake up! We will never win a championship with RvP as the striker – we need a true poacher like Klass Jan “The Hunter” Huntelaar or Ricky “The Wolfman” Van Wolfswinkel.
The goal doesn’t matter re goal difference – Holland are competing with Portugal and Denmark for the spot, and it is gd between those teams only that will count in the event of a 3 way tie… so Holland could’ve lost 6-0 and be in exactly the same position as now.
That said, you are very good with points about Huntelaar – it is easy to say he would have scored the chance that van Persie missed early on, but he wouldn’t have got into that position, he’s a good finisher, but doesn’t have the brains for movement and positioning van Persie does. van Persie just seems to lose his finishing power for Holland, but maybe that goal will give him some confidence.
Brouwers is only 30. Maybe too old to be starting a fleding international career, but still younger than Mathijsen
I agree with your lineup 100%
and i cannot see how bvm cannot either
he would have to be an idiot not to.
its just so obvious, we need to go all out this game vs portugal.
robben sneijder vpersie behind hunter.
vdv and dejong.
vlaar or bouma or mathisjen to me it doesnt much matter.
boula and schaars can replace the 2 wingbacks for added stability
afellay, narsingh, and kuyt as subs if/when needed
“In many ways, the Netherlands are not a team at all, just a fantastically talented, and opinionated, set of individuals, arguably the best in the tournament, but at the sharp end of soccer – and the European championship is exactly that – that recipe is not one that leads to success.”
read it here, very true: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/talent-alone-not-enough-for-floundering-dutch-squad/article4257592/?cmpid=rss1
Good read about us not being a team, just a bunch of individually-gifted players.
I’ve read today some of us already wrote our young players are in high demand by big clubs. Now that I think about this again, this may not be good for the future of the Oranje. Big stars at big clubs = big egos. The golden decade squad of Frank/Ronald, Marc, Iceman, etc. were mostly from the Ajax academy. Plus a handful from Feyenoord or PSV.
I also read another good post here mentioning how national team players are pretty much “rented” players since they spend time mostly with their clubs. It’s hardly any surprise why Barcelona/Real and Bayern are regular contributors and Spain/Germany have been pretty stable.
Maybe the cure for future Oranje is to pick Eredivisie stars? Unlike the NBA teams (which pretty much need at least 2 superstars + 1 semi-superstars), a national team actually does not need any superstars. What they need are players who are hungry that have pride to play for the Oranje. I meant, WTF? How can you NOT be proud continuing the legacy of JC14? But how can you convince me that you’re proud when you don’t press or mark your opponents, especially when you’re trailing?
This is just me feeling chaotic since I did not watch the match live this PM (probably best for my own health) and I’m just thinking out loud. Even my German friend with whom I always talk trash with sent me an email today with a “pitiful” tone – nicest email I’ve ever got from him in regard to the Oranje/Germany rivalry.
Obviously we have other problems such as player selection: van Bommel still captaining us and semi-injured Mathijsen still starting is just NOT right. Even at his prime, van Bommel was never even a semi-superstar, how can he be our skipper? While Robben is one of my fav players, I guess I have to agree with the assessment that he is a loser after losing lots of finals. Maybe he never get over the miss against Iker in WC final.
I’m still supporting us and secretly hoping for miracle on Sunday (when I’m trying to preserve my sanity by going to the US Open Golf), I will NOT check any EURO score until I get out. If somehow we can squeeze it past group B, nothing will surprise me (think Denmark 1992 or Paolo Rossi in World Cup 1982 or even Marco in 1988).
Enough of my rants ….. replace BvM with my favorite Oranje: Frank de Boer #4!
HUP HOLLAND HUP!
The 1st half defending ruined the game. I kinda blame it on vBommel, who played the role of a spectator on the pitch. Definitely tired. And Willems, great lad, but it was apparent he lacks big game experience.
On the other hand Sneijder, RvP, Huntelaar, VdV, and even Robben (shouldn’t have been subbed imo) they actually created great performances in the 2nd half.
Over the years we have all critized BVM for boring tactics(if any), no alternative plans, never try out new players.
However there was some positives. He brought harmonic and mentality to the team. That brought us to the no.1 FIFA ranking, we believe.
Now we can see that all these are fake, not real. When things go wrong where have the mentality and teamwork gone? 1 bad game and the players start war. 2 goals down and they give up.
I was disappointed at the lack of passion shown by the team. Kinda sad when you remember the images of 2008 against France & Italy. They also looked tired (does flying 1300k before a game have any bearing on that ?). Robben predictable and Lahm read him correctly so many times. Willems over exposed…put Schaars in against his Portuguese team mates! put Narsingh in as no one knows him and then replace him with Robben after 60/70min, we seriously have not seen any good wing play. Return Vlaar to the middle. Play both Hunter and vP, preferably vP at No 10.
there was a certain improvement in our approach in the last game when compared to the first game though we have lost against germany.. it is not easy to play against germans at this point of time as they are mentally and physically stronger, the first lesson, holland defended well after 2 goals though the germans had chances to score but we didnt look vulnerable at all after the two goals.. then it is not easy to play 2 nil down to germans but played well in the absorbing heat.. its a good sign sign that we scored a goal from an impossible angle.. i would say holland will definitely score 2 or more goals and wait for germany’s result with denmark… holland will beat portugal by a margin of two or more goals.. i was a bit scared germany would have thrashed the dutch by more than 3 or more goals, but it dint happen which is a very good sign.. there are so many reasons first of all, after the first shocking defeat the dutch have been really mentally low which was very much reflected in the last game, but some how managed to cover it.. there is nothing shameful to lose against germans especially at this point of time.. all what we need is to get our act together and play well and keep the dutch players big mouth shut and play.. i hope these players must have understood by now… holland will play well and score against portugese, portugese will find it difficult to play in this kharkiv stadium.. portugal doesnt look that sharp at all and holland can easily go past portugese this time… scoring a goal against germans have literally increased the confidence .. which is what we require.. we just waited for this goal.. once the first hurdle is over then its easy.. there is nothing to get panic about… i pray the people and the press doesnt distract the players at this moment rather than let them concentrate and win the match.. we all need to stand together, ile, the people, the press, and the players..
Willems will be great but he is not ready for these games!. Our left back was empty it was like an avenue for the Germans.
I was sick when the Germans attacked and our players only looked at them!.
Don’t understand the clamour for Huntelaar, he didn’t exactly set the world alight when he came on. In fact he was totally anonymous for 45 minutes. van Persie at least tried hard and got into positions, I think our already static team will become even more static if we go with Huntelaar.
Suprised by Kuyt sub. I could understand if we were leading, but if we prefer him over Narsingh with 10 minutes to save the game then why take narsingh to the tournament at all?
Also I think our full backs are below par. van der Wiel doesn’t add anything to the attack even though he is reliable in defence. If seems two years too soon for Willem. Would be a big ask to change so much in the tournament proper, but I think there is a case to try out Boula and Schaars against Portugal, especially with Nani and Ronaldo’s threat on the wings.
guys. look. let’s quit complaining and just back our boys to win 2-0 against portugal. simple as that. after the tournament we can assess what went wrong, but now our team needs our support.
bloed, zweet en tranen
Tactical stupidities from BvM:
1) Robben as RW. Lahm plays every week with Robben and knows all his tricks so he should have played with Robben as LW.
2) Afellay. He is great but he hasn’t played at all and scoring against Northern Ireland doesn’t say much!. I won’t say with Huntelaar things would’ve been different but he really deserved to play!!!. Afellay 3 games with Barcelona? Huntelaar was the goalscorer of the Bundesliga!!!.
3) Willems is just a kid. I was glad when I saw him against Denmark but come on! give him a break! he has ZERO experience Bert had Schaars and even Emanuelson back home who has played as LB with Milan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Also I have to say that Van Bommel has to retire right away not only because he is slow but man he has NO balls. Experienced players are the ones supposed to lift the team when it’s down but he is really a huge disappointment.
Now I hope we won’t see any rift amongst the squad.
I am devastated it’s only a sport but I really had huge hopes of this team.
with all due respect guys, but are you serious when you talk about winning 2 – 0 against Portugal? Did you even watch the first two games? This is not a team. They will not win or draw a single game. Portugal is going to beat them.
By the way, I bleed Oranje as well. But I am just disgusted with this coach and the players and their egos.
What happened against Germany was a disgrace and I am not talking about the loss, every team loses, but I am talking about the performance and how the players behaved on the pitch…
We are already out unless a miracle happens!.
I said before the tournament I don’t care how we get through but if we do go through Bert will have to change EVERYTHING starting with their mentality.
I actually missed Kuyt. He is not the best but he inspires his teammates with his never give up attitude.
@Back to blog: AMEN.
i hate doing these things, but if i’m coach of holland, and i had to pick a team for portugal game,
Boulah, Heitinga, Mathijsen, Willems
Schaars De Jong
Robben Sneijder van persie
what a disgrace; this manager and this team
was hoping vMarwijk would be sacked during half time
Why does BvM have to wait until we are 2 goals down to bring in players that we needed from the start? What’s the logic behind that?
Goose, not at all. You are totally wrong. I am truly offended by all the nasty comments. We played very well for the first 20 min and certainly the last 20 or so. What we lacked was cohesiveness between the lines. We defended way too deep and that created huge holes that the Germans exploited. It is clear that some players are spent. VB is one and I agree that we need some new elements in the team but the basis of our team is still a top class one. Wes will likely be captain. One criticism of Bert is his player selection: Where is Urby? Where is Anita (by far the best midfielder in the Eredivisie? even De Vrij could have been called especially during the friendlies last year. We had 2 years to get new defenders and we wasted all that time.
guys, these team was made with the idea that the backbone of Joris/Mark/Dirk can carry it one more time. And it looked like it could happen till last november when things start falling apart. Even if then BvM realized it, it would still be too late to change things.
Joris/Mark/Dirk have never been great footballers but they got balls and leadership. Every team needs a backbone … even Wiel grows balls next to them. These guys turn out to have one too many summers on this planet and cannot play like 2010 for more than 20 – 25 mins tops.
Ok, so what can BvM really do? realize 6 months ago this will not work and build a new backbone? come on, could not happen. call Pep, he can’t do it either.
The planning turn out to be wrong. Sure blame BvM but on the other hand if Joris/Mark/Dirk could do it one more time, you would call him a hero now.
Point is, there are a-male leaders right now to immediately replace Joris/Mark/Dirk.
So many screamed get Dirk out. He did. And that was the result? Iby loaded Northern Ireland but choked with Danemark and Germany.
Instead of looking for redemption with Portugal, might as well plan to build a new core perhaps Peters will be Joris and Stroot will be Mark. Both have personalities and actually know much better soccer.
We need a new Kuyt and off we go. Ready for another good world cup.
We need to make sure all of our talents leaves for better leagues. Douglas, Peters, Stroot, all need to get out now.
BTW, I also feel Stijn and Brouwers would do a better job , also prefer Hunter than vP BUT I think none of that would have made a big diff.
I watched the entire studio sports zommer and the consensus is exactly along the lines of what I mentioned earlier. We did not play compact enough. Instead of closing space we created space for the germans. If we want to retain possession we need to do Barca style by pressing high up the field. Yes it is risky but that’s what we did 4 years ago with Marco. 2 years ago at the WC we also play much more compact. The 2 defensive midfielders were sharp and provided an additional barrier. Not this year. I think the result against Portugal is irrelevant as we have to build and prepare for the WC 2014.
We have the best attack that any international team has every had yet we still play this defensive formation…. why we dont go all out attack we have the weapons why not use them to our full adnvantage they score 2 we score 3 and so on.
Afellay started both games and didn’t play the whole season so why was Elia not even called?….It’s not that I don’t like Afellay but these decision seem to be made on favoritism just like Willems went instead of Anita or Emanuelson.
Because Elia played about as much as Afellay this season. Seriously, I think he played about 4 games for Juve. Horrible situation for him, but he’s been given the green light to look elsewhere. He just isn’t what he used to be however, with the lack of game time.
I started bleeding orange in 1992. I still remember the trashing of Germany 3-1 in EC 1992. In 20 years, I have never seen oranje fail to make it past the group stages in a major tournament (I think WC 2002 was cancelled wasn’t it)? Just like all of you fellow oranje fans, I’ve been through the ups and downs (more downs unfortunately)! I remember the painful losses to Italy in EC 2000 and Brazil in WC 1998. While these losses were painful, every one in the world knows we were the better team. We dominated, were fearless, created chances, suffocated the other team.
After the world cup, particularly after losing to Sweden in the last “meaningless” qualification game, I saw the signs of the decline. People on this blog called me a negative pessimist, but all the signs were there. Not beating Switzerland at home, getting humiliated by Germany 3-0, barely beating a Rooney-less England with an interim coach, losing to Bayern and Bulgaria, an ugly win against Slovakia. People were happy after beating N. Ireland (the 100th ranked nation) 6-0 and thought we were back. I disagreed with all these “optimists” but once again was called a negative pessimist.
What I saw against Denmark and Germany was beyond my imagination. Some have tried to argue that we created chances and played well. Really? I don’t mind playing and dominating, yet losing due to luck- just like WC 1998 and EC 2000. In such case, you can leave with your head high. But the performances in BOTH games in the EC 2012 were nothing close to dominant. So you argue that we had close to 30 shots against Denmark. I don’t call shooting to the stands a chance. I don’t consider a team that is down 1-0 not pressing the Danish and suffocating them with attack in the last 10 minutes a dominant team. Why were we afraid against the Germans? If we loose we loose. Isn’t this the mentality we’ll play against Portugal with now? Denmark came back from down 2-0. Ukraine fought back against Sweden to win the match. Czech were humilated 4-1 their first game but bounced back and won their second game. None of these team has the stars oranje does. Thinking about it, may be this is why these teams came back from being down. Because they played as a team with no fear. Because there were no prima donnas.
Some of you blame individual players and some blame BVM. I blame both. I don’t think ANY player showed up, except for Sneijder and De Jong. It was a disgraceful display by our players and a disgraceful tactics by a stubborn coach.
I’m out of words. Even in the ugly loss in 2006 against Portugal we showed signs of fighting- literally. This team has lost its soul and identity, I believe in miracles only when I see one…
I personally try to have a positive view until the wheels stop moving a.k.a the team gets knock out or something, I was going to wait till the Portugal game. But I couldn’t agree more with the points you mentioned above, my personal quote for this team is “the system just broke down”. The Team as a whole manager included suffered from an identity crisis. On one side the players looked disoriented, disorganized without any form of fighting spirit, they looked liked an all star team compiled for the weekend (playing for nothing).
At this point Van Marwijk failed to manage his team with an iron fist, imposing his leadership and authority, managing emotions, inspiring and motivating and organizing strategy and tactics.
This team just waits and waits to see what happens, being 0-1 down (with the qualification in limbo) allowing suanstiger alone with the ball when you supposedly have 2 defensive midfielders is just unacceptable…
I totely agree with you,I’ve been fan of dutch football since Euro 1988,as you said I’ve never seen dutch team so static, they themselves were not convinced to win, although german are not the mannschaft we use to see,not that brilliant but as usual realistic.
IN WC Italy1990,the dutch were also in ‘death group’ with England and Germany who won the cup but at least at that time german were convincing…
This team unfortunately has no “spirit”
Oh come on, don’t get overcritical.
Against the German you always get 50-50 chance. The Denmark game was just a fluke. Of course, against Portugal, things get a little bit too late.
It’s a group of death. Once you slipped, there isn’t much opportunity to recover. Should’ve taken any point from that Denmark match.
With the abundant talents, I don’t think we’ll see any dark ages. And BvM is not even half as horrendous as Domenech.
I did not disagree that Hunter is a good goalscorer. However watching him today Hunter could not hold the ball while waiting for support. Van Persie is better technical and he can control the ball waiting for support while Hunter lost it so often. I still like the idea of starting Hunter up front and Van Persie right behind him. Perhaps starting with Afellay (sub Narsingh in if Afellay does not play well). Keep Robben on the bench and perhaps sub him in after 60, 70 min if needed. Please do not sub Kuyt in. If Bert somehow can pull off a miracle by transfoming this team to beat Portugal 2-0 then even if we do not advance, it is a bit less painful. I love to see Oranje defeating Portugal. I don’t mind seeing Strootman to start. Giving him a chance as Van Bommel should retire after this tournament (if Van Bommel can put the team ahead of him).
beating Portgugal with 2 goals. then Russia and Germany would be wenderfull. i just hope we spent which is need to growing up our experience.
Anyone else finds it weird that vdVaart was made the captain when he came in replacing MvB? If he’s good enough as a (substitute) captain, why wasn’t he started? Why not Sneijder as the replacement captain?
I hope MvB will NEVER wear an Oranje kit again, not even this Sunday against Portugal. BvM probably will not make any changes but this squad NEEDS to be revamped, not after this tournament but this Sunday!
I don’t really care who’ll play but if I have the decision, I will not start MvB, Heitinga and Mathijsen. I will not even put them on the bench.
Captain isn’t distributed to the best players; they’re distributed to team leaders. VDV is the team leader when MVB isn’t on the pitch
Captain isn’t distributed to the best players; they’re distributed to team leaders. VDV is the team leader when MVB isn’t on the pitch
I don’t disagree with that but it is still weird to give the armband to someone who was deemed not good enough to start (leader or not). And I really do NOT think MvB is worthy of the “leader” label of the squad.
This tournament reminds me so much of the 1980 European Championships. Coming off of a World Cup Runner-up performance, lost in some fashion of controversy. Still retaining a core of important players, holding over from up to 6-8 years before. Drawn into a Group with Germany, and an old antagonist (’80 Czechoslovakia, now Portugal), and a supposed “weak” opponent (’80 Greece, now Denmark). And it has unfolded the same way. By the 2nd match (in 1980 a 3-2 loss to Germany) it has become obvious that whatever worked before, isn’t working now. And as in 1980, we end the Group Play against a team that had knocked us out of a previous Euro (Czech in ’76 3-1, and Portugal 2-1 in ’04, who also seems to searching for one last gasp of glory from it’s generation unrealized. Whether from key players being too slow, too old, or having run out of ideas, the magnificence from before is sad and irrelevant now. It is Deja Vu. It is eerie. And it is sad above all. I am hoping that this Euro doesn’t also mirror the subsequent absence of Oranje for the subsequent tournaments, which it most certaintly shouldn’t. But the fallout from Euro ’80 was a failure to qualify for 3 successive tournaments (WC 1982 & 1986, and Euro 1984). We need to get this figured out very quickly, whether or not the next match results in a Quarter-Final appearance or not. The inevitable fallout from this tournament, should we most likely go home after the next match will claim a coach, and several “key” players. Will that shake up have the same impact as it did on the 1982 WC Qualifying? And even if we do somehow beat Portugal by 2 or more goals, will that then reinforce the continuance of a system that is fated to fall apart again in 2014 on a bigger stage?
1980 again indeed!
Guys we’re still in shock / panick mode. As someone said, we only need to make changes where they are required. And the biggest requirement is in defnese (all 4 roles should be re-evaluated) and in holding midfield position (MVB will retire and who can replace him). As for the forward positions, as long as they are fit, they will be selected whoever is the coach because they are great players. With regard to the coach, it also depends on who will replace BVM because i would still prefer him on certain coaches. However i tend to agree that time has come for him to leave. Again the problem of mental preparedness is the biggest problem for any Dutch team (this was solved very well in WC2010 but has re-emerged this tournament). Players are simply not prepared mentally, not determined enough, not hungry enough for such tournaments. We thought this was solved 2 years ago but it re-emerged. Also whatever we say, luck continues to play a big role. We were lucky 2 years ago, now we’re not. For those who don’t remember we were also very lucky to qualify from the group stage in 1988 !!!
My German buddy said : they are good when they have the ball, but when it’s the other team, they all walk, except De Jong, who rushes in too fast…
well talking about experience jetro certainly does not have enough under his belt but how about mark van bommel guys? been wearing orange shirt since 2000 but this is his first european championships. he certainly does not have idea regarding how to play in the tournament not featuring teams ranked 70 or 120. so please spare Mr. MVB 😀
Four major problems in this game:
1. Poor Finishing — Holland created numerous chances at the very beginning of the game but could not finish. They have the top scorer in the Premier League playing striker. Don’t know what else to say here, but if one of those initial chances is finished, it’s a completely different game.
2. Attacking Individualism — after the first game, we were complaining about a separation between six players in the back and four up front. Today, the four players up front seems isolated from each other, each trying to get it done on their own. Which leads to…
3. No Movement Off the Ball — Other than during the first few minutes, Holland’s attacking players stopped making attacking runs. Movement is such a hallmark of Dutch football, but for long streches, the team as a whole was very static. Germany’s chances were all created by movement and teamwork.
4. Pressing / Effort — Which team needed this game? You couldn’t tell by watching when Holland didn’t have the ball. No pressing, no sense of urgency, players standing, watching and/or walking around while goals are being scored
There was a moment in the first half when Persie attacked on the left and the absence of any other flowing orange was just heartbreaking. He was an island. Yes, Persie had missed chances… but he was all but abandoned. In that moment, we seemed completely dysfunctional.
All four of your points are spot on.
agreed JB. every team for a certain period of time, may be, 1 or 2 or 3 games tends to have problems #1 and #2 but the most annoying was the problem #3 and #4. i mean how can they certainly run out of motivation and energy and drive. especially when we did not hav the ball in our feet we did not press enough. de jong in the second half was good. cant blame the guy, tried his best to shield the defense. and i think if the boss wants to save the job he shud not play his son-in-law for the next game. i still think bvm is the man for the job and it is little too early to discuss about his future. but he needs change a few things become like
being more innovative in the middle, try different plans during the game – the inverted winger idea doesnt seem to work well.
we also did not put enough crosses in the box. i remember from robben’s chelsea days until 2008 when he used to play as left sided winger and provide quality crosses. but since he has gone to munich the guy is very much changed in his game. yes it looks great to see him cut inside and shoot but the guy is low in confidence these few weeks so i insist bert play him as a left wing. he still has that ability to make good cross as we see once last night to van persie.
my 2 cents on the game….mark van bommel is really spent and does not have the energy to run around and contain or win those 50-50 balls for even 45 mins, robben really looked eager to win even with blood ozzing and sneijder really played like then man he is, reminded me of that brasil holland game in WC10 when he really was at his best….cud not realise why stekelberg went down so early in that second goal…and why would van merjwick bring on KYUT for robben when you are a goal down and rrobben not playing the selfish game he is known for..but that second goal from gomez was the best moment of the match…really doubt if he can do that in match situation 5 times out of 10…after all he is known as somebody who has a good header but bad legs…
but i still believe we are really not that bad…just that the results are so bad…hopefully one big win against portugal wud turn things..
Let the dutch team start how he ended germany game, we won the second half, luck also didn’t help much, still weird how stek reacted to the second goal,let’s beat portugal, and proove we can, and if we qualified then its another story, BVM must be convinced his classic system won’t work,
PS : Sneijder I adore ur game, this player is a class
Sneijder got spirit, and not in good form….well we won the second half, because the German know they have already won the match
Robben is selfish, he should go back to play tennis ,as he doesn’t fit in a team sport
i’m still shocked. oranje played well in the first twenty minutes,but they had physical problems to keep the hight tempo (i don’t understand why), and with such a bad defense you cannot expect great things. germany didn’t play brilliant football,but they were very pragmatic,played with their brain. in the second half they didn’t press too much,just wanted to keep the ball. oranje didn’t play as a team. i don’t believe we’ll beat portugal,they are better,play with more motivation and their defense is far better,and cristiano ronaldo is very angry,i’m afraid he’ll punish the dutch defense. i don’t blame rvp,huntelaar played the second half,and didn’t do too much. only sneijder and de jong plyed ok,but the rest… rvp wasn’t that bad,but robben one more time prooved he’s useless,mvb is spent,matthijsen and heitinga were pathetic,stekelenburg hasn’t evolved in rome,van der wiel is at the same level as two years ago.
what else should i say? from the very beginning i hasn’t appreciated van marwijk not too dutch approach,but results came abd to some extent we accepted his pragmatic philosophy,but now changes are needed. frank rijkaard,frank de boer,co adrianse or a foreigner coach should replace van marwijk (pep guardiola would be perfect,but i’m sure if one day he trains a national side,it’ll be argentina with messi).
after the euro i would keep stekelenburg,heitinga (we don’t have better),willems,de jong,sneijder,affelay,rvp,huntelaar,kuyt and some squad players,but definitely would say good bye to van der wiel (till he won’t evolve probably in a top league),matthijsen (not too old,but too slow),mvb (too old,too slow),vdv (physical problems and he doesn’t add extra value to the team),robben (not a team player and his game has become very predictable,and he’s definitely not at the same level as mark overmars – a real great – was). the new oranje has to be built around sneijder.
Ferenc, I disagree. Robben is still very dangerous. I think he was too isolated on the right wing which is why he kept coming to the left side. But Bert was mad and told him to go back on the right. He made a brilliant run and give a wonderful assist to Wes who should have scored. The key difference between us and them is that they made every opportunity count and we did not.
As I have written before, Robben must start as a left winger and crossing the ball as many as possible to the center.
Now I am thinking about Afellay. He is not good. Everytime he run with the ball, then he must stop then pass the ball back. He cannot get past his marker. He cannot cross or he cannot pass the ball like Sneijder. So, against Portugal, Affellay must be replaced with VdV.
I still don’t understand how Holland is able to beat Portugal. Not only one, but two goals.
oh God, is BVM going to keep his post till 2016 ?? that can’t be true! the team needs new names new tactics, his system is too stale….
we can say whatever we want,but the last time i really enjoyed oranje at a big tournament was under marco in 2008
True that !
i was rereading soccernomics, and looking at age as when its a primary indicator of talent, 22 thru 28 is best, players in their 30s are overrated and i’m thinking in my head, Bert van Marwijk is just not creative, In the book, a group of men sit down, with different opinions and think together who they should select to buy. Obviously with the words of frank de boer at ajax complaining of the selection of bouma and psv player heavy. Bert Van Marwijk didn’t have a diverse group around him to help him select.
another thing, goalies are underrated, centerforwards are overrated.
Knowing the worth of a player, sell him when someone offers you more than what he’s worth, well same applies to the national team, know the value of a player on the team, If he can’t contribute he shouldn’t be playing
Quite simply, no creativity and smarts, Willems shouldn’t be looked at until he’s 22, at least 20 if he’s good enough. Holland had guys at the good age, especially vurnon anita. Second, Mathijsen and Van Bommel are too old, he should have been looking for replacements for these guys a while ago.
Lets say there is no injury, to Erik Pieters, He doesn’t always have to be a left back, He’s 6’4, thats 193 cm, he could have put him at center back,
and let anita, viergiever, and some others try out, and see if they can make it. I mean thats a clear issue of no creativity. Who knows, Maybe they move pieters to mathijsen spot, and he turns into the next jaap stam, he does have the ability to move forward.
Soo many things. The game against Portugal… I hope we win 3-0, I would like to call it the great escape!!!!!! we can make it out if we are lucky.
Even after all the bad things, the truth is, we could easily be on 6 points. If van persie makes his chances, we could be sitting easy in the group
Our country is blind to producing defenders. We through in little boys at 18 or 20 years old. When you need to give them time to develop. Even Büttner would have been a better bet than Willems at this point. We have defensive talent: Nuytinck, Viergever, Büttner and Janmaat and even younger talents like Gouweleeuw, Van Rhijn, Willems, De Vrij, Martins Indi, Leerdam and Bruma, but exactly the problem is that Bert prefers to pick too old players or too young players for his defense. I’m sure Willems can be our left back, in about 2-4 years time..
On a more general note, I do blame Van Marwijk for changing 0 from the team, more importantly the positioning of the players, that lost quite miserably from Denmark, and which showed remarkable likeness in their losses agains teams like Sweden, Bulgaria, Bayern and.. was it Switzerland ? or
he’s not creative, and he creates problems that he fixes, there was no true problem with the defense,
From what i’m reading, it’s very true, A player gets really good around 22, and stays good till he’s 30, then when he’s over the 30 age, it comes to an individual basis, some guys perform great after that age, and lots don’t. Van Bommel had it two years ago, But now he simply doesn’t have it. I can accept his decision to put heitinga in because heitinga was great for everton, no one would expect him to play soo bad. But with mathijsen who did he try out to replace him? It was coming for a while, mathijsen had to go, and before the euros, who did he try, vlaar, and bouma, bouma first, vlaar is already 27 years old, He’s not going to make a move to a bigger club, it’s very unlikely.
So he has these guys that are just reaching the perfect age,
stefan de vrij age 20, wanted by aston villa, everton and newcastle (whats with newcastle and french and dutch players??)
Bram Nuytinck age 22, wanted by borussia monglendbach, and west bromwich albion in premier league
Nick viergever age 22, although, i haven’t read anything of teams wanting him. it’s the perfect age to buy him
Alexander Buttner, age 23, wanted by fulham and shaktar donetsk in ukraine
Jeffrey gouwelleuw age 20, two years away from showing if he’s the real deal or not, defenders do get leeway till they are 24
Ricardo van rhijn age 21, already showing glimpses and better than van der wiel
Vurnon anita age 23, enough said
Daley Blind is 22, has two more years to prove he’s the big time or not
although, one thing i don’t agree with is people don’t like erik pieters, but with him gone, he’s proving just how important and good he is, i mean he’s really good. he’s 23, wanted by newcastle.
Agree on parts of that, I’ve thought about posting Pieters in a CB pairing with Douglas: height, physique and a very dynamic and fast player with Douglas. Willems could be leftback in 2 years or so. I expect Van Rhijn to topple V.d.Wiel, he’s already looking like he’s better defensively. Van der Wiel has lost himself into believing he’s a superstar, sure he had/has potential, but defensively he developed 0, and offensively he seems to be underachieving.
Willems – Pieters – Douglas – V.Rhijn came to mind for… I dunno 2-4 years from now.
Onzie, my man,
those were my thoughs back in February when Holland was playing the England friendly. Why not use Pieters as a CB, in the place of Mathijsen. He has the size to be a CB, and that will open a spot on the LB position for someone with speed and athletism to perfect that position. Not that Pieters will not do well, but, he is more suited as a CB, especially with his size that you pointed out. This way Emmanuelson or Anita would have been our LB for this tournament, and in the future Williems, which will be special could learn from.
We can make it out ofthe group on Sunday with things falling our way, but if so, will that mean BVM stayed on for the long term, with nothing changing, who knows?
You made a comment yesterday about the 49ers under Singletary, in 2010, they were the favourites to win their division, they blew that year, going 6-10, fired Singletary, hired Harbaugh for 2011, and were a couple of plays from going to the Super Bowl, drastically improving forthe long run.
My point with this is, that sometimes if things are about to explode, maybe let it, and not fix them up with band-aid solutions so nothing will be fixed in the long run??
Whatever the case may be, I hope they come out and play hard on Sunday for themselves and the program overall.
i’m a dolphins fan man, i know what you mean by blowing it up, and just putting bandaids, the dolphins around 2000 were good enough to win the superbowl, but were one quarterback away. and they just kept putting band-aids, till they went 1-15, and haven’t recovered since.
but that just proves good coaching is important. and Holland doesn’t have good coaching, I still want to win the euro, but i think if bert van marwijk wins it, he needs to step down. Do himself and everyone else a favor, and go to a club team in germany or some team in england.
San francisco doesn’t have a good quarterback, they are one quarterback away from being a dynasty, Good coaching can only get you so far. And harbaugh knows, he went after peyton manning for a reason.
It’s the same with Holland, we know BVM isn’t good enough, we need a replacement, We need replacements for van bommel, mathijsen, heitinga, robben, van persie, huntelaar, soon, Sneijder i think is like an italian player and will age well. but others will need to be replaced in 4 years. World cup is the last chance lots of the stars get
to put it simple, blowing it up wont matter for holland. it’s not like a team like san francisco or a club team, where they can hire a new manager, and he can get new players, the dutch coach can only select dutch players, and he has to make due with what he has, Bert van marwijk is like the guy that has lebron james, dwayne wade, Kobe and chris bosh, and says, i’m only gonna start lebron. Kobe will be on the bench
You a Dolphins fan, nice! Blowing up the team can also mean a new direction, different vision with a new coach that will look to the future, different system. That is my hope for this team.
Some observations, when Germany won the U-21 European Championship in 2009, they immediately loaded the WC2010 team with players who started at the WC and did very well.
Can you name me any players that have started for the senior team from the U-21 team in 2007?
I can answer that very easy, ZERO. With exception of Erik Pieters, who would have been on this team, there is no one. Are you saying that not one of those guys were capable of making this squad? Guys like Gianni Zuiverloon, Ryan Donk, Hedwiges Maduro, Royston Drenthe, Daniël de Ridder, Maceo Rigters, where are these guys.
That is my hope for the future, be bold, take chances on players, encourage the Dutch league to keep players in the country, build a nucleus and grow from there.
But having said all this, watch Holland come out with nothing to lose on Sunday, win 2-0, Germany beats Denmark 1-0, then we are through, and all this is forgotten.
Yes there are many problems in different areas … but at the end of the day, the chances missed have been decisive. We created enough to be on 4 points at least …
we lost our games, we lost our football playing style, now , we have lost everything….Bert is the main victim
Obviously the match yesterday was a huge disappointment and everyone has offered their 2 cents on what to do and what not to do, who needs to go and who needs to stay etc.
As a supporter who bleeds Orange, I’m hoping for a convincing victory on Sunday (anyway they can get it!) What’s done is done and I’m hoping they can pull together as a team – personally I enjoy these tournaments more when my team is still in it. (gives me a chance to pull on my new jersey which I purchase every 2 years at least for one more match)
I think they need to find some sort of inspiration from somewhere and definitely, as many of you have said, act like a team and not as individuals.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few…
By the way, the Finnish commentator said during the match that BvM has a contract with KNVB until the EURO 2016. If this is true, can it realistically hold? Won’t he be under huge pressure to resign after this?
That would cover a world cup and yet another European championship. Could this be possible after this performance?
I’m 90% sure he will have to hand in his contract, because there’s about that much chance of him being eliminated now.
I have many thoughts on what went wrong, maybe I’ll share them with you guys.. xD If anyone cares lol.
i would like to know your detailed opinion and have a question: you mentioned young defenders. do you think one or more have the talent to become worldclass or at least very reliable player? any of them can participate in the build-up?
Ill just respond to your question, I agree with Jaap Stam that Van Rhijn is likely to be a top player, he’s a right back, can play CB though. De Vrij also impresses me as Centre back and Willems can be a top left back. All of those have technique, footballing ability and loads of talent. We can only hope at least those are going to develop to the top.
The closest ones after that are in my opinion, still Jeffrey Bruma, who needs experience and confidence, and Gouweleeuw, who is still a very green defender so to speak.
About Nuytinck, Viergever, Leerdam, Janmaat, Martins Indi, I’m not sure. They can turn out to be great, or nothing.
This is what I find so odd about Dutch football, some players can look superb at 17, 18 and then flop. Even Patrick Kluivert never achieved as much as looked possible when he was 18, 19.
I watched quite a few matches of the kids from Feyenoord and liked de Vrij and Martins Indi a lot, although Martins Indi seemed a bit flaky both in discipline and concentration. But I would’ve expected both to progress to the national team by the 2014 qualifiers. de Vrij and Vlaar could be developed to be a better partnership than Heitinga and Mathijsen on last night’s terrible showing.
But look at a midfield player like Bruins – he played well and had success in younger Holland age groups, and was part of that young Feyenoord set up as well, 2006-07 ish he was a hot prospect… but in the really poor season Feyenoord had – when they lost 10 to PSV – he seemed to disappear as a player and any chance of him playing for the full national team or even a good club team outside Holland now and having a top career has gone. So is he an example of someone who had really good potential, but wasn’t coached well or something stopped him developing? Or was he just never as good as people on Eurosport and other media we see here in England were telling us?
Huntelaar has been hyped beyond belief here as some sort of new Marco van Basten for more years than I care to remember, but I don’t see him as top international class… I’m not even sure Mario Gomez is tbh, Holland just made him look like that… I don’t rate the Bundesliga that highly.
But back to my main point, is there too much pressure on Dutch youngsters to be the next big thing? I enjoy your posts Alex, even though I’m mainly a lurker, because you know so much about the up and coming Dutch players to look out for.
it’s not odd as all, there is something called puberty and growth rates.
Have you read the book the outliers, they talked about how in canada,
most hockey players are born in january, then the month with the second most players was february, and the third month with the most players is march, and they realized that the national cut off date for youth hockey was january 3rd i believe, So guess what, your 12 years old, playing youth, born in january, and you hit puberty, you got testosterone, you got a growth spurt, your bigger than the others, you get noticed, you get sent to bigger and better teams. you play many house with those better players, you go pro.
on the flip side, your 11, born in december, your playing, and your smaller, you don’t get noticed, coach puts you in practice, but game time, you get less minutes, or none at all. you keep playing against worse players, and then what? you likely don’t go pro
So what happens with dutch players and other countries too, is some players grow bigger faster, or have speed, and strength before others, So at 18 they are playing awesome, and dominate, looking like a superstar, but by the time they are 22, guess what, the slow grower and late bloomers, like strootman come along, and now it’s about who has the best skills, and sometimes they live up to the hype, other times they don’t live up to the hype. Holland does a great thing with the youth in that they force a team to play or find a team for a player until he’s 22. So that means he can still get playing time, and develop.
Other countries like england which want speed and strength, weed out the weak at an early age, unfairly, and then they got a bunch of speed demons who don’t live up to the hype
I’d like to hear it from you man.
I care! Tell us
Any comments from Dutch media today? I hope there is a revolt in the media to get BvM dismissed.
And I am convinced he will again start the same 11 against Portugal, lol. No chance our uninspired bunch will beat fierce Portugal. There will be more of the same. And maybe for the best.
The boys looked too tense, trying too hard when they got into the scoring zone. Started well enough, but once the first 15 minutes didn’t produce a goal (despite several good chances) the tension really set in.
RvP was snatching at his shots, Affelay played without conviction, Robben looks fatigued, and Sneijder wasn’t as sharp.
It’s hard to believe that a team which loses 2 games out of 3 can still make the next round, but that’s the way it is. I have no idea how the game against Portugal will go. I can plausibly see them flogging us, us flogging them, and every result in between.
Shameful, that no-one wanted to receive the ball – especially from throw ins.
Notable lack of psychological strength.
Notable lack of movement too. Desire must stem from the manager. There was no desire.
It’s fine when football goes your way. Everyone is singing. The real measure of a team and its manager can be found when a team starts losing.
We did not respond – in the same way BVM has not responded to an ageing squad… or to going behind in games. He does not have a plan B. Ever.
We play the same stifling way, game after game, always with the handbrake on. Scared to lose, rather than determined to win.
We have also played some decent football at times so far this tournament. On rare occasions we even got numbers into the box!
Rest assured, these were merely a few individual talents – possibly looking for some club contracts so they can buy another house.
Cruyff said, and I believe him, that your defenders should be your best players.
Clearly ours aren’t, and if you cannot defend well, you also cannot attack well.
However, there is no point playing with 7 of 11 players in defense. NONE WHATSOEVER. It’s inviting risk already, at a psychological level. It’s showing weakness. Worse still, it suffocates.
We must encourage new, young talent into our defense for sure, but 5 (4 plus goalie) is enough.
Germany realised that in 4231 the two holding mids could also be used to push forwards and support the lone attacking mid. Germany’s holding mids play like normal mids. Ours DO NOT do that. Too scared. Not talented or even young enough.
Germany’s back line is no better than ours. You don’t see them worried about it too much.
You will not get good football from 4231 with two holding mids. End of story. The system is inherently FLAWED.
A good team can carry one holding midfielder – that’s already 6 players in defense (more than half your team).
Two is suicidal.
We got by on good fortune and good reputation before.
Both have gone now. Ruined.
Dutch football lies broken and in tatters this morning, and I hold BVM squarely responsible.
I believe the players must take some blame too, but they seem to have given up on BVM, and I have too.
His system worked in spite of him. It worked because we had natural talent to persevere. We were psychologically strong, and we were feared.
Our players look old and tired, and many of them should have been auctioned of as antiques years ago.
We now face the prospect (inevitability) of going home after just 3 games – and having NO experienced youngsters coming through to take over.
Furthermore, we have no new game plan. STILL no plan B.
Are the next generation of Dutch players going to be forced to play under BVM for another 4 years in a 4231 with 2 defensive mids? Or should we just expect Van Bommel to be leading us out at Euro 2016?
I see BVM as a good coach – He is stubborn, resolute etc – the things you need.
He is smart too.
But sadly he just isn’t a KILLER.
He’s pragmatic, at best.
Holland needs a change now. We need an attack minded coach. We must return to what we do best, or be the laughing stock of world football. Choose.
If we must stick with 4231, then only use one holding mid against the toughest teams, otherwise play with two creative players back there, move up the pitch as a team and let’s do damage again.
Sadly, and more for this reason than any other, 4231 also needs overlapping wingbacks, or the wide mids get isolated. This is where you are vunerable.
So, in that case I would always favour a return to 433.
It’s in our blood.
I would rather lose 2-1 to the Germans playing beautifully, than go down without a fight like last night.
Heitinga, De Jong, Sneijder, Van Persie, Van Der Vaart can all stand tall this morning. They showed some passion at least.
As for the rest, I have no real words for them.
Good review Rocky. I think BvM has turned delusional after the 2010 success. I always wondered before the tournament started how do we react if we fall 1-2 goals down and my worries proved true. No plan B, just more of the same. No going for broke after 2-0 down, but just being careful and content with 2-1.
I can’t wait to hear JC’s opinion on yesterday’s game.
Good post man!!
One or two times when Robben cared to look up he looked lethal, even after losing three finals how can a player be so selfish…muppet
Put Robben on the right = he cuts inside and shoots 99 out of 100 times.
Put Robben on the left = he’s forced to go on the outside and put in a cross..
I would even say change keeper. Stekelenburg gone. Krul or Vorm would do a better job. Only one defensive midfield. Make room for vdv. Perhaps give Narsingh a go. No one really knows him and he could give a some surprises. If that doesn’t work later on, then bring Robben on. He will then be fresh and quick while the Portugese have tired. Bert has got to change the team. Got to.
Relax, Portugal is just as wasteful as Netherlands.
Fierce, create a lot of chances, and still marquee players upfront cannot convert because they are more gelled in their respective clubs.
Still one can pray for a good day where the ball happens to flew to the goal, minding that both GKs are not in the best shape either.
Too bad for Stek, he shouldn’t have gone to a troubled club like Roma.
I remember that Jan said after EC that we need fresh blood, because we need ambition. Well we lack of ambition.
I have been saying for months that the main BvM problem is that he doesn’t rebuild the team. That we need to rebuild this team before EC and no after EC. We should think in WC 2014, and we didn´t.
I think players like Clasie, Strootman, Maher, De Vrij can change something. I know they are not ready yet but we need fresh blood. I miss a lot have a Clasie in midfield; he is very fast and creative player. Even I miss Emanuelson. He can be a good sub for Willems in second time when we need to score.
Now we will rebuild the team after EC, and the new players will not save this EC experience….
mistake: instead “jan said after” should said “before”
Portugal already has a win in the bag. A draw would probably be enough for them to progress. I hope the Germans beat Denmark. Otherwise, it doesn’t matter what we do against Portugal.
Guys, what I’m worried about more is the next World Cup. I think this tournament should be used as a learning experience. We absolutely need to bring in fresh faces. Especially on defense. I would seriously like to never see Heitinga and Mathijsen in an Oranje shirt. These guys have failed.
I know Mathijsen is definitely retiring after this Euro 2012. I also hope we find a replacement for Heitinga. Their inability to be competent defenders have seriously handicapped our team. There would be no need to play with two holding midfielders if these two CB would have any decent ability. I’m not convinced about Vlaar at all. He just reminds me a lot of Johan Djourou at Arsenal. He has the right physique but he lacks quick thinking, passing and situational awareness.
1. We need solid defenders. They don’t have to be world-class defenders. They just need to be able to give our team a chance and some confidence.
2. We need one good holding midfielder. I don’t know how good Strootman is but he is young and has good size and mobility. He should take over from MVB.
3. We absolutely need fast speedy players with good vision and passing abilities. Ola John, Wynaldum, Narsingh are some of the ones I feel need to start getting serious playing time. Elia has left Juventus. I hope he can ressurect his talents and find a good team where he can be useful to our team again.
4. I know BVM has a contract until 2016. I don’t know what he’s going to do after this tournament. If by some miracle we survive the group and go through, he may stay. If we are out, he probably will lose the confidence of the team, especially the current starters. Whether he stays or goes, we need to change the system and also have plan B when things do not go according to plan.
rebuild orange after EC.
Our 23 players in 4-3-3
Robben Huntelaar V. Persie
Elia W Wolkswilkel Narshing
Sneijder Clasie Affelay
Maher Strootman Wijnaldum
Pieters De Vrij Gouweleeuw Vd Wield
Willems Viergiver Bruma van Rhijn
>Guys, what I’m worried about more is the next World Cup
Sam, let’s be realistic here. We are a small country. We barely make 11 good players to fill the team. We only have two years left till 2014 and we need to make several changes. What makes you hope we will dominate again in 2014? I think chances are slim…
Our best chance to show something good is probably EK2016…
just trying to keep the expectations realistic.
We dominated world soccer for almost a year and half. 2010 until mid 2011… That has not happened since the mid 70s… 35 years ago.
Even the 98 team was not that dominant, good team but the 2010 really smothered the opponents. Like we did the first 20′ with Germany. Hey, this things don’t happen all the time.
Some younger guys here think we are going to put a few new players and voila, back to glory.. Dudes, if that was that easy then it wouldn’t take us 32 years between WC finals.
It is really hard to compete with nations of 100-200 million people. Brazil can bring two teams to every world cup and they wouldn’t be too shaby.
Sorry, don’t want to sound pessimistic but the last 2 years was an awesome joy ride. I hope you guys had a good time, I had a blast. I am just hoping better minds will prevail so we don’t repeat the crash of the 80s. That was the dark ages…
I know that I still hope in my heart that Netherlands will go through but let’s be realistic here. They won’t and they don’t deserve to.
Not enough ambition.
Not enough drive.
Not enough team spirit.
It’s all old, stale, predictable, dead. Nevermind “plan B”, where the fuck was “plan A”?
BvM needs to resign along with Kuyt, Van der Vaart, Van Bommel, Mathjisen. We have to get new players with real thirst to win. We have to get a new head coach with a vision and understanding and passion for Dutch football. We have 2 years to prepare and the WC qualifying games are already starting in September. There is really not a lot of time to experiment and build here.
You know what I can say after the WC2010 and this EC? I’d rather we lost by playing beautiful football than go down like this. I really don’t care anymore. If we can’t win a trophy by staying true to Dutch football, then so be it.
Well let’s be honest … this generation with BVM went very close to winning the WC two years ago. Whether we played Dutch style or not is not important for me … when you win everything is forgotten and they praise you for the win. Look at Spain … everyone seems to forget that they lost the first match against Switzerland, and that they struggled against Paraguay and other teams. So let’s be fair and admit that this generation was very close to get the ultimate prize (even closer than the 1998/2000 generation which was the best since the 1970s). Ironically this same generation will have another chance during the next WC because most of today’s stars will still be in their prime or almost in two years time. Even though I doubt that any team in the world can challenge Brazil on their home soil. But maybe we make another final … two finals in a row will be an enormous achievment for Holland and its supporters, even if we don’t win it. Making a WC final brings a lot of respect and fame as well.
The challenge now is to find a new coach who can (a) replace those who will leave – MVB, Mathijsen and Kuyt probably; and (b) create a healthy balance between experienced players from this generation with new generation players like Maher, Narsingh, John, etc. In my opinion if the new coach is smart enough to achieve this right balance, he will have an impressive amount of talent at his disposal … and yes I beleive that we can at least challenge to reach the final again in Brazil!
If we are not gonna win, I absolutely do not want to make another final for the sake of respect. It would be a shame to lose a 4th final which would be unprecedented. I do not consider it a sign of respect to lose two finals in a row. That’s loser mentality.
mmm, everyone calls us losers already 🙂
so what if we lose one more final? At least we will have the pleasure of getting there 🙂
I see your point Sam. However reaching 2nd place is a very honorable position … Much better than being eliminated at group stage. Even though I want to see a WC win like all of us.
Although with such team and such spirit we won’t be able to beat portugal , still ,at least theoritically , a 2-0 win over portugal is not impossible at all .
The german have to play good against Denmark , cause simply if denmark wins and Portugal wins , the three teams will have 6 points and it will be dangerous for them .
i believe , BvM must play with new players .. unexpected .
perhaps using de jong aside with heitinga can be the key, de jong is a great tackler , fast player .
I’d also use boulahrouz experience to stop Ronaldo and nani on the right side .
Willems is still a young player , however , benching him after germany game can make us lose a player who can fill the left back spot in Oranje for the next 12 years .
I still remember when vlaar was named as a big candidate for our defense , some called him the new FdB , Van basten gave him a call-up against Italy friendly game .
the young guy scored an own goal , van basten dropped him later and he , Vlaar , didn’t progress as expected
So , i’ll start with willems and play with 2 holding mids who can defend , attack ,distribute the game and score goals .. Stroorman and Schaars !!
schaars is familiar with portugese football , can push the game forward , cover the left side with willems .
as for persie , he only played good for Oranje in 2006 when he was a left winger .. perhaps he should play in his old spot with oranje , so huntelaar can play as a CF .
Use Robben on the left may work better ..
My line-up for Portugal game is :
__________ Steklenburg ___________
____ Heitinga ____ De jong _______
Boulahrouz _______________ Willems
_______ Strootman ___ Schaars ____
Persie ____ Sneijder ______ Robben
_________ Huntelaar _______________
Who knows ..
I doubt BVM will make all those changes. I think he’ll go with the team that started the 2nd half. We need offense in this game more than anything.
Starting Boulah would be great. My concern is he will also bring past animosity back with these Portuguese players. We don’t need to change the match into another battle of Nuremberg from that 2006 quarterfinal game. That style of game suits them as they like physicality more than offensive rhythm.
My respect and expectations for VDW have greatly been lowered during this tournament. He is definitely one of the over-rated players. Maybe going to the World Cup finals and being automatic starter has made him complacent. He doesn’t defend well, he doesn’t move up to cause real damage or give support to Robben. He has been very ineffective.
@ Sam : It’d be great if we start with this line-up , however , i still prefer making some changes to the defensive line . it was just crap against Germany 😐 .
perhaps bommel as Libero who can push up , de jong as great tackler .. not sure actually .
I’ll feel really bad if Germany wins vs denmark and we lose to Portugal ” or even win with one goal difference ” .
actually , on paper , we have a big chance to qualify .
Just win 2-0 !!
just wondering how many teams lose their first two games in the group stage and have such a chance to qualify .
Oranje is literally lucky !!
try to be opportunistic and take the chance , please !!
Nobody mention siem de jong… i think he was a good player and good prospect and maybe dutch can have another brotherhood in the team
Here are some points of interest from fourfourtwo.com:
Clearly Lahm really neutralized Robben’s dribbling runs.
But to me, Germany just moved off the ball better throughout the game. Schweinsteiger and Ozil played as midfielders should, running, finding and creating space for attack. Even their center backs made forays into attack. And they played as a team.
Other than the first 15-20 minutes, Holland just played like a collection of talented individuals, each taking a stab at attacking but with very little help from the others.
Maybe it’s lack of fitness, maybe it’s lack of mental toughness, maybe it’s poor coaching. Whatever the reason, when under pressure, Holland’s players chose to rely on their individual talent rather work hard and play as a team.
Lahm and Robben know each other too well. It was good for Van Marwijk took him off.
I didn’t even know Kuyt came in. I saw him get into the game but he didn’t do anything whatsoever. Narsingh would have been better. Robben should have left at the 65th min. Not enough time for the sub to make any difference in that short amount of time.
Brazil is beatable. Maybe in two years they’ll be a much better team but this current generation is no where as talented as the last Brazilian generation that won the title in 2002.
Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Rivaldo etc
Neymar is the only top name I can think of and he hasn’t been playing in any of the big leagues in Europe yet. Julio Cesar, Dani Alves, Thiago Silva and Maicon will be there. Lucio at 36 would probably be too old. We’ll see how Hulk will do at Chelsea.
Robinho, Pato, Ramires etc were all hyped up to be the next great superstars but they haven’t yet lived up to the great standards left by their predecessors.
My point is that, yes Brazil is always Brazil. They will bring top talent to the tournament and the fact that it’s on home soil would be enormous pressure and motivation to perform. However, it seems like the old days of superstars that strikes fear into opposing teams seems to have calmed down a bit. A good team with good a coach, balanced youth and experienced players can beat Brazil. They’ll definitely be favorites but they are absolutely not what they used to be.
After two games Holland hasn’t played bad football. In fact its been entertaining and attacking like many of you guys were looking for in the WC2010.
Our defence sucks and that what happens when we push up the pitch and the defence forgets to come with. Thats a small change and if I can see it, so can Bert.
In all honesty this blog has become a big haven for negativity, so much so that I will read Jan’s posts from now on but as far as your comments – forget it. Everyone here is a bloody know it all. i know its not unicorns and rainbows right now but rally around your team for the love of Oranje.
Bert has been the best coach Holland has had in a long time. The stats speak for themselves and most of you want to throw him under the bus – to be replaced by whom: Van Basten? Hiddink? Advocaat? All these guys succked
I have been supportive of BVM a lot on this blog. I understood he wanted to bring balance to a football culture that was too obsessed with attacking and offense while not focusing enough on defense. He wants results more than tradition and style.
However, this team seriously lacked aggressiveness. I’m not talking about offensively. I’m talking about how much they run. How much they pressure the opponent. Their sense of urgency seems gone from what we say two years ago. Our defense was not great in 2010 but this year, it just lost all confidence. Every single goal we conceded this tournament has been due to defensive errors.
My biggest disappointment in BVM was not his system but the lack of team motivation, performance and not having a plan B when things went wrong.
I have also supported BVM for long periods but now I feel I can’t excuse him any longer. He is at fault for failing to take some risks and for not being creative enough. He simply relied on his WC2010 system without realizing that for example MVB is no longer at his peak, that Robben is not the same as in 2010 … He is amazingly sloooooow to take action. I’m watching Spain and I can’t help not appreciating the big difference in tactical quality compared to us. Its amazing how they still fight for every ball after all those successes. Our mental preparedness is extremely poor compared to them and Bert has to accept some responsibility for this.
You ever think there is a reason why we have always had more talent than most of the world and never won a world cup?? Because as you pointed out, our coaches have mostly sucked.
We havent played bad football? Robben shooting into the stands and nobody crossing the ball is playing well?
Defense forgets to come with? Its more than that, the coaches job is to motivate the players and i think he has lost that ability. The players dont press AT ALL, its not just the defense, its everybody, if we had pressed a LITTLE, that 1st goal would not have happened when Schweinsteiger was given 10 minutes to pick out Gomez.
The second goal was all on Steks falling before Gomez shot.
If you are happy with our boys losing every match and then leaving the tournament as long as we didnt play “bad” then we have very different standards. The REALLY good national teams sack their coaches when they dont perform…brazil, argentina, france, italy, england…
Before we burn BVM at the stake, a couple of things to compare. Not sure if you remember Euro 2004 in Portugal, however, the dutch coach was Dick Advocaat, and as a dick, chose to intentionally sit Patrick Kluivert throughout the tournament, in spite of going with RVN and Roy Makaay and pierre van hooijdonk, but never Kluivert, even as the dutch media, fans were screaming to play him. Advocaat did not, and rightfully so because he is the coach, give in because he is the one to make these decisions. However, BVM is not like that, he could have gone the route of Dick A. but instead is showing us that he is willing to make changes, sub out MVB, sub in VDV and make time for Huntelaar, in spite of what we bitch and complain for and whatever the dutch media says.
My lineup for Sunday against Portugal:
Sub in VDV, Afellay and Kuyt for energy
Sub out Mathijsen, is not good and is recovering from an injury, making him even worse, use Boulah for fire, passion and this may be his last game, let him fight and show the others what it means to chase and run with meaning.
What a goal…Andrea Pirlo
Why do you all insist on starting Steks?
We had 3 goals scored on us, 2 were VERY VERY soft goals that VDS would have saved. That second goal from Gomez, what did steks do? His timing was WAY off, honestly, these two losses should be placed on him.
I know it is tough to place on him but its true, look at the replay, steks went down before Gomez even shot!!!! And the Denmark goal went through his legs at the near post…come on!
Krul needs to start in goal.
Does nobody else see that Steks is the reason we lost these two games? Sure, your defense lets you down, but thats why there is a goalkeeper!!!
I have never been a big fan of Steks, ever since the game against Algeria i think after Euro 2008, he let in a shot from like midfield, his instincts are off.
Steks should warm the bench. Roma has ruined him.
All the debate between RVP and Huntelaar is lost on the fact that Steks sucked.
Do we remember why we did so well Euro 2008? VDS made like 4 ridiculous saves, which Steks would not have made, and from there we counter-attacked and scored…look at the video.
We NEED a good keeper because our defense sucks and we have two of the best keepers in the EPL on our bench. Yet we continue to play Steks.
He looks almost stoned or scared when playing in big games, i think he has poor positioning, poor reflexes and poor decisionmaking.
Krul has better decision making, better reflexes, is a much better shot stopper and gets fired up in the moment.
I know we are out of the tournament, but its not too late to make a change at the back.
Steks has been disappointing and was mainly responsible for Germany’s second goal, which he should have saved. It was not a difficult shot. That shot saved, we have a tie instead of a loss.
Another problem with Steks, which hasn’t been as bad this tournament, is that he likes to boot the ball upfield instead of distributing to his backline. At least that has improved, as it was a big problem against Spain where we would give the ball right back to the other side.
i disagree, steks a great player but it’s tough to clean up after a disappointing defensive unit… go watch the world cup saves he made again before coming to this conclusion… no doubt krul is a world class keeper but steks is #1
Is Robben really the best Dutch player since Cruyff? So says Martin Jol.
Further, and I hope Jan does an article on why sTeks should not start, the keeper is responsible for organizing the defense.
Remember when VDS had like 1000 minutes of cleansheets in the EPL? It is because of the confidence his defenders had in him and the way he organized his defense. STeks does not have these qualities, Krul DOES.
In sum, and i will rest after this, Steks is weak, Krul is strong, and we need a strong keeper. steks has always been overrated because (sorry to say) he has been Ajax #1, just like VDW overrated because he is Ajax #1.
Blew my mind reading the Volkskrant – the training camp was a 1,000 miles away from the games! You want to know why the guys looked tired and not sharp?
Well – they had to fly in, after training in a totally different place. Why on earth would you throw away the golden advantage of being able to play all games in the same stadium? Why not just train right next door?
Agree with lots of the suggestions – but that’s just baffling.
Who is responsible for that?
Just to bring to the basket what i just said, why isnt there MORE of an outrage for a change at the keeper position?
I just dont get it, we would have 2 points right now if not for Steks, maybe 4. The 2nd Gomez goal was a complete joke, and the Danish goal went right through his legs (not the first time hes done that in big games).
@Paul and Jason
I disagree. Yes, Steks should have done way better on Gomez’s 2nd goal. I blame that goal on him. However, Willems was mostly responsible for giving Gomez that space. He lost him and wasn’t close enough to apply any pressure.
I absolutely disagree that Roma has ruined him. How has Roma ruined him. You don’t like the Italian league? You don’t like the fact that he moved there?
He’s a goalkeeper. It doesn’t matter what league he is in. His job is to stop goals. I would understand for at outfield player you can say their system or style of play affected him etc…how exactly did Roma ruin him?
I’ve watched so many Newcastle games this past season. Yes, Tim Krul is a great keeper. He makes great saves. He also concedes a lot of goals that you can really say can be saved. Steks has the big tournament experience. That is something very special. Krul will get his chance but I think more experience is better. Changing goalkeepers at this time would not be a great idea. We shall see in the qualifers for 2014.
Bro, come on. Yes, Willems gave him too much space, it happens, and that is where the goalkeeper is supposed to pick up the defenders. Ive been watching the italy-croatia game and fact is that almost all the other keepers ive seen look stronger than Steks.
Why would changing the keeper now be bad? Poland did it with szechney after his sending off and Tyton came in and saved a penalty and had a great two games. You think Tyton is better than KRul? No way bro.
I dont know if Roma is at fault, i just dont think he has ever been that good, i have never felt confident with him in goal.
Agree with the site becoming negative – but if you lose 2 games – 3 games in a row if you count the last game against Sweden. Then you might ask – why isn’t this working?
On goal – I’d pick Krul. He had a great season with Newcastle – Stek was OK with Roma. Attack you have 2 players who had unbelievable seaasons – why wouldn’t you work on getting them both on the pitch? etc. The team really needed speed – so why on earth would you not take a fast defender from AC Milan?
Great core of players – and they have a shot – if they go all in. I’d ask JC to come in and give the inspirational talk.
What is this site supposed to look like.
“Great game guys, keep it up. We scored one goal and had some possession with some neat passes thrown in from time to time!”
No, we want to win. The only way to get better to analyze mistakes. When coaches and players look at hours of tape they dont look where they did things right, they look mainly on how to improve from where things did not go well.
And we are an extension of that process.
The truth is, there are so many flaws with this team, that it is tough to start. I think alot of people are in semi-denial, they know this team is not good, but just dont want to admit it.
Further, people on here love to give excuses to the team losing to Bulgaria, Munich, sweden…oh they didnt matter, they were friendlies, etc…denying the team has faded.
The realization of the players that they arent that good anymore is what sucked out the energy. What did give them energy in 2008 and 2010 was their belief that they are the best and still getting better. When you believe you are fading and getting worse, the entire energy collapses.
Poland had to make the change because the guy got a red card. It’s not like they had a choice. I’m sorry to disagree but I find Steks more calm. Krul is too jumpy at times. Steks is better at positioning in my opinion. Krul and Vorm tend to rely more on their reflexes to make up for their positioning. Vorm is a bit short for a goalkeeper.
I don’t blame Steks on the inabilities of our defenders. Mathijsen and Ooijer were bad defenders even when VDS was there. Goalkeepers mostly organize defense on set pieces like free kicks and corners. They can’t control defenders much while the ball is in play.
We just have horrible defenders. Steks can be more vocal and start cussing some people and be more assertive and angry. He has a lot to improve but I don’t think Krul right now should take over.
Yea i know but im saying after they got a new keeper it didnt affect the team defense negatively.
Steks has let in a lot of weak goals over the past few years, thats all im saying.
And i disagree, a goalie does have more control over defenders during the run of play then you allude to.
We do need to find a way to manufacture better defenders, just ONE good defender would help the other defenders get better, but it is like amateur hour back there.
When people saying bringing in Boula is an improvement you know you have problems.
There are no “ifs” or “buts”.. they lost fair and square… RvP scored all the goals he can score this season, but for Arsenal – we don’t know if Huntelaar will be better or not. Here’s what I know:
1- Players are isolated up front (Sneijder-Afellay on the left and Robben on the right. RvP is floating all over the place no where that benefits the team.
2- Defence is soft and slow
3- 4-2-3-1 does not work.
4- Robben is not the same
5- The players have no fight in them
6- MvB is too slow against fast teams
7- Team is too predictable
I hope they progress but I know the likihood is slim. I really doubt the Germans will do us that favor and even if they do win against Denmark, I can’t see us scoring two past Portugal and not conceeding. The defence is as good as swiss cheese and there is nothing we can do about it.
I think they should switch to 4-4-2 with De Jong playing instead of Mathijssen.
Dear Finnister its bigloss for the blog..we will miss you a lot.hope we will see in heaven..you were great man whom i never met…
I’m sorry but I disagree with the fading mentality of our players for the bad performance. RVP and Hunter had the most prolific seasons of their career. If anything, those two should have more confidence than any striker in the world right now. (Ronaldo and Messi are not strikers).
VDV had a great season with Tottenham. NDJ just won the PL title with ManCity. Heitinga, I don’t know how but was voted player of the year for Everton. VDW won the title with Ajax. Afellay should be hungry after spending so much time on the injured list. Willems should be the most motivated of all. Here’s his big chance to be noticed by the world which would open a lot of doors for him.
Sneijder had a rocky season but he did make some great passes which we expect from him. MVB, Kuyt and Mathijsen know this is the end of the road. The only one lacking confidence and self-esteem right now seems to be Robben.
I don’t think the problem for their lack of motivation was their belief that they are fading. It’s just not true for most of these players.
Good point about Robben not being the same.
The thing about wingers is that they slow down and become less valuable faster than other position players. Defenders can lose a step and still be effective, but not a winger. Robben can no longer get by a defender like he used to…which is where a player like Narsingh comes in.
Why bring him if not to try him? Wingers need to be fast and throw in crosses, when your winger does neither, its useless.
Robben was actually at his best playing not as a winger, but more as a RM, passing balls forward. He still has the ability to pick out a GREAT pass and has a wicked shot.
I am going to pray for huge portugal victory..that will coz the sacking of BVM and after that orange will have a great future….sorry guys …..if portugal beat us then we will have a compettetive team for brazil 2014
C’mon Tiju ! Let’s stand-by our team till the last second .
although i myself predict a loss to portugal , i still have hope in this team and those players .
actually i’ll be sad if we’re out ..
the same team that reaches the WC final gets eliminated from the group stage 2 years later .
The near post apparently likes Mario Mandzukic
I did not mean the players individually think they are fading, i meant as a team. 3-4 losses takes it toll on a team mentality and saps out some energy.
And the players big egos adds to it, they know how great they are, so they care a little less, i could be wrong.
Croatia is making a game of this btw…awesome game.
Paul, I know you are a PSV fan but can you explain to me how on earth Bouma got on the team? What about Strootman and even Willems? They all played for a team that showed no heart whatsoever all year round. Bert would have been better off choosing Anita and even van Rhijn. I also don’t think Stenk or VDW are hyped at all. VDW’s form has been up and down since the WC (I totally agree with you) but towards the end of the season he showed he was top class. He scored both Ajax goals away at Twente. As for Stenk, don’t forget he was injured most of the year. Always tough for a GK to come back to top form after such a scary injury.
Bouma i dont know, maybe they wanted his experience? I dont get it either.
Strootman is a great player, i disagree with you. He can rip shots, supply a great pass and tackle. Remember his goal when he volleyed the RVP pass?
Willems, well i have no idea how he picks him and not emanuelson, i agree totally, strange selection. More confusing is bringing a team of 23 and not using 8 of them!
Steks may not have recovered, even more evidence why he shouldnt start.
Agree wih Paul about strootman .
Stroot should play
Yes, Croatia has a good shot at progressing if they hold on. I rather see Italy win this game. They came in with so much adversity surrounding the team. Some big profile losses in recent friendlies. But they are able to play and give it their all for their flag, their fans and their country. Something our players need to learn from.
Hats off Croatia .. this is how ” Teams” play .
This is how ” Spirit ” should be .
Italy has really squandered a lot of chances last few minutes, they definitely are not very clinical, i doubt they make it to quarters, i think it will be spain and croatia
Croatia has always played as a team with a lot of spirit, something that i think balkan countries always play with.
Western european countries i dont think always have that fire and passion. Certain countries are always fighting, USA, Croatia, Serbia, Albania..
you are hoping for a big Portugal victory? What just because you don’t like BVM? Did you like Van Basten? Advocaat? Van Gaal?
Did any of them take you to within a grasp of lifting a WC trophy? If it wasn’t for Robben who chokes under pressure, he would have been the greatest Dutch coach of all time. Why? because he would have been the 1st one to bring home the holy grail of Dutch football.
Yes, he made a lot of mistakes in these two games. He could have done better with his substitutions but I don’t blame him for Vlaar, Heitinga and Mathijsen’s lack of defensive talent or RVP’s inability to score golden opportunities or Robben’s collapse of form.
This is not about personal hatered for coach. It’s about team. Never wish an opponent beats you. That is just wrong and unacceptable.
BTW, a 2+ goal against Portugal is not out of the question. We are not Andorra or San Marino.
Still think more than anything putting the camp so far away from the games explains a lot of flagging spirits.
And for Robben – it’s pretty easy to defend when you know the guy ain’t going to pass and will always try to cut inside. Also since he busts his gut to get open his legs are tired and his shots weak. He’s a fabulous talent – but a few simple dinks would be much more valuable.
Lastly – Oranje just needs to play for pride next game. Forget qualification – go out there with a full side and show what you can do.
Paul, I agree about Strootman. He is a great player and in fact I have had my eye on him while he was at Sparta and wanted Ajax to get him. But my point was that he did not have a good season and based on pure form, Anita was a better choice.
I too am impressed with Croatia’s spirit. This is the way we played 2 years ago. You can see from this Euro that except for 3 teams (Greece, Ireland and Czech republic) all the other teams can beat each other at any moment. Another point that has now become apparent (read it on AD) is that our team is totally unfit physically. Low, Olsen and the former conditioning coach from Ajax all agreed. By the 70th minute we are totally spent. Bert should have chosen players in top physical form. Wes and Nigel are ok but the others? I wonder.
>is that our team is totally unfit physically. Low, Olsen and the former conditioning coach from Ajax all agreed. By the 70th minute we are totally spent.
change that to 20th and we agree. Very sad. But problem is BvM has selected almost all the international players avail, sans Brouwers… The in house talent is like Jetro, just talent… At the moment… This team started breaking apart 6 months before the Euro. Not enough time to make meaningful changes. We could have a better showing but at the end of the day Joris/Mark/Dirk all crapped out at the same time.
Back in the 80s when we had a disastrous EK80, the collapsing started the day after the 78 final.. Less excuses then. We barely qualified too. But now, all these guys who crap out today were doing great till late 2011… Aside from BvMs mistakes, what could be possibly done?
He picks whatever is available from the clubs. He picked all the international guys (almost). Not saying he is the only coach good for the Oranje but what else could he do?
We asked Dirk to be benched, here comes Affelay. And?
We needed more new talent, here comes Jetro. And?
Joris sucks, here comes Vlaar. And?
The guy made most of the changes asked. He can’t wear his shorts and make up for Wiel, can he?
I agree with you totally. Routing for a bad defeat is ridiculous.
While BVM has a lot of blame, you are right that he cannot be responsible for our best defenders forgetting how to defend. That is true.
He cannot be responsible for MVB losing Schwiensteiger time and time again.
The team for WC qualifiers
VDW Heitinga De Vrij Pieters
Sneijder Strootman Emanuelson
RVP KJH (Robben/Ola John/Narsingh)
agree with your 2014 lineup except for strikers.. you can’t have 3 strikers who are on the wrong side of 30…
VDW Heitinga De Vrij Pieters
Sneijder Strootman Afellay (ola/Nigel/Luuk)
RVP / Van Wolf / Bas Dost (Hunter//Narsingh)
And to all of us on the blog, don’t forget we are getting Douglas for the first WC qualifying game. He will bring steel in the center of our defense.
I didn’t know that was a done deal.
I am not so sure either, i have seen him have some poor games for Twente, and as seen w VDW, doing well in holland does not mean doing well outside of holland.
I hope so. I asked a question about Douglas earlier and I didn’t see a reply. Maybe I missed it.
If he’s good enough for Oranje, how come he never got any call up for Brazil? I have seen him in a couple of games but I’m sure those of you who watch the Eredivise weekly know all about him.
In all honesty, just getting rid of Mathijsen and not having to play Vlaar itself would be a major upgrade to the defense. Hopefully, he moves abroad and plays at a more competitive league so we can really see how good he is.
you know guys , i still think Oranje misses Elia .
he would have changed many things with his speed , fitness shots and skills .. at least againsr Denmark .
one of the croatian defenders did a crazy sprint from his box to the middle of the field at the 95th minute of the match to try to get the ball from pirlo, he reminded of the those pretty ladies we had on field against the germans yesterday, they were trailing and did not have the energy to do pressing to get the ball!!!! our team became the total opposite of what total football is!!!!
So true , Alaa 😐 !
Do we have anyone who can replace Heitinga? Assuming Douglas takes Mathijsen’s place.
let’s not throw Johnny under the bus right away… He can be useful either as a “mentor”, sub or right back. Dougy if he comes in, can be paired with Peters. One of these two can become the leader of the back. Problem is this process takes time… So, in between let’s keep Heitinga who has some miles left.
BTW, I am pissed at Johnny too. But let’s think about it for a few weeks 🙂
agreed, Heitinga has had two bad games but is a good defender nonetheless.
If I am not mistaken, he was voted everton’s player of the year. He was one of the best defenders in the epl this year too.
He also plays defensive mid at Everton. People constantly forget that CB is not his everyday position
Torres stating for spain tonight ,
why not to start with llorente who is in a better shape ?
You see — Bert isn’t the only one who makes the odd decisions.
I guess I’m eating my words. Torres seems to have found his touch for the net again.
I hear Tiju is pretty good in the tackle, not sure about his nationality status though…
Ok boys, its been a pleasure, but i need to look for jobs, walk the dog, take out the garbage, etc before my fiance kills me.
Enjoy the games, ill be back later on.
come on, lets be realistic a little bit, this team was even uglier in 2010, the only difference is that we had all the luck of the world with us, and unfortunately because results sometimes make people blind and they dont see the big problems the team had, a lot of people just went happy with a final in the world cup ignoring the mediocre team we had!!!!
no need to remind how we beat denmark with an own goal, then a mistake from japan’s goal keeper on sneijder’s shot! then the crazy ball jabulani fooling julio caesar in the quarters! and the final what? only one on one for robben in 120 minutes????
here in this group just because the luck is not on our side and because these teams here are much bigger than japan or cameroon we see all the disasters and problems! and the funny part is that we coudl’ve beaten denmark by a big score few days ago, and then again all those problems could’ve been hidden!
ive been oranje since 1988, this is the most disgusting group of players we’ve ever had!!!! no respect for their fans!
Alaa, for sure in 2010 we had more determination, worked as a team and our mental fitness was that of a winning team. You could feel a certain level of confidence that the team was unbeatable. Do you think you can turnaround score against Brazil and reach finals of WC simply because you are lucky ? How did we lost all that in 2 years ?
Agree with AL, disagree with Alaa ….. in the quarter final of 2010 vs Brazil, it was NOT luck. When I watched that match, I remember clearly that I was very calm and confident they’d get back after being down 0-1. I could tell from the players body language and pressure they put on Brazil. Conversely, you started to see Robinho acting like a little b*tch after a soft tackle, etc.
Not seeing such drive this year, maybe a bit for the first 15-20 mins of both matches vs Denmark and Germany.
Thinking about the game vs. Portugal…
Ronaldo missed unbelievable opportunities. He’s under immense pressure. If I’m not mistaken he scored 60 goals for RM this year!
Could the game vs. Oranje be the one he’s been looking for? Would Heitinga and Mathijsen take him out of his misery?
We have to go with the lineup that started the 2nd half against the Germans. That will put more pressure on our defense. That game could be a high scoring game. Let’s hope we win by 2 games.
I hate being in such tough positions. Why do we make things so difficult for ourselves?
@n Alaa ,
I understand why you’re furious . i’ve been following Oranje since 98 , probably the Germany game was the worst game i’ve ever seen .
if he “bvm” had the ball, with all the disasters this team has done so far, he would make dramtic changes to the line up!!!
wiel-vdv-robben-bommel are to be dropped for good!!!
anyway bvm is the big problem of this team! he killed the traditional dutch style and a lot of people unfortunately got convinced by his style just because he got the final of the wc with 100% luck!!! people started saying we dont care how to play just get results! here u go he gives ugly playing with no pressing at all, and he loses!!!!
@ SamDC :
I Believe Ronaldo will find all his scoring abilities with mathijsen if he played like against Germany , lol .
Sad but true .
The Netherlands are destined to beat Portugal
The Netherlands are destined to beat Portugal
For once in my life, I believe in “Jesus”!
HUP HOLLAND HUP!
trust me my friend, before van mawrwijk, if any dutch fan ever dared to say lets play the way this team plays now, he would’ve been sent to jail:)!
with this guy everything changes now!!! ugliness all over!!! cant wait till he gets fired and we go back to the basics! i dont care if we dont win like what happened in 1998 or 2000 but at least u had a team that made u happy and that played beautiful and got to the semis! thats better than this ugly team!
and whats driving me crazy is robbens reaction when he got subbed yesterday!!!! he got madddddd! come one robben why did u get mad? because ur effect on the game was ZERO!!!! what a mentality and what egos!!! i would understand the egos if those guys were winners but they are bunch of losers! what did someone like robben win in hiw whole career????
I agree with Jesus, Netherlands have to do something right
Surely the Netherlands can’t lose three in a row, in any case the team will have to rebuild. No use crying over spilled milk
No need to kill yourself over what should have been. Turn those frowns upside down Alaa and Mohammed
we have lost so many heartbreakers with your favorite style of play. I don’t blame BVM for trying something different. It worked. You call it luck or whatever but Spain had luck also. They were lucky against Chile. Against Paraguay and also against Oranje in the final. If Robben had scored, I doubt you would be saying the things you are saying.
Spain just scored. Seems like Ireland will be the first one going fishing this summer.
whatever happend , I still think BvM has shown something very important to the fans and to any coach who’s taking over his job with Oranje .
It’s the mentality that Oranje has always been lacking .
He could “implant” the winning mentality in the players in 2010 , only things didn’t work in this Euro with the big egos in the team .
He’s no rinus michels or Cruyff , but in the end .. he just did the same achievement .
Thanks You Bert , but also to be honest , i think it’s time to make some changes .
We start games quite well.
We have confidence to pass the ball, to probe and press.
We lack a bit of invention and pace, but we do have players who can pick a pass in the blink of an eye.
We’re still, despite the form, a decent team, all things considered. We’re perhaps not good enough to survive a group of death, but we may well have fought our way out of a weaker pot.
I’m not giving us any excuses – after the bright openings, we have looked out of ideas around the 20 minute mark and that’s when the rot sets in.
So, in theory, despite the awful 4231 with two defensive mids, we are at least showing some initial purpose. I can credit BERT with that at least.
Had our shots been on target, and had a few gone in, you never know. It seems Bert’s idea was to go for an early domination/ goal – knowing his older players would then play that extra yard with adrenaline and confidence.
We often bamboozle teams and score 2 rapidly in succession, but rarely sustain this type of invention, especially in major games.
That’s a worry.
It all means Bert’s crappy plan could work if the strikers had scored, but sadly Bert was so blinkered he didn’t even have a back up plan either. At this level, unforgivable.
See, Willems and VDW just aren’t good enough to link up with the wide mids Robben and Afellay. So our play breaks down, they pass back to defence, back to Stekelenberg, he passes the ball forwards and we start again in our own half. Then someone flicks a ball over the top and maybe we get a runner going. There’s no movement off the ball. There are no groups of players all coming in to receive possession – little triangles, etc. The players are almost scared to assist in case they make a mistake. It’s all so predictable and easy to defend against.
Any team can stifle our wings – and leave Sneijder out numbered in midfield. In fact, against Germany, Sneijder was outnumbered 3 to 1 in midfield!!
When we did pass wide, the wingbacks didn’t link up. The opposition can then easily move one of the THREE midfielders and double up the marking on our wide mid.
Game was stifled. We then relied on a solo effort.
Even when the opposition press us, there is never hunger or pace to hit them on the break. That infuriates me.
No plan B
Bert is let down by his stubborn defensive 4231.
He hasn’t given enough time to younger players – the odd five minutes here or there is hardly fair. He can’t label our young players inexperienced because he’s the one responsible for that. He’s forced himself into picking the same old faces in the same old places.
Of course Narsingh and Willems and Vlaar and Buttner and the like aren’t ready – they haven’t played enough. Where do we go from here??? Bert hasn’t just fucked us now, he’s fucked our next generation too!
We relied on good fortune and good reputation in the past few years. Those are gone.
Now Bert MUST go too.
Let’s say we start brightly again against Portugal and score. Let’s say somehow we win and by some fluke even make it through. The way I feel right now, Bert could win us the whole damn thing and I STILL want him to step down.
I’m just so fed up with the negativity – on football pitch and forum post alike.
This is not the Holland I grew up with in the 70’s.
I may be stuck in my ways, but I can remember some beautiful games.
I hate posting teams – seems so pointless – and it’s impossible at this level to properly evaluate players with little to no international experience already! 🙁
But damn it, from our current squad, my team would look like this:
Van Der Weil, Heitinga, De Jong, Willems
…Sneijder, Van Persie, Van Der Vaart
…Narsingh, Huntelaar, Robben
Bench: Afellay, Strootman, Schaars
And I tell you something, I’d have them motivated too.
Then again, what the hell do I know? Nothing we say or do makes any difference. In these days, in truth, I have never felt further from my beloved Oranje.
One last legacy.
@Samdc, true instead with him we did not win anything plus ugly football!! Unless losing the final is considered winning.
we didn’t lose the final because of him. We lost because Robben missed two wonderful chances. I could care less how ugly we played. In 2004, we played the way like. Greece played as ugly as you can think of. In the end, they enjoyed their glory, we went home enjoying our beautiful style.
2006, we played the style you like. Italy parked the bus and played Mourinho football. They added #4 to their collection, we left with nothing.
I don’t think its fair to blame Robben. The reality is he’s are only player that can blow by defenders in a blink. Ronaldo shit the bed yesterday and despite being a lady boy, he’s still one of the most dangerous players in the world as is Robben when he’s on form.
Plus Germany is all his Bayern mates, they know his tendancies, and they had a guy waitin inside all game in case he blew by the defender when he slices in to the left.
The whole formation and BVM choices in starting 11. Why the hell would he start defensive mids when we had to freakin win! Its so oxy moron to even have put huntelaar and VDV in. Because it makes him look stupid in the sense tthat whatwas he thinking in the begining that were gonna play for a tie! Then your down so now we have to play are goal creators! Stupid!!
You don’t go to war with your hand gun and then once you get shot twice you say ok I’m breaking out my machine gun now!
Spain are just amazing .
the play easy entertaining football , honestly i want to see Oranje playing like them .
just watching them – there is ALWAYS support for every player – always a triangle… ALWAYS.
Someone once said “Football is simple, but the hardest thing to do is play simple football.”
Germany’s goals yesterday were simple. They recognized, moved into and exploited the available space.
They didn’t depend on one player winning a 1v4 and swerving in a shot from 25 yds.
When the Dutch players have supported each other and made runs off the ball, they’ve have success. When they’ve try to go solo, they have not.
There’s no reason Holland can’t beat Portugal and have a chance to advance. They’ve just got to work together and keep moving and keep it “simple”.
“There’s no reason Holland can’t beat Portugal and have a chance to advance. They’ve just got to work together and keep moving and keep it “simple”.”
Dream on bud
I’m serious. Denmark could barely string together three passes in their first game without putting the ball out of play. Germany has looked less than stellar in its two outings — their goals against Holland (other than Gomez’s nice turn) could have been executed by my son’s U11 team. Portugal has been extremely erratic and Ronaldo has not performed at all under pressure. And according to FIFA, those three teams are ranked in the top 10 in the world.
Obviously Holland has been underwhelming (if they have been any sort of whelming at all), but amazingly they still have a chance to move on.
My point was, Germany should be able to handle Denmark, and there’s no reason that Holland can put two up against Portugal if they play together as a team.
*can’t put two up*
Ireland can’t keep the ball with them more than 20 seconds i think .
i havn’t seen casillas till now !
Aye, they might not be able to keep the ball, but at least they’re trying to play with passion and heart unlike a certain Holland team i was watching last night…
yes, lack of movement is our biggest problem. Players just are not running!!! I see a lot of them walking and let whoever is closest to the ball do the tackling.
I wanna see the distance covered from each player. These days they have that GPS tracking things they put in their shoes so we know how fast and how long each player was running.
Players need to be held accountable. If RVP slacks off, he should be subbed. If Robben is wasting chances and not listening to instructions, he shouldn’t start. If VDV is coming in and just becomes a ghost, we need to bring in someone else as sub instead of him. He can cry and moan all he wants. He has annoyed me the most. Doesn’t do sh*t and he goes out there and says he must start.
I believe ‘professor’ Wenger uses this exact same technique to explain to his players why they are subbed when they are. As the book Soccernomics quotes, Berkamp was on the receiving end of it many times after Arsene said “Look, Denis, after the 70th minute your speed drops off, that is why you are taken out…”
Ireland defends much better than us. This spain would beat us 4-0 easy.
We easily have the worst defense in the tournament. Maybe in europe, other than the minnows, although i bet Litchenstein defense is close.
If Holland had half the spirit the Irish have we wouldn’t be in this position right now… especially in the first game against Denmark..
In Football, it’s easier to defend than to score. That’s why most weaker nations are just able to defend but find is so difficult to score. I just don’t understand how our players just are so incompetent when it comes to defense.
This is the oranje I love:
Not only came back once from being down, but twice, to eventually win the game. They kept fighting till the end.
Even though they lost in the semis against Italy in an epic match, they put on a tremendous and entertaining show and ONLY lost due to luck. Not to lack of power, not to lack of passion, not to lack of vision, not to lack of determination. Only luck.
I was devastated after they lost to Italy in EC 2000 because I felt they were robbed a win. I was devastated in the loss against Denmark and Germany for a different reason. Because I didn’t see the eagerness to win, nor the dutch flair, nor the determination to win.
Can they still make it to the quarter finals? I only believe in miracles when I see one.
This is the oranje I love:
Our 90s golden generation! Never gets tired of watching them ….. see how Kluivert finished, how Iceman passed, how fast Bolo Zenden was squeezing between defenders.
They might not win anything but they surely won the hearts of many (Dutch or not)!
Netherlands 5-0 Bulgaria
The Jong Oranje claimed their second 5-0 win in four days to go three points clear of Scotland at the top of Group 10 with only two matches remaining.
What formation are they using with this team?
Here is the starting line-up that was used:
1 Jeroen Zoet (GK)
2 Kelvin Leerdam
3 Stefan de Vrij
4 Bram Nuytinck (C)
5 Daley Blind
6 Jordy Clasie
7 Georginio Wijnaldum
8 Leroy Fer
9 Genero Zeefuik
10 Marco van Ginkel
11 Yanic Wildschut
I watched the whole match. The scoreline was a lot generous than reality. The quality of play in Jong Oranje wasn’t all that great, but Bulgaria did suck real bad.
On paper it was 4-3-3, but I think it was more of a 4-2-3-1. Zeefuik is the lone striker. This guy has no football technique what-so-ever, but one thing he did exceptionally well was holding up the ball. Amazing that he could receive ball from difficult angles, took control and release it to someone else. Wildschut was a poor wanna-be winger. No speed, no ball control, can’t shoot. Wijnaldum was probably the liveliest of all attacking front line. But he had the Afellay-syndrome, running extremely fast with head down and closed eyes only to bump to somebody in front of him. Needs to improve decision making significantly before talk about him getting back to Oranje. Otherwise he is just another Lens.
The playmaker was Van Ginkel.. I think he will have a good career. Not a world-beater like Sneijder, but he can be useful in senior Oranje. The two “defensive” midfielders were supposedly Clasie and Fer. But they did a lot more than just sitting back and knocking the ball around (that is De Jong or Van Bommel). Both Clasie and Fer were very involved in going forward. I think this is why Jong Oranje won the game, they were just simply outnumbering Bulgaria defense. I wish Van Marwijk took a note from this match. Solid defense. Decent likelihood that De Vrij and Nuytinck will be drafted up to senior Oranje after this Euro. Again, neither is world-beater, but they were very serviceable and couldn’t be worse than the likes of Bouma or Boulahrouz.
Clasie could be as good as Sneijder
Clasie should be in this EC: Clasie and Strootman as holding midfield instead MvB and NdJong
UEFA’s website has the stats for each game:
Obviously aimless running isn’t meaningful, but FYI, the following are the distances covered by the Dutch players in meters:
Van der Weil 11516
Van Bommel / VDV 11236 (Van Bommel 4936, VDV 6300)
Robben / Kuyt 10973 (Robben 9610, Kuyt 1363)
Van Persie 10843
Afellay / Huntelaar 10716 (Afellay 5336, Huntelaar 5380)
De Jong 10561
Here are the Germans:
Muller / Bender 11353 (Muller 10959, Bender 394)
Ozil / Kroos 11316 (Ozil 9719, Kroos 1597)
Gomez / Klose 11012 (Gomez 8682, Klose 2330)
wooww, tks for putting it up. I love looking into these small details. It shows that Van Bommel just decided to “park his bus” hehehe’
The irish are only down 2-0 v spain, which has had a million chances, the germans had about 3 chances, 2 went in…its clearly the keeper
Did u see the 1st goal Torres scored? That’s a blunder by Shay Givens.
Actually didnt see it, but he redeemed himself with a ton of great saves…
irish are falling apart and getting tired…spain look GOOD
Watching Spain toying with the Irish defence makes me very very sad indeed.This is our brand of football..The confidence,the counter-attacks,the passes,the one-two’s…. precision at it’s level best. We have the potential to do the same but…..
Like I said in my previous post,I want a new team to be built around Sneijder..the guy is a beast!!! Give him the skippers armband,get Rijkaard at all costs,bring on some new faces,gel them into the system and bring back the ‘sexy’ 4-3-3 formation.
BTW, I want info on Davy Klassen and Jurgen Locadia..future prospects for the national side?? Alex???
Spain up 4-0
Just adjust the tint on your TV screen to make their red jerseys look orange…
haha…spain look incredible, best team in the world by far, irish fans are chanting much louder though…gotta fucking love that!!!!!
THE big difference is that spain is constantly pressing on the ball, and we did that in the WC, that was how we played, constant pressing, and then this tournament, we dont press, we just let the other teams have possession…why?
How can we explain how or why we just stopped pressing on defense? i just dont get it.
Irish defense just couldn’t keep up. Just look at both Torres’ goals and the one Fabregas scored.
something surreal about the irish fans cheering and singing while their team is owned by spain…dont know what it is, but its great.
this was the most beautiful game yet… The play of Spain so souvereign and the singing of Irish fans… beautiful, almost teared up here
It does make me sad to see how far above us on every level spain is, they play how we should play and just are not capable of playing.
Interesting to see how high up Pique pushes and gets involved, i mean, he is incredible. We dont have the talent or the cohesion.
A large factor may be that the team is mainly barcelona/RM and they have such an understanding.
A big difference is to note when they get subbed, they dont bitch or moan, they take a seat. Fabregas came off the bench twice and scored twice, with SMILES.
Yet robben does nothing, gets subbed and complains. I cannot wait until we dont have to see his complaining face anymore.
Points for this. WELL SAID. The humble spanish players are joy to watch. The Dutch players act like they won 10 trophies in the last year alone!!!
just to be fair to robben – he didn’t complain when he got subbed – he actually was trying to save time by not running across field and took the short exit from his side of the field.
Speaking about horrible defences, how about Ireland?
They actually did well first half…but how can you keep with 800 passes? 80% possession? You eventually lose focus and lose your legs.
I like that Spain plays a little different than Barcelona,Spain takes a more chances and pushes forward more than Barca, less ticki tacki, more drove to the goal.
Sure would be interesting to see if Cruyff could persuade Guardiola to take over the Dutch national team. The circle would then be complete…
We dont have enough talent for Pep to take over. The spain system works because of the sound defense, Pique and Arbeloa, and to a lesser extent Ramos, are miles above any defender we have and they get involved.
Can you imagine Matijsen pushing to midfield with the ball. HA…and when is he going to buy a comb! His hair is always a mess!
It would be an interesting new challenge (at the international level) and an opportunity to return to his “roots”. Might at least be worth an inquiry by JC…
In any case, let’s hope Holland takes up their current challenge on Sunday and puts on a quality display against Portugal. There at least remains a glimmer of hope.
With regards to Spain, everyone looks good shadow boxing. Against a greater opponent, they are not that great.
Spain has the benefit of many players playing together for quite some time.
The problem are the players. Let’s face it some are not good enough and worse some think they are better than they actually are (Robben, Afellay, VDV). If they actually listened to the coach’s instructions and did their jobs, one of which like Sneijder hinted is to shutup for the team’s sake or PASS or DEFEND, Oranje would not be here right now. You are all clamoring for this unproven talent or that unproven talent to play because surely opponents are just tossers. That’s probably what the players think too, the other team not as good as ME. All a bunch of Gomezs! BVM did what he could with these egos.
The game yesterday, if BVM changed the lineup, don’t lie to yourself, it would have been worse. You can blame MVB for the defensive lapses, but he had to take care of Khedira and it was Sneijder who lost Schweinsteiger twice. De Jong was busy with Ozil all game. You can forget about Robben or Afellay tracking anybody. That’s how it was lost, trying to do everything as individuals and complete abrogation of responsibility. Kuyt for Robben was too little too late.
I mean you saw Gomez a slow lumbering CF of all people helping defend Robben. Can you imagine Robben doing that? For the first goal you saw so many Ornage shirts just standing round becausae hey it’s not my job I am an attacker not a defender.
And you all wonder why they could not keep up the initial dominance. That was just individual brilliance scaring the Germans for all of 10 minutes each half. They were in control and if it wasn’t for the (38C) heat 2-1 would have been instead 6-2.
VanP, I think I agree with you. After some serious thinking I now believe that the players we have are just average and one dimensional with very few exceptions. And maybe BvM is doing what he can with this bunch. I blame him however for not trying to replace a few of them in time. He has been short sighted at best.
This team would have been embarrased if not for the mercy of germans after 2-0. We made Gomez look like a superstar for god’s sake.
Look at the fighting spirit of Croatia, a bunch of totally unknown players who nobody knows who they play for. Look at the masterful and humble play of spanish. I find it very funny that some people here are concerned whether we can beat Brazil in 2014. Gosh, even our fans are delirious. Right now this team can be beaten by any team in this tournament.
Obviously I hope we can do the imposible but if we can’t make it out of the group I want these girls to get embarrased by Portugal. Maybe then they will realise how low they have fallen.
Van Persie, Sneijder, Huntelaar, Robben are far from average players. That is class no matter what you make of it. Afellay has not played enough to be on the level he can be on. Besides, he’s not a left winger, he can do nothing with his left leg besides give shit crosses, he is.. like Robben.. on the wrong side.
Defensively De Jong and Heitinga are alright on club level, besides that Van Bommel used to be a good player, Willems will be a good player, V.d.Wiel used to be a top talent. Mathijsen is over the hill. Defensively it’s turned from alright into average to poor. But to say we only have average players is too far.
We have some of the best players in the world, and then some very average ones yes. But that is where the nuance should be.
Bert van Marwijk capitulates
The translation is goofy, but the title says: “We’ve learned some things, maybe things need to be done differently”
Yeah, too little too late for BvM. Amazing that everyone could see it except him.
The second part – Maybe things need to be done differently is NOT BVM but Sneijder !
Interesting comments by the dutch physiologist of Russia.
Just out of shape. Which is weird considering all EK players have come off a long season, not just the Dutch. He cites the travel, but mainly something is wrong with preparation. He doesn’t quite give his judgment though.
there is definitely something wrong there, everyone can see it. The team collapses after the first 20. Hey, if you have done any sports you know the legs give up first and then the spirit 🙂
Something is up with these guys, especially the backbone triplet Joris/Mark/Dirk… They just seem spent man, WTF.
Could betting or match-fixing be involved? Some investigation like that or similar needs to be done. Or was it some form of revolt against the coach?
Either way, these sissies should be thankful that they will be returning to Holland after they finish their games and not to a place like Colombia.
Undoubtedly this is the worst team of this Euro. They will even lose to Ireland/Greece today.
Irish players have been on holiday for the past week. There are limits to the term criticism, there is such a thing as going too far. Please keep it realistic.
I am beginning to believe that the Dutch team members are in denial. I thing that this match against Germany was the worst I have ever seen them play. The German coach, after a while, was eating on the sideline and playing with a ball-boy, as if this were a scrimmage with a local college team. The Germans had no fear of us, nor respect. Our defense, especially our central defenders, was AWFUL! The team shape kept changing, no one was ready to receive the famous Dutch “in front of the goal” passes, some of our midfielders have become “punks” including van Bommel and no offensive player every became a serious threat.
van Marwyck complains about shape, about the team falling back, about the low number of players going forward–this is what coaching is all about. One again, he did not have them prepared, either mentally or physically. This seems to be a tired, dis-spirited group of men who at best are playing mediocre soccer. FIFA # 1 in August, 2011–#50 by July, 2012. They will not beat the Portuguese, will leave the tournament without a victory and perhaps only one goal. I am sad for this team that I like so much. I wonder–what next?
Germans don’t fear anybody, even if they lose a game they don’t care because they don’t make a fuss about it. They have a strong mentality and that is not just on the football pitch. They think like machines, for them everything is repairable and once its repaired they just move on.
For me it’s very simple. This generations is full of divas and too many egos. I hope they win against Portugal and shut my mouth because I really expected so much from them!.
I don’t care if we lose but losing the way we did last night was disgusting.
We miss Davids, F. de Boer, players who inspire the whole team.
Stop about the ego’s already, theres not enough ego!! not enough confidence! there are no diva’s. At the most a few overestimate themselves, but that is the biggest cliché ive ever heard. The extent of the problems cant be covered by a simple term like ego’s.
I totally agree with Alex. We saw a crying Sneijder yesterday on Dutch telly. They are not too cocky. They are probably not good enough
anyone read this;
.. do any of you guys feel like sneijder deserves to stay at the euros and play for another team just this one tourney while the others pack their bags??
.. do any of you guys feel like sneijder deserves to stay at the euros and play for another team just this one tourney while the others pack their bags??
YES! He deserves much more than being betrayed by lack of efforts and energy and skills from his co-workers. He is like the Pirlo or the Schweinsteiger for the Oranje.
And if MvB is not starting against Portugal (I surely hope he will not), Sneijder should wear the armband. Not VdV, not RvP, not Robben.
I think the biggest thing we learned from this Euro is that Robben is done. We knew our defense sucked, we knew it. But we did not know the extent to which Robben had lost it.
He simply cannot beat a defender anymore, simple as that. He is too slow. It happens to wingers, all players begin to slow down around 27, we will soon see it happen to CR7 and Messi in a few years.
He cannot beat a defender so he predictable cuts inside and fires into the stands, and when its on target, is lamely to the goalkeeper.
Robben used to be one of the best in the world, but he is no more. Not as a winger anyway. if he can be used more as a RM then that is a different story. His passing is great. But, again, the wild card was robben and he has failed the test. If we are to play with a winger, he needs to be fast and take on opponents.
Please Paul, this is a load of nonsence. Robben is a great winger… LEFT WINGER !!! not a fucking right winger. See unlike Messi, Robben can do fuck all with his right leg. Hence he never goes around and crosses on the right. And if all you do is cut inside, opponents just set up their defence accordingly. Robben is still a lethal winger, he just has been playing on the wrong side of the pitch for far too long..
He is not a Right winger, nor a Right midfielder, he is a left winger and that is the place he should have been playing all season. That is where he grew to be one of the worlds greatest wingers.. Do not confuse mispositioning and tactics on the player. If you put a player on the wrong spot and he fails.. you assume its the player?? or is it the position.
I’m 100% assured that it is the latter. Robben is far more effective on the left, everyone knows he’s just gonna cut in from the right anyways. His speed is almost useless for that because the centre is usually crowded.
The only thing you can conclude is that Van Bommel is done for !!!! If anyone.
Please have some restraint when it comes to wingers and strikers, those are the hardest positions to play and you depend so much on the rest of the team.
By the looks of it, van Bommel was done a couple months ago. I’m sure he’ll be fine at PSV but in Oranje he should have hung them up after the last Sweden match.
What I am seeing is criticism cutting wood on a few bits, but then veering off into the wrong direction.
It begins with the entire system of play, the players who are in the starting line up and what the coach does, after that comes what the players on the pitch make of it, its easy to conclude both of these elements failed.
Ill elaborate sometime.
guys, are you serious?
Ranked #1 in the world earlier this year….
In the World Cup Final for the first time in 32 years!
Playing Productive, aggressive football…
Destroying Opposition in Qualifiers with near-flawless records….
I agree mistakes have been made and some of our stars are aging but there is NO way you can pin this on Bert or or Steks… Our defense was FINALLY exposed…. Thanks to our coach and our amazing keeper we patched it up for a long time…. and now we will need to fix it… but we should be proud of our achievements and build on it. not give up… you have to be kidding me saying that we should sack the coach or swap Krul for Steks… Van der sar had Stam and STILL never made it to a final…. please, I am just as frustrated, and disappointed..i watched every f**cking game since 2004 and know the potential of our team…. We should make Sneijder our captain and build for the WC in Brazil:
note: you can’t have 3 strikers who are on the wrong side of 30 for the next tourney…
VDW Douglas De Vrij Pieters (Heitinga/Vlaar)
Sneijder Strootman Afellay (ola/Nigel/Luuk)
RVP / Van Wolf / Bas Dost (Hunter/Narsingh)
Well, where to start?
Nobody in this blog is happy and certainly I am very pissed off as well. I think we had a very easy group to qualify to the tournament and Van Marwijk thought the team was at the same level as in WC 2010 but the difference is that in WC 2010 some players such as Robben and Sneijder had the best year of their careers and for this Euro 2012 they arrive with a very bad year. Robben is not done, he simply isn´t at his best level and Van Marwijk should know that but we don´t have many wingers to use.
Whatever happens against Portugal, Oranje has to be rebuilt from the back…We need a completely new team back there. I won´t say names´but as many of you have added, in the Eredivisie there are good prospects that are ready to replace specially Heitinga and Mathijsen.
I mean, all the goals we have received have been gifts from our defence and central midfielders. I noticed that in the second half vs. Germany without one of the holding mids we played freely. Yes, at times there were more spaces but we created more.
I am not optimistic we will beat Portugal by two goal difference but it´s crunch time and Van Marwijk should try some surprises and crazy stuff like this line up which I think can produce something interesting…
Kuyt (Right back who can defend and CROSS OK)
Schaars (It´s time to give Willems a break, he is not ready yet)
De Jong (Right midfielder)
Sneijder (As number 10 with a free position)
Strootman (Left midfielder)
Robben (In the left)
Van Persie (In the right)
When Kuyt crosses Van Persie will switch to a more central position behind Huntelaar and Sneijder free in the middle with Strootman recovering balls and De Jong too. We will be playing a 4-3-3 style of play getting rid of Van Bommel, Van der Wiel and Willems. Central D is a liability but it´s what we got but with this line up it can result in something different because the full backs are more experienced, have more tackling and positioning even though they are not full backs, can cross better and will provide a lot of support to central d. Strootman is better recovering the ball than VDV and up front with Robben, Hunter and Van Persie.
Said all this, if this team has courage and remembers history, they shall know Portugal had the best from Oranje and eliminated us from WC 2002, beat us in EC 2004 and then again in WC 2006 in Nuremberg…We are still have a chance but if we were eliminated today just to take revenge from Portugal would be enough to show and play that game.
Perhaps we need to play in the black jersey to start scoring!
And one thought…Oranje has always had trouble when starts losing a game and in this Euro the missed opportunities have resulted in Oranje trying to turn around the game. A very different story would have been if Van Persie had scored at least 50% of all then chances he has had in this Euro, for example, that first opportunity against Germany in the first ten minutes of the match.
Anyway, just a thought.
We all saw what went wrong.. its everything, the players, our bleak stars who failed again and again, some players who were too old , some who were too tired, other who were out of form and some were both. Others were selfish, and others were just untalented. We saw they could not work for eachother and did not fight for eachother, no matter who did what and where, really all the players failed in their positions, all of them, even Sneijder.
We must continue with more eager talents build around Sneijder and forget vd Vaart and Bommel. We have Maher. His skill a nd vision is better than vd Vaart and he has more willpower, certainly more speed and is young and hungry. He is not overweight like vd Vaart. We have van Rhijn who will soon surpass vd Wiel or has already. We have Gouweleeuw who can try to grow to oranje level in the coming 2 years. We have Luuk de Jong who has equal technique as Persie and is a true footballer.
Nobodys inetrested in a loser, all we can do is make a new team and do better. I do have a hard time believing this team can win from portugal.
The blame towards RObben is unjust and delusional.
WE did not play with 100% heart and played scared. Also the fact that we had to win played right into the trap of the germs.
I respectfully disagree for a few reasons.
Yes Robben is a natural left winger, but, when he was in his prime, with BM, etc, he was still outstanding on the RIGHT. He consistently would dribble OUTSIDE or fake inside, being unpredictable.
You are telling me that on the left he will be that much different? His speed and acceleration will increase? When goes on the left it is easier for him to put in a cross, but he never puts in crosses to begin with!
I dont think it has ANYTHING to do with Left v. Right to be honest with you, his problem is decisionmaking, shot selection and right now, confidence. He has low confidence taking on defenders and high confidence shooting, which i have no idea why.
The players lack heart, which only a coach can change…its true…a new coach. Look at chelsea, as soon as AVB went out and MAteo came in, they did better, THEY WON THE CL AND FA CUP with a new coach!!!
Remember what Gus Hiddink did for chelsea too? Turned the season around.
A coach can, and it is his job, to motivate players and prepare them.
I think this team is good enough to make it to qualifiers. We should have beaten Denmark and tied Germany. Instead, we had no energy, the wrong goalkeeper, a poor striker, and an early flight home.
dutch dream… after these euros it would be amazing if you can regularly update us on the likes of all those young hopefuls… i would love to see how they are progressing and who will step up for orange… maybe even regular Future of Oranje blogs by Jan…. that would be cool…
and we really need to go for it in Brazil because Sneijder really should win a trophy, he is a legend in my eyes…
I REALLY like your formation!
Strootman has a wicked right foot, have you all seen his shooting/passing? Maybe some dont realize just how talented he is. I remember with Sparta he did some ridiculous things!
That is a very balances formation, with experience at the back, strength, yet offensive power in the middle, and a mix of poaching and finesse up front.
I like it!
I recognize that Holland hasn’t played nearly as well as any of us had hoped.
However, had anyone told you that in the final match of the group stage, Holland would need to beat Portugal and Germany would need to beat Denmark in order for Holland to advance, I don’t know that anyone would have found that to be an absurd scenario.
The fact of the matter is if Holland can score 2 goals More than Portugal and Germany can beat Denmark, then the Dutch get to keep playing.
Had you asked me before the tournament began whether I thought Holland could beat Portugal by two goals, I would have been fairly confident of that.
So here we are, in that exact situation. We underperformed against Denmark and we lost to our archrival but the quality of play has not been that bad; the problem has primarily been missed opportunities.
Sometimes it takes time to gel and like I noted in prior posts, Germany has the advantage of playing with almost the entire Bayern club side, as does Spain with Barcelona and Real Madrid.
Before we dismiss this entire generation of players, let’s see what they can accomplish this Sunday against a team we’ve expected to beat all along.
I am not sure why the Dost-Narsingh combo was completely disregarded by BVM.
People say Dost only scored 27 goals because he got all the assists from Narsingh…who is DUTCH! Iniesta and Xavi are much much better when they play together, so bringing in Dost and Narsingh…why not?
It could have been a good surprise for the opposition who dont know these two, and scared the old guard making them fight for their positions…
Mark it down, Dost-Narsingh…although now that Dost is gone to Germany, I hope the lack of service doesnt hurt him too much
@ paul i agree with your assessment of robben but i disagree with your other points. how can you pin the grand misses of RVP and the horrible defense on BVM… sure maybe he can no longer contain the egos of the ‘dutch masters’ but he certainly did the best with the resources he had.
also, SHAME on robben for walking off the pitch so disgustingly … what a fool he made of himself. i would remove him completely for portugal
Bitterballen, dont worry there are many people here who like to share if something interesting is happening!
I for one think we will get a new coach, listening to the mood in Holland. The 2 defeats have really hit the country like a hammer, and stunned everybody.
The thing everybody here talks about now is how we have allowed it to happen that we have 2 euro topscorers and why vMarwijk did not try earlier to play them together. Why he always plays the same system all the time, if we must not go back to old style 433 and winger play. I am not optimistic for next weekend but looking over this euro further ahead, there is many reasons to be optimistic.
Anybody who thinks Robben and Steks dont have a huge part in these defeats are delusional.
Somehow we all get blinded by our favorite players and dont want to admit when they fail.
I think Sneijder has had a great tournament…other than that, not one other play has done well.
Give your head a shake! That’s Robbens part on the team, I just think you have an issue with him because he failed at his job and you think he’s selfish because of it!
Would you say heis selfish if he scored after dribbling through defenders. He still is the most dangerous player on Holland so your comments make no sense. The reality is oour team is poorly coached and not prepared like they were in WC 10 as the players have said.
So stop thinking its one player, that is Robbens job to do what he’s always done. Furthermore the last time I checked there wasn’t all these dutch players wide open and screaming for the ball, so I don’t know what or who you think he’s suppposed to pass too.
I use Ronaldo as a comparison because he had a terrible game for Portugal. Far worse then Robben because he actually had so many chances. So is he selfish??
I just think your delusional, and can’t except that all his Bayern teammates were ready for him and shut him out accordingly.
Name me one player on holland that can impose ill will on defenders like Robben.
BTW, i dont feel bad if Sneijder doesnt win anything with the Dutch, he has already won the following:
Dutch Cup (2x)
LA Liga with Real Madrid
Coppa Italia (2x)
Fifa Club World Cup
Not to mention he has the most beautiful wife on the planet and he is rich beyond any of our wildest dreams.
i dont know who mentioned it here as a bet corruption story. If you place $1000 on holland before sunday and they win, you get $25000…hmmm….
Whats up with all the Robben Haters?
Hup Holland Hup!
This is very disappointing. Dutch has no chance right now, it’s time they start packing and go home. Luck is never with dutch 🙁
A article in der spiegal on why Holland will never win.
Compares Germans to Dutchman.
If you are Dutch, the article contains enough truth to makes you wince.
the record was for koeman in 1992 semifinal against denmark, those spanish are steeling everything from us, even the passing record they broke it for us today:)!!!
I agree with JB. Bert needs to take risk, motivate this team, boost his players’ confidence somehow. Surprisingly this team still has a chance and I would expect they show up with a fighting spirit. If they do not show up for this game then Bert needs to resign or be sacked. This team also lacks the leadership that Gio did a good job in 2010. Mark Van Bommel and Van Der Vaart (captain and vice captain) did not do a good job.
wow tjeered, excellent article… it really makes coping easier for me… very true in many aspects! hopefully some day the dutch can overcome pride and achieve glory
It wasn’t easy for me to read.My pride made it difficult.
Wow …. I’m not Dutch but did work and have some close friends who are. That is a great portrayal which agrees to my observations of current or former Oranje. Gullit pre-World Cup, Rijkaard spat on Voeller (kinda funny if you’re not a German, actually), Davids during World Cup, and msot recently: Robben bouncing off the pitch to the other side, took off his Oranje shirt …. if you think about it, they make Wayne Rooney looks like a choir boy. The comparison or even mention of the German players is so far off I can even consider it “irrelevant”.
Sunday will be an epic day. A number of earth shattering things may happen:
– BvM changes starting 11 and includes Hunter and Strootman and leaves OUT his son in law.
– We lead by 2 goals with 10 mins to go and just relax thinking we got it done and Portugal scores and we’re out while Germans are winning.
– We lead by 3 goals and denmark ties the germans in the last minute.
The whole Holland disgrace can be summarized as UNPREPARED which led to exposure and humiliation by Germany. Against Portugal anything short of a win will lead to further humiliation. I can’t remember the last time Holland closes the group stage with just 1 goal scored.
Rather than UNPREPARED, i would say DEPREPARED.
The only thing Bert needed to do is to keep the form from wc10. But after 2 years the team is broken down to 11 individuals. That is a huge step back from 2010.
Full guns blazing Sunday. We need GOALS. Hunter, RVP, must play the whole game.
Pre game speech by BMV can take ques from these two.
If we are behind at halftime, Bert can try a Bobby Knight.
If we lose, and Jack van Gelder asks why, Coach Bert can go on NOS and respond like Bobby here.
or Dennis Green Here.
I don’t buy into individual talk, if anything we have been known in history to just move the ball around and try and make the perfect goal instead of pulling the trigger!
The good news is BVM just sighned on until 2016 before the euro started!
If anything, if we had a better coah we would have had a WC trophy! He has made it more difficult with his stubbourn tactics!
Now we have the pleasure of watching him screw up this generation and the next one to come!
Hi all, what a great blog this is well done to Jan (i think) for starting it!
I too am a very depressed Oranje man who has been struggling since watching the 1974 WC final with my dad on an old B&W TV in OZ! I watch Australia V Japan this week and it was a cracking match from one end of the pitch to the other very fast game, if only the current Dutch players had the heart and desire of the Aussie players who are lacking in technical ability but give so much to each other when they play for their country!
I thought that against Denmark we were just unlucky not to score at least 1 goal, i knew then we would struggle to match the German Machine that is so well structured for big tournament football. The Dutch (and i am one) have never been mentally tough and rarely do they fight back when being beaten. I cant see them beating Portugal with the attacking weapons that they have, Heitinga and Matijsen will get cut to pieces if they play the same way.
If i were the coach i would play 352 with 2 markers taking out the Portugese strikers with a sweeper just incase, 1 holding midfielder then the rest attacking, just the way Spain do it, they (Spain) copied our style and adapted it to be better, we now have to change our style up so that the opposition is disjointed and forced to play a different style to the norm.
Can some of you guys with better knowledge than me place the dutch team in to a 352 formation by name, i would be very interested to see who could make it happen!
The worst part is we made things so easy for Germany. WE could have sat back and parked the bus as well bu tth eloss to Denmark prevented this.
COincidently everyone now overvalues the germs even though they have not done much. Their true colors will show against a strong, non desperate opponent like France or Russia.
As for Portugal they are still crap and if we dont beat them down then it will because of what we didnt do rather then what they did.
Portugal is garbage.
OF course I meant the soccer team.
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