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What Willem and Johan say….

The whole nation will be keen to respond to anything that happens around Oranje but at the end of the day people will always be waiting for what the two Oracles have to say… Johan Cruyff and Willem van Hanegem.

Today, both wrote their columns. Have a read… Willem first.

“I have seen the best pass of the whole tournament already. That Sneijder pass on Huntelaar! A shame that Klaas Jan couldn’t finish that one. Everything would have been different now. Unfortunately, I hear a lot of people complaining now.

And I thought we’d win the first one too, to be honest, but let’s not act as if those Danes are a bunch of nitwits. Well, maybe Bendtner is one, but other than that, they played decent football and created opportunities. It wasn’t necessary to lose against them but it’s not a disgrace.

But why did we lose? Let me start positively by the way. Jetro Willems. I was very happy with his game. This is a true asset to the team. Started in his first minutes with a nice shot on goal and a wide pass to Robben. Wonderful. Sneijder was the biggest disappointment to me. Although he played well, I do expect even more from him. Sneijder is so gifted, I would want him to step up more. But, he is improving and in the second half I could see him do many good things. When Huntelaar came and Van Persie dropped a bit, Sneijder was pushed to the left and he seemed to play a bit more freely.

Some people seem to think Robben doesn’t play well? I didn’t see that. All those talking heads on tv, but I think he created a lot. And whenever Robben is in good form, he doesn’t need a lot of support but in this game he did, and he didn’t get a lot. It’s sad to see how his team mates let him drown.

Van der Wiel overlapped him actually only once! And sometimes it was Van Persie who seeked him out. Van Bommel, the right midfielder, should support Robben much more, but the skipper was too busy with his own game. Van Bommel needs to support him, make himself available, play off him. I didn’t get Bert’s subs, by the way? Why did Afellay have to go? And Nigel de Jong’s sub was a mystery to me. He played good. I would have subbed Mark van Bommel. He was struggling and had copped a yellow already.

I think it would have been more logical to replace Van Persie with Hunter and bring Huntelaar. Maybe Narsingh on the flank for Van Bommel and Afellay drops back to midfield. So Robben can play on the left.

Willem as assistant coach in 2004

And now, Bert is a bit in trouble. Because changing your system after one disappointing game is not a good thing. I think he needs to play Van Persie, otherwise you can best send him home. And blame him on the loss. Which would be ridiculous of course. I think Bert should have started against the Danes with one holding midfielder. Bring Huntelaar up front and let Van Persie play off him from midfield.

I think we would have won then. And then you can play against the Germans with two holding midfielders and let Hunter start off the bench. That was logical. Now I would replace Van der Wiel with Boula and play Mathijsen for Vlaar. Who, by the way, didn’t do too shabby.

It’s good that Willem kept his dayjob…

The last thing I want to say: what was Van Persie doing with that phone on his ear right after the match? What kind of impression does that leave to his team mates and the fans? You just lost a big game and you missed a number of huge chances and you take a phone to chit chat about something?? I think it’s ridiculous. I don’t think Van Marwijk should accept that. I don’t care who he had on the phone and why. It’s not done. And I’ve never seen anyone do this. Not Balotelli, not C Ronaldo, not Messi, not Cruyff.”

Speaking of which…. What did Cruyff say?

“Ok, so we lost. It is how it is. But now we need to support the team. This is when the team needs it most. But we also need to learn from the mistakes. We missed a lot of chances. That is never a problem for me. The fact that you create them is key. In the next match, some of them will go in, I’m not too worried about that. But I do think our game play needs further analysis.

One of the causes of our disappointing result is the build up. Our defensive midfielders De Jong and Van Bommel had too much of the ball. That is not their strength. We have other players in the team for that.

And against Denmark, it was clear we didn’t need two defensive mids. Our problem was not in defense. I even thought it was cool to see how debutant Willems had the best kick of our six defensive players. He was seriously the best build up player we had. His direct opponent was the first to be subbed, which says something too.

I enjoyed watching that lad. He’s strong, technically skilled, quick and mentally strong too! He has solved our left back problem, as far as I’m concerned.

It’s a good thing that JC kept his dayjob…

But the way we position ourselves as a team is still a concern. This needs to be improved. At certain times, we played with two blocks: three forwards, six defenders and poor Sneijder. He had to drop to pick up the ball and try and find the forwards. He must have ran too many yards like this. Very tough and ungrateful work. The forwards don’t get the best out of Wesley and he is being physically eroded.

But, to remain positive: we had 5 or 6 really good opportunities. That is good. We normally have players that can finish. And in the coming games, we will. We now have a couple of days to fix things. And to realise that those mistakes can no longer be made.”

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  1. Funny… I thought Cruyff would have been MUCH harsher in his analysis of the game. Leaves me a bit of hope now that we can get through this stage of the tournament..

  2. Thanks for the post Jan great to see two of the greatest we’ve ever had and there opinion. I too was surprised by Cruyff and his surprisingly positive outlook and that’s what I think the team needs everyone behind them so lets hope we turn it around against the Germans.

    1. everyone will always criticize after a loss– and that will only get worse if they loss to Germany. I though we dominated the game, and with so many chances it was bad luck (or just not meant to be). If 3 of those chances were converted to goals, everyone would be so happy.

    2. http://www.nst.com.my/sports/soccer/euro-2012-huntelaar-s-absence-fuels-rumours-about-dutch-disquiet-1.93572

      Huntelaar only player not doing interviews with media..

      They better just freakin start hunter and RVP so this team doesn’t self destruct like in previous years!!

      Do the right thing for the team BVM you stubborn dutchie!

      If he starts both and they loose he’s not going to take to much heat!

      If he doesn’t and they loose he has every expert and most of the country saying “I told you so!”.

      Oh yeah… YOUR FIRED!!

  3. So I’m not the only one who thought we actually played WELL.

    29 chances against Germany and I’ll be happy, thank you very much.

    I agree with two statements above, almost, but with one exception.
    I’d send RVP straight to the bench. I do not trust him in midfield or on the wing. Football suicide. I have no time for his attitude, his antics and his choking in front of goal. Unlike Arsenal, our team is not built to bring the best from him personally. Either we change our system (we won’t) or we change our striker.

    And if he is unhappy about that, then he should examine the reasons behind the decision.

    It would be a tough call if he was our best option up front, but quite simply, he NEVER has been.
    Do it, Bert.

    1. I 100% agree.
      Have always felt this way about him. If he is benched he will act just like he did against Newcastle (Krul) so he can either be professional or go home.

    2. I agree totally! I am just wondering how the krauts are going to play us. Are they going to sit back and play counter? Or are they going to play open? I would prefer open, I don’t think they can go toe to toe with us that way.

  4. @ Van da Man
    You seem to be so focused on the 29 shots attempted as chances created. Robben had at least 3 of those that went nowhere near the goal. It’s a wasted attempt. It’s a turnover because it was totally misdirected.

    It seems like he has completely lost his ability to score those goals he used to score by cutting to the left. I think he’s mentally devastated after that loss and has lost his confidence or whatever is going on with him.
    At the very least, if he can’t score, let him create chances for others. At the moment, he’s too selfish or too indecisive.

    1. Congratulations, you hit the nail on the head.
      29 chances SQUANDERED.

      You have to CREATE the chance to be able to squander it.
      Ergo our players failed at finishing.
      Ergo the defence and midfield actually performed their jobs, and the strikers choked. All of them. Most noticeably Van Persie.

      The stats do not lie, no matter how much you all might wish to skew them to fit your theories.
      We played GREAT football, best of the tournament so far, as noted by almost every single sports columnist in Europe.

      And I agree with them: NOTHING wrong with the system when 29 chances are created, especially against a good team like Denmark.
      Definitely something wrong with the strikers when 29 chances are squandered, be it by shooting at the stands, failing to see a better final pass, being fucking useless, whatever.

      It’s fairly obvious what let us down to anyone who actually watched the game.

      It was unfortunate.
      Statistically I doubt it will happen again.

    2. Statisticly Robben did nothing wrong, except for one unselfish pass when he should’ve just burried it. Not sure who you think was open?

      The indecisiveness you saw was him having no one to pass to because there was always a storm of Danes covering guys!

      Ya he might not be on top form but he creates chances, RVP wasted the ones that were given too him. Its that he had chances that is important. He is one of the only guys on the team that can take the game in his own hands and create chances or win games himself.

      RVP needs the support of guys like Robben and Sneijder Affelay. RVP does not have the burst or graceful maneuvers to blow by defenders

      As for being devastated I don’t think so. I think most people have more passion for there country. He’s probably been tasting this for 2 years after those 2 breakaways he failed to deliver on against Spain

      If we live to see another day Robben will continue to miss but I’m confident that the longer we last, he will score or create some clutch goals.

      Worry when he’s a ghost not when he’s missing! Law of averages my friend!

      As my coach always told me, its like picking up chicks, if you get slapped in the face 9 times out of 10 its a good night!!

  5. I have to agree with Willem van Hanegem yet again. He hit the nail right on, and I have being saying this time and time again. If there is one guy you bench on this team, or sub, to make way for Huntelaar, or VDV, it is Van Bommel. If we should play with one holding midfielder, it should be De Jong, if Van Bommel is the hybrid from defense midfield to attack, then he did a terrible job at it on Saturday against Denmark and is not the answer for us. BVM should stop pulling De Jong, and all those that say De Jong should not start and VDV should, do not understand what De Jong brings to this program, and Jan, I am sorry but I am including you on this commentary. De Jong is a holding midefielder and a defensive glue to a weak link in the middle of our defense, this is clear, he is not going to offer a creative spark, this is also clear, but also clear is that Van Bommel will not offer creative flow as well, or be as strong as DeJong as a defensive holding midfielder. So either bench Van Bommel or sub him out. Moving forward, 2 holding midfielders will be the first choice against our next 2 opponents, but if we are behind to either Germany or Portugal, and need a spark, we still need a defensive holding midfield on the field, and we will need an upgrade from a creative midfielder, so Van Bommel is the guy that should be expendable, not De Jong. On another point, you all see what true football minds are saying about Williems, and to think that most of you opted to start Schaars instead, great point by Cryuff, Denmark needed to sub the opposing player to Williems side, this is how Holland gains advantage over its opponents, by putting our best foot forward, not by being biased in first choice decisions. And not subbing De Jong for VDV, but by keeping your true defensive holiding midfield on the field at all times and upgrading the creative holding midfielder which in this case in Van Bommel.

  6. Telegraaf has joined the war. According to Telegraaf Oranje group is split, some want to play more pressing, others want to defend deeper and counter attack like in 2010. There seems to be many displeased players, and everybody is making questionmarks at the De Jong sub and why bommel was not subbed. The paper says Hunter is hurt but wants to keep on fighting for a place and ´is not broken mentally yet.´

    Mentallly broken? Hunter?

    1. >Oranje group is split, some want to play more pressing, others want to defend deeper and counter attack like in 2010.

      just like on this board. Problem is this debate belongs to some time 6 months ago.

      Our team has been showing schizophrenic behavior for some time now. Looks like the opinion gap has become a physical gap on the pitch with the back 6 and the forward 4 about 40 meters apart …

    2. nice update. I hope the team won’t split up during matches. they are, and they have to be, professional.

      I think they should have voiced their opinion since long time ago, not in the middle of the tournament like this.

  7. Thanks for the update Dutch Dream, if you have more access to the dutch media, would love to read more, I do not read dutch, so any translation would be awesome, thanks!

  8. My pleasure Jimmy.
    Couple of papers reports vd Vaart has lost faith in vMarwijk, that Nigel is dissatisfied and openly questioned why he and not Bommel was subbed and this seems to have led to internal debate among the team. Not sure how much of this is politics of the media. There sure seems to be building pressure and rising critics on Marwijk from the media here.

  9. I am glad MvB is being discussed here. In the past it seemed like everyone in this blog thought Bommel was our untouchable rock even though he is one of the oldest players of the whole tournament, he can barely run and his hair is falling. But I guess you don’t bench family members. This is another minus on BvM. And if the team is imploding again it is all his fault. By catering too much on the mental well being of RVP and MvB and don’t know who else he finally broke the rest of the players down mentally.
    I still think that regardless of BvM decisions, the players are so talented and experienced that IF they really want it they will make it happen. This is one of the last opportunities of this generation.

  10. In re-watching the game, Holland really seemed to lack a sense of urgency in the first half hour, content to just move the ball around, keep possession and poke and prod a little.

    I will be interesting to see how they approach this next game, against a much stronger German side with their backs against the wall.

    Hopefully it will bring out their best…

  11. *******BEWARE*******BEWARE********BEWARE********

    Guys – I want to share with you an experience I see very important. PLEASE DO NOT USE ANY UNSECURE ONLINE WEBSITE TO WATCH SOCCER GAMES WHETHER THESE WEBSITES ASK YOU TO DOWNLOAD OR NOT DOWNLOAD SOFTWARE. Few months ago, I used one of these website and got a virus on my computer. Last week I did and today, my credit card was used fraudelently!!!


    From now on, I am only using ESPN3 and if I can’t watch the game, I will have to just let it go. Hopefully, I can save your pockets few stolen dollars, euros or whatever currency you use.

    Jan – Please help me pass this message on too. Thanks

  12. I re-watched the game too and I’m really confused and can’t make up my mind.

    Oranje played well – I think they scored all the goals in the N. Ireland game and forgot to score in this game. What worries me is that next comes Germany which is Bayern + extra good midfield (Ozil) and…. we already lost to Bayern B.

    Are they playing better than 3 weeks ago, you bet.

    Back to the players which you all been crapping on!
    1. RvP – he should have changed his studs, he was slipping right and left – otherwise he had a solid game.
    2. Robbe – had a very decent chance early on in the game that was SAVED. Had another chance that bounced off bar. Kicked one way off… you guys really should cut him slack, it was his luck nothing more. Afellay and Sneijder both had clearer looks on goal and shot way off.
    3. V.D Weil – he should be benched for Boulahrouz.

    I do sense a rift between players and coach. De Jong did not shake BvM’s hand when he got off the pitch even though he took the time to shake both players hands coming on the pitch.

  13. For once, I am pleased with what Cruijff has to say (and don’t think he’s a quack). Actually both are quite excellent analysis’s. Thanks for the read Jan, great article.

    1. Disunity in the Dutch camp: cliche! They always trot this out. I don’t think they really do any reporting.

      Too bad for Raf, but he should keep his mouth shut. I hope this is the last we hear from him. I read the article about him in Dutch and he sounds rather depressed, but the press is not therapy. He should keep his thoughts private.

  14. Discontented voices emanating from the camp during the tournament.
    Not good news tbh.
    It does imply passion though, and I like that in my players.

    Hope they transfer it to the field.

  15. 29 shots – mostly off-target – are not real chances – we had 5-6 big chances (rvp at least 3, robben,huntelaar,etc.). having 5-6 is a lot and our strikers should have scored,but oranje definitely hadn’t 29 chances. i mean if you shoot fram 50 meters and the ball goes nowhere near the target,the attempt is still considered as a off-target shot.

  16. But most of those shots were not from 50m, they were from just outside the box. That counts as a decent attempt. Many a goal is scored from such a position.

    Don’t like this talk of discontent within the camp… we are very alive in this tournament… technically a draw and a win may do. Of course a win and a win is better and also very doable! 🙂

  17. Holland should take a few pointers from England’s Defense… every time france tries to attack they encounter like 8-10 white shirts….

  18. These players can have internal discussions and raise displeasures about MVB being substituted instead of NDJ. I hope this doesn’t spill out into the open in a major way.

    MVB looked really tired and was walking at some points in the game even when the ball was close to him. I wouldn’t recommend benching MVB as he still has a lot to offer but he definitely has to be substituted around the 60th minute mark to bring in fresh legs to continue our momentum.

    We cannot afford to go a goal down against Germany. That would be a huge psychological blow. The earlier in the game we score, the better our chances will be of getting a favorable result.

  19. nice video!

    i have a feeling germany will park the bus against us because a draw would suit them perfectly going into the game against denmark…..

    i am sure they will try to score but will sit comfortably deep for large periods to avoid exposing themselves. that said, a draw would not be the worst result for us provided portugal beats denmark…

    we still need to play to WIN tho..

  20. those 29 attempts, shots, whatever, I see them as a sign of desperation. After Persie missed so many chances, I could see that his team mates, didnt trust him anymore, so they started to shoot from nowhere at will. Because couldnt think of anything better to do. Thats why we need Hunter upfront. If we are attacking and get caught in a defensive organization, hit the Hunter, create havoc, reshuffle the game, shock the defenders, find some holes into them, and penetrate. We need a target man up there to do so, otherwise we will be again one dimensional.

  21. I fail to fathom the logic in Van der vaart instigating everyone else to revolt against Bert Van Marwijk(if at all, the reports are true).He should just SHUT UP and concentrate on the next game against Germany. What on earth has he contributed to our team over the last few years???
    I used to be a big fan of Rafa,but the way he played against Denmark was absolutely flabbergasting to say the least. In the last few minutes of the game, he gave too many passes away,squandered possession and killed the tempo of our pressing game.
    Don’t get me wrong, maybe Rafa remains demotivated all the time(having so many int caps yet sitting on your arse and warming the bench in an Oranje shirt hardly boosts your morale),maybe he wants the no.10 position,but he should realize that Sneijder is clearly better than him in all aspects of the game.Rafa looks tired all the time and the game against Denmark was no exception. I fail to comprehend how a world class athlete gets tired after only 15 minutes of action.

    1. Abhirup:
      I fail to comprehend how a world class athlete gets tired after only 15 minutes of action.


      Sylvie probably worked him too much …. 🙂

  22. I think BVM will somehow find a place for Hunter. I mean, if Hunter starts on the bench and we lose the game, he’ll forever be blamed as the culprit for Euro 2012 exit.

    If he starts Hunter and we lose to Germany, he can say that he started him but the result was the same.

    Hunter has to start. I don’t care who he takes off, at this point, we just have to do it. With the exception of Steks, Sneijder and the defenders, it doesn’t matter who he takes off to find a place for Hunter.

    1. you know we’re in trouble when people believe that ONE player can make all the difference:P

      This is a team sport. If the original number 9 did not do his job correctly (which he didnt) what about the rest?! The overwhelming majority of the shots missed came from other players. Bench them all?! Hunter did play and had maybe the most clear cut chance to score. Had Hunter started, he’d have the same pressure RVP was feeling which would interfere with his performance.

      On a sidenote:
      I’ve never rated VDV very highly. Wes is simply on another level if we compare the two, so am just not convinced that he should start or even come off the bench. The lineup will be most likely the same with the inclusion of Joris in defense. Remember reading somewhere RVP has a good record vs german teams. Not sure how true this is, but hope he gets it together.

      As for playing two Def mids, im kinda iffy on that…on the one hand its just plain aweful to watch…i mean, i feel like buying a rope and hanging myself anytime they play…on the other, you do need them against germany. Not sure he needed them against Denmark, but whats done is done. Willems is amazing btw. The guy may develop into world class.

      Narsingh…never seen him play…but its either ibrahim or arjen that would make place for him..so just not convinced that he can handle it at this level. Same goes with the rest of the bench…

      1. @ J
        Re : RVP vs German Teams

        RVP scored all the Arsenal (3) goals in a 1-1 & 2-1 games against Borussia Dortmund in the Champions League.

        In Nov. 2011 AW requested from BvM to play RVP in only 1 friendly (Switzerland or Germany) and he did not play in the Germany game.

        And in the Bayern friendly, he was not played too.

        And I read in twitter that Hummels prefer Huntellar over Van Persie (not sure if true though) Somebody already posted it either here or the other site (before moving here).

  23. Abhirup: this time i’m sure huntelaar will start. the pressure is on bert,he has to change something. probably both huntelaar and van persie will start. if we play with two holding midfielders,affelay will be benched. if bert takes the risk,probably de jong will be benched. in my opinion bert will opt for the first. one other thing would be really interesting: kuyt playing right back,but bert won’t do that,however kuyt would be more useful than van der wiel.

  24. 29 shots on goal is a LOT for any game.
    That number doesn’t even include the tackles made by the Danes before a shot was unleashed.
    If the strikers elected to shoot from outside the box, then that’s exactly the point being made above.
    They didn’t push that extra yard into the danger zone. THEY CHOKED.

    Blame the system, blame the ref, blame the manager, blame the ball, blame the heat, blame anything you like if it makes you feel a little better. We choked in front of goal.

    Even Willem and Johan had to grudgingly admire the way we played. Nothing wrong with the system when you have a natural striker in the natural striker’s position. There are clearly problems when you don’t – as confirmed by the statistics of the match.

  25. anyone know the rule on tiebreakers? i know goal difference is not the first tiebreaker so what is? let’s say we draw 1-1 with germany, portugal beats denmark 2-1, we beat portugal 2-1, and germany draws denmark 1-1 who will qualify….

    Germany – 5 pts
    Holland – 4 pts
    Denmark- 4 pts
    Portugal – 3 pts

    Who advances between Germany and Holland? Please explain…

  26. lol…reading all these comments is kinda funny. Not sure how many have actually played footy before and what positions? In an actual league with an actual coach? College maybe?

    If you did any of that, you’d know that there’s always games you cannot explain. Although the pundits and analysts make it seem they can explain anything by looking back and analyzing god knows what, sometimes it just doesn’t come through! Let’s just leave it at that…

    I realize that this is hard to accept, but these things happen. In a league system it would not be so uncommon, and such a big deal since you play lots of games and if you win on average you end up top. But here, since the margin of error is so small, everything is blown out of proportions. However, it is still the same thing. The same team BVM played vs Denmark can come out vs the other two opponents and completely destroy them. Thats just the name of the game. What will any of you say about his decisions then?!

  27. I think V Persie didn´t play so bad. he moved a lot a create a lot of space for the midfields. I have to agree that he miss a lot of oportunities. i think if you play Hunter you will sacrifice creativity.

    I like Hunter as 9. V persie as 10 and sneijder as 8, beside one holding midfield.

    1. he drops back too much and wanders into crazy positions too much – if he can stop doing that, he’s got my vote. Like seriously, if he wants to play on the wing or in defence great but tell Bert first

  28. Totally agree with Sam. Huntelaar has to start, he can bench whoever he wants except Steks and Sneijder.

    The pressure is inmense but this team has won big battles. They just need to create and SCORE and be very tight at the back, not allowing one single goal. At this point I don´t care who starts, that is Bert´s problem but Holland has to beat the Germans. If Oranje can´t beat the Germans or at least tie against them, then we will be out with all justice.

    But I am positive we still have it in our hands. The math is simple: WIN BOTH GAMES NO MATTER WHAT. If not, everything will depend on luck. And if we lose this game we will be out because the team didn´t have the hunger and efficiency it showed during WC 2010.

  29. Many of you here say that “if we played that game again”… well, I’m a firm believer that if we play that again in the way we played it, we wouldn’t score AGAIN.

    Thats a lesson well learned from the Milan team of the 90′. Sacchi did put his best forwards in a practice match against an organized defence, and they COULDNT SCORE. Thats what happened with us here. I have seen so many Oranje games, and I can tell the difference between a semi of EK 2000′ when the ball just didnt want to get in, and this game here. These two are totally diferent things IMO.

    Did anyone here see anything tactically astute from the game we played? I dint notice anything.. anything at all. We didnt work as a unit. All I could see it was Sneijder at some point getting into the role of the shadow striker with a header!!, which with his height seems ridiculous.

  30. Decent article as always, very interested to hear what our legends have to say and @Connor, I completely agree I was waiting for Cruyff to shred us up from the lack of creativity and how selfish we looked a couple of days ago. However, reading the other article and some of the posts here, I am not personally fond of RVP, but looks like he needs to redeem himself or he may be lost in his own spotlight, I know it sounds crazy but I’d play him for a bit and see what’s good or drop him back and have Hunter in to score massive goals.

    For small example (not to mention half or the whole lot) I guess a lot of ppl forgot that in a game not too long ago, Hunter took on a seemingly impossible header, not only unfortunately gets hit in the head and knocked out, but scores a beauty, only to come conscience not only realizing he scored but continued to play, until we thought he needed assessment. That’s the heart and the blood of Oranje we need from all our players, to play fierce and fearless VAL AAN ALS LEEUWEN! Oranje Is De Kleur Van Gekte, Hup Holland Hup!

    1. definitely man! I keep reminding myself that over and over just to stay from getting too disappointed hahah, plus we did lose the first game in ’88 then turn around to win the whole thing. I don’t know why, but I feel good about this, just like Chelsea, have a very very strong feeling that we’ll pull it off in dramatic style and let’s support them and concentrate one game at a time.

      1. Only difference here is that Chelsea has the defense to pretty much take anything you throw at it including Messi. Let’s be real here….chances of us winning against the Germans is 30% at most. And then if we do that….Germany had an extremely hard time breaking down Portugal.

  31. My chess play will be this: Van Bommel one line back (Central Defence), Sneijder one line back (Holding Creative Mid like Pirlo or Bastian Schewni), Van Persie one line back (Shadow striker) and then we have room for Hunter up front!!!. The sacrificed position: Vlaar who is not a starter or Mathijsen who is not in top form yet. But that won´t happen and Mathijsen will play…I predict that´s the only change Bert will introduce with the question mark of Huntelaar all over the place. I think he might try Hunter and Van Persie at the same time. He did it against the Danes in an urgency situation. AND WE CERTAINLY ARE IN AN URGENT SITUATION AGAINST GERMANY.

    But as I said before: it´s Bert´s problem to solve it.

    Let´s keep positive my friends.

  32. And another thing that we all know: The tactical thing in football is scoring a GOAL. Since Holland wasn´t able to do it even though it created tons of chances and Denmark scored by creating just a few, the Danes grew up in confidence because they noticed the luck wasn´t with us and they grabbed their opportunity with both hands. So against Germany it will be very important to score very early to change all the tactical game plan and flow of the game. If we score early and of course first we can punish them big time but if it goes the other way around it will be a painful game to watch.

    Keep the good spirit guys.

  33. Holland beating Germany is not a surprise. Denmark beating Holland is a surprise. Coming into this tournament, no one would be surprised if Holland beat all three teams. Am I correct? We have the talent and pedigree.

    The fact that we stumbled against Denmark makes us look bad. However, we still have destiny in our own hands. Let’s beat Germany. The Germans would be shocked if they lost to Denmark and they would be disappointed if they lost to Portugal but a loss against Holland wouldn’t be a shock as they know our talent.

    Yes, it’s bad we lost. Hunter absolutely has to start. I like Arsenal and I watch a lot of premier league games. Hunter is more effective for Oranje. RVP is more effective for Arsenal. At the end of the day, they are two different teams, with two different systems. At Oranje we need someone to lead the line for us and not another playmaker in midfield. Who is he setting up the goal for when he wanders into midfield? I don’t see Sneijder or Robben taking over at the top when RVP decides he wants to play midfield.

    I understand RVP likes to create one-two passes and build the offense to beat the defense. However, those situations are very tough unless you have enough space to operate. It is easier for us to make a through pass to dissect the defense with a diagonal pass, cross the ball from the wings or over the top so that Hunter can beat the offside trap and score.

    Good thing about Hunter is we know where he’ll be. Ready to strike and pounce unlike RVP who is AWOL or MIA from time to time.

    I’m not saying bench RVP. I’m just saying is:


    Vote for Hunter!!!
    Vote for Hunter!!!
    Vote for Hunter!!!

  34. sorry guys but this year is not our year, it happen to germany in euro 04 and france in euro 08. spain also will not make the final.

    i have a felling russia, italy, england or france will win it.

    1. Good read, calms me down a bit hahah. Being an both Irish and Dutch, I had to scratch my head here and say yeah this could def be a repeat and maybe it’s written in the stars for us and we just had to get over a gloomy day (as corny as that may sound). To the tee this article is actual a pretty decent read, if it means Ireland losing for our beloved Oranje, that’s fair enough and just to show how unbiased I am, I have the Oranje Lion and clover tat and as long as we win two games then we’re in, even worst case scenario we can afford 1 draw, but eff that noise it’s our time!

  35. Stekelenburg
    VdW – Heitinga – Boulahrouz – Willems
    De Jong – Strootman
    v.Persie – Huntelaar – Afellay

    If Hunter is an out and out forward NDJ is an out and out DESTROYER. He is aggressive (a bit dirty) and has good stamina. You put the destroyer alongside another CM with vision and creativity to link with Sneijder. Strootman will get the ball up to Sneijder quicker allowing full backs to push up and give Sneijder to be the maestro he is. Huntelaar stalks in the box…v.Persie gets to drift and be an artist…Afellay uses his pace/dribbling to cross and take shots. This is the exact same system just with more balance between defense and attack. v.Bommel is retiring and all he can do better than NDJ is pass other than that we have 2 identical players which is a waste of a position. Some of you will say VdV should play alongside NDJ but that won’t work because VdV is hell bent on playing behind strikers and he ALWAYS gets in Sneijder’s way which hurts Sneijder’s game.

    Wether BVM makes a change or not we will see. But he obviously doesn’t use logic aside from the worry that we have a crap defense. If we lose we won’t have to have these debates anymore as he will get the sack which I will be perfectly fine with.

    1. We have already seen how quickly Strootman loses his head, and can’t control his territory. Putting him against the German is ridiculous at best.

      Also subbing Robben is a big NO. The guy might be arrogant douche, but he is threat to the any defense unlike RvP. The left wing will be pretty useless.

  36. OH and before I forget…
    Does BVM have to take orders from Rafa Benitez and wait until the 75th minute to make substitutions even if we look useless?!?! This puts entirely way too much pressure on the player to come on and make an impact where they won’t ease into the game but rather go all-out and make mistakes.

    I mean fine you like the 4231 also, coincidence maybe. But waiting until 73:36 to make your first change? A little too obvious (lol)

  37. VDV is a crying little whiny biaaa*… he should just sit on the bench and help his team’s morale by shutting his mouth rather than bashing his coach.. obviously he is frustrated but he wasn’t even a consistent starter for Harry Rednapp so why would he be for Holland. I agree with Oranjeboom, I much rather see Strootman alongside Nigel than Bommel or VDV… try something different, use a surprise strategy! I still trust in Bert because he took us to the final but he needs to make some sound decisions and quick….

    We need to control the tempo and move up slowly, there is no need to attack from the get go and allow space for the counter… we need to dominate possession even if its boring football for intervals because we cannot let our D become vulnerable.

      1. domenech relied on tarot cards and astrology to pick players, he and bert van marijk just got lucky both countries were full of great players. but eventually if you do the same thign over and over, you get figured out, and once that happens, you have to change or lose

  38. In a game of this magnitude, I doubt that BVM will drop MVB to the bench to start the game. I think after all the criticism, he’ll take him off if he starts to look like he lost his lungs in the 2nd half.

    Hunter is definitely a logical choice to start the game as he is familiar with the Bayern defense which is basically the German defense (minus Hummels).

    I have a feeling that Afellay will be sacrificed to make way for Hunter. I don’t think BVM will take off RVP or Robben to fit him in.

    Another change we might see is Boulah for either Vlaar or VDW. Another German based player who I believe should start.

    I don’t know why Boulah didn’t start instead of Vlaar. He is a tough defender and also very experienced. I really doubt he would do any worse than Vlaar. Mathijsen’s situation also makes a difference. If he is fit, I’m sure BVM will put him back in the starting lineup.

    Most probable lineup:


    VDW/ Heitinga / Vlaar or Mathijsen / Willems

    MVB / NDJ

    Robben / Sneijder / RVP


    1. Affelay should not be left out of the starting team. He is essential in the wings unlike RvP

      I don’t know why I keep seeing RvP in the wings in these lineups, when we clearly know he is useless in that position. If anything he should be playing behind Wesley, and Wesley should be alongside MVB if you really want to play RvP.

      1. I totally agree, but you and I know there not gonna start Affelay over RVP, and that’s even if they start hunter. Don’t be surprised if its the same as last game! They can’t even if they wanted to because if they bench him and win the cancer stick will thrive

  39. also, if i were BVM i would tell his players to take 0 ‘Robben-style’ shots from outside the penalty box… 0!! Headers and tap-ins only.. make plays, wait for the opportunity, no need to give away possession with silly sky-high shots unless they are free kicks outside the box from wes….

    we cannot say goodbye to the golden generation like this… no way is this germany of 04 or france of 08 and michel-olivier says, we are way more talented than those teams were…. germany lost to a Czech B squad that year and France played without Zizou for the first time….

  40. Shocking game.

    They tried really hard – maybe too hard.

    But Oranje has a huge chance now – Play full blast against Deautshcland. They have nothing to lose.

    Unfortunately I think mentally BvM needs to make a change – something to get going. Second, althogh Van P blew the shots – he had some sweet passes. Which argues for pulling him back.

    Practically 2 players had blow-your-socks-off offensive years – and both have to be out there. The defensive trade off is tough but balanced out with the fact the defenders have to be a bit more careful with 2 guns out there.

    BTW – Affelay was clearly getting tired in the 2nd half – he’s not at full fitness yet.

  41. Under the head line of that article in Goal.com it reads
    “Discontent emerging within the Oranje camp after defeat to Denmark in Euro 2012 opener, with troubling memories of World Cup 1994 and Euro 1996 recalled as cracks begin show”

    The author can’t even get this right. Euro 96 is correct BUT World Cup 94 is WRONG. It was World Cup Italia 90. So what else is he making up!!

    Hup HOLLAND Let’s beat Germany!

  42. I Believe Robben should come of the bench in the 2nd half instead of afellay .
    Sneijder was amazing on the left against denmark , he created chances and played really good , i’d definitly use him in the same spot against Germany .

    i think strootman can be the key to link between the midfeild and our strikers . he should play aside with bommel , both of them can attack , defend and push forward .

    My line-up in the next game would be

    ____________ STEK ____________
    _____ Heitinga __ Mathijsen __
    VDW ___________________ Willems

    ____ BOMMEL ____ STROOTMAN ____
    Afellay _____ PERSIE _____ Snijder
    ________ HUntelaar ____________

    in the 2nd half bring Robben instead of afellay , a fresh Robben in the second half will cause a real damage to the Deutsch .

  43. and please we have to support our team till the last moment , It’s not the proper time to blame BVM or one of the players for the loss.
    when we’re officially out , god forbid, we can discuss who is the one to blame .
    Untill this moment , HUP ORANJE !!

  44. It shows that Cruyff is human after all, I was expecting a bloodbath. But no, his affection and humanity got to him and all he said was lets support this team.

  45. Starting eleven for the Germany game:
    Stek; VDW, Heitinga, Vlaar, Willems; MVB, NDJ; Robben, Sneijder, Afellay; RVP

    Oh wait !! That’s the same as the Denmark game…. Well, don’t you know who the coach is?

    Bottomline: No Change in the lineup. Mark my words.

  46. It’s obvious. At this stage smart people support their team. When we are out we can debate. In any case it is bloody useless to scream ideas because BVM is not reading the blog and even if he was he will not give a shit and rightly so. He is the coach right now and we have to trust him.

  47. Another point. Not sure whether this is true but if any player is voicing his opinion against the coach at this sensitive moment, he should be dropped from the team and banned by KNVB. Come on … creating tension and splits at this moment ? No way. I would make sure that such player does not form part of our national team anymore.

  48. Interesting that both did not mention the defense that got in trouble as soon as Denmark attacked with 4 or 5 players.

    Imagine how often Germany will attack, with even more and technically better players…

    The real problem is that NL does not have a single worldclass defender nowadays. Since the time of De Boer and Stam is over, that is the main deficit imo.

    1. I wonder why people continue to blame the defense, if they were so bad they would have allowed another goal or two. Did they? No, we should reverse the question then. If we have abundant skills and goals from mid to attack should we have easily scored goals? yes, but (wait) did we? no….so who should we blame……even if our defense played well and didn’t allow that goal, I’m pretty sure the end result would have been a 0-0 and we all would be bashing the so called “world class” forwards….
      Denmark’s goal was not a blunder from any of the back line, it was a legitimate build up towards goal.

      1. @Gio:
        I wonder why people continue to blame the defense, ….
        Denmark’s goal was not a blunder from any of the back line, it was a legitimate build up towards goal.


        Agree with first point, it doesn’t matter how bad the defense would have been if we had converted the chances we had in the first 15-20 mins of the match. Also if we had scored 2 goals, Denmark would have been psychologically down.

        With that said, disagree with 2nd point. It was a total blunder from our defenders, vdWiel lost his man and Heitinga missed the tackle. It wasn’t fair to expect Steks to save it from that distance when he was running confidently with that momentum.

  49. great paco so should we throw in the towel and lose or should we play OUR game, tighten up and play like our lives depended on it?

    obviously we are aware of our defensive vulnerabilities but the sum of our parts can beat any team if we try hard enough…. if i recall correctly, we did not have defenders at the WC and nearly won….

    Lefraud and the Heat were down 3-2 heading to Boston and then he decided to show up and win… that’s the type of energy we need from our offense…

  50. I only pray that by end of the day on Wednesday we still have a chance to pass the group and hopefully left in our own hands.
    All these opinions don’t matter. If Bert can bring these tired legs and minds together for a win then he really is a superman.

    1. Vikram, I think you’re onto something here …. 2-1 has historically been the scores of memorably Oranje v Germany meetings.

      Somehow I think we’ll see high number of goals for Wed match, I’m just hoping it’s to our favor.

    2. Vikram my friend, if you are positive, then that is indeed a good sign. So far you’ve been the most prophetic.

      I am hoping that having our backs against the wall will galvanize this team, especially those who realize this could be one of their last chances at the crown. Even if they have to go off script once in a while and use sheer force of will to make something good happen.

  51. I watched the game again and i thought De Jong in particular was excellent, his distribution was forward and effective, van bommel was quite poor especially in the first half.

    Van Persie’s overall game was very good, nice passes, link up play, intelligent movement but his finishing was terrible. His confidence completely went with that miskick, you could see he stopped demanding the ball after that.

    Van der wiel was terrible. Worse player on the pitch. No support for the winger, weak in defense. Just disgraceful

    Van der Vaart was poor when he came on, Huntelaar gave the ball away with every touch.

    Vlaar and Willems did well, its funny that the world cup finalist defenders Heitinga and VDW let the defense down.

  52. I am not surprised at JC’s comments. As long as we dominated, created a lot of chances he would be happy (according to his philosophy)regardless of losing the game. Now had we won ugly he would criticize the team. As Jan said, perhaps the team was overconfident/underestimated the Danes. Well, now they need to beat the German. Win and they still have a chance to advance. Tie or loss they can walk the last game or just let all the subs starting.

    1. >I am not surprised at JC’s comments. As long as we dominated, created a lot of chances he would be happy (according to his philosophy)regardless of losing the game. Now had we won ugly he would criticize the team.

      agree 100%. This team had very Cruyffean approach. It would be like criticizing himself 🙂

      The team was setup like BvM had listened to JC’s phonecalls 🙂

      Problem is we lost .. not exactly unexpected with this approach. 🙁

    1. SamDC,

      The problem is I don’t think we played beautiful last Sat and we still lost. I think the fact that we have MvB and Nigel as 2 holding midfielders just prevent the team to be able to play “beautifully”. Neither is fluid/fast. I miss Rijkaard and Pitbull Davids.

  53. I hope that Bert and his team management will watch the video of the first match. Some people here said that actually the team did not play that bad. The only problem was that they did not score.

    So, it is better to start with Hunter and Van Persie. Afellay will be sacrified in my opinion, to make room for van Persie. Bert will play with 2 holding midfielders. It is Germany…

  54. Holland need a dynamic box to box midfielder like Strootman. He will add tempo and energy to the midfield and he can support the attack well.

    Van Der Vaart is a liability in the midfield. He’s a genius but lacks alot physically.

  55. I’m with Cruyff and most of you. I’ve expressed my opinions and will just support Oranje. Let’s see what happens on Wednesday. It’s not over yet.

    As far as the future of the Elftal…
    I agree with Paco. Oranje’s current problem is we don’t have any world class Center Backs. We don’t have a De Boer, Koeman, Stam in the current squad or coming through the ranks. Why else does BVM use 2 Defensive CMFs? A great defense allows the attackers to play with confidence and freedom. Spain has Puyol/Pique/Ramos, Germany: Hummels, Badstuber, Boateng, Italy: Chielini, Portugal: Pepe (thug), Alves, Brazil: Thiago Silva, Serbia: Ivanovic, Vidic. All are CBs that are intimidating and have that drive to stop an attack dead in its tracks. The other thing about all of these CBs is they always have great passing skills & vision to transition their teams into attack and build from the back.

    We have Bruma, Gouweleeuw, Viergever, Nuytinck, Martins-Indi, Van Rhijn coming up. They all show promise (especially Gouweleeuw/Martins-Indi) but are still undeveloped and as of right now and don’t have the aura of a bone-crunching CB that strikes fear into a striker. What do you all think of them?

    (on a side note I was thinking Pieters should develop more as a Center Back. He has a good left foot and great defensive positioning. To me he lacks the pace to stay on the flank against a Nani, Ronaldo, Robben, Messi and Willems, Buttner, v.Aanholt look like the future)

    1. Things are not so bad for the future. We will have Douglas (you left him off), Pieters, Willems. We may have to find a good right back. I’m fond of the idea of converting a winger to a wing fullback — it worked for players like Grosso, and some people think Bale should play left back and Barca.

        1. Yeah I’m hoping Barca pick up Bale. It depends how much Spurs want though because Barca also need a replacement for Puyol soon.

          Jordi Alba is a converted winger to fullback as you said and he plays well.

  56. Is Douglas that good? Has he ever been called up by Brazil? I mean if he’s good enough to be Oranje’s starting CB, why did he give up on Brazil?

    If he is really good enough, why didn’t BVM fast-track his naturalization process?

    1. I’ve heard good things about Douglas but to be honest have not seen him in action much yet– I hope to see more of him and judge for myself.

      FIFA has a 5 year residency rule (I think) and Douglas wouldn’t qualify until later in 2012, so he missed the cutoff for the Euros. At first he petitioned for special consideration but since FIFA have never granted it before, he withdrew it.

      He turned down Brazil, I understand, because he has a Dutch wife/girlfriend and loves Holland, and wants to stay in our country.

  57. @Oranje Bloom and Van X

    How about this squad for 2014?????

    Goalkeepers: Krul,Stekelenburg,Vorm

    Defence: Ricardo Van Rhijn,Van der Wiel,Heitinga,Douglas,De Vrij,Jeffrey Gouweleeuw,Bruma,Jetro Willems,Pieters

    Midfield: Kevin Strootman,Jordy Clasie,De Jong,Narsingh,Robben,Adam Maher,Afellay,Ola John,Sneijder,Fer

    Attackers: Van Persie,Huntelaar,Van Wolfswinkel,Luuk De Jong,Castaignos

    Standbys- Memphis Depay,Tony Trinnidade de Villena,Annas Achabar

    1. I haven’t had enough of a chance to see the youngsters in action yet (it’s hard to get Dutch league games on TV here in the states, only on the Spanish channel once/week if lucky), but we do have good young talent coming down the pipe. I judge that by new players like Willems, Narsingh, and Ola John, and the fact that we are doing well in the tournaments with our youth squads.

      People always think that new talent may never come, but we have seen cycles here in Oranje. And just look at Germany — they started WC10 with a bunch of no names (Ozil who?) and look where they are now.

  58. Of course it all depends on who’s performing and who’s not but I guess we can play 4-3-3 with this team. I want someone like Rijkaard and bring back the “sexy” football..I believe this team has the potential to go all the way in 2014. 2 years will be enough to gel these emerging talents into the NT setup!
    Our squad depth will increase like crazy and we can go back to our roots of playing attractive football with strong,young defenders.
    As for this tournament, I don’t see this team getting past the group stages. I’m not a pessimist but at this moment,I can’t be optimistic either. I just hope they don’t humiliate us(like they did to Argentina in the quarters)cause honestly,we do not have the resources to withstand their counter-attacks.

  59. This has nothing to do with anything, is only good for a chuckle:

    I like to google “Netherlands” to see what goes on there according to the english speaking world. Right now top of the list is an article by Bleacher Report and is showing as:

    “Netherlands vs Holland: How Important Will This Match Be for Both …”‎

    Of course it should read:

    “Netherlands vs Holland: How Important Will This Match Be for the Dutch …”

  60. @Abhirup
    I like your picks for the future (I forgot about De Vrij). It all depends how they develop and which players of the current squad still have the fitness for Oranje but the integration needs to take place after this tournament. I’d love for Rijkaard to take over if Cruyff never will.

    I’d love to see this side start a friendly…
    VdW – Gouweleeuw – Martins.Indi – Willems
    Maher – Fer – Strootman
    Narsingh – Castaignos – Ola John

    I saw quite a few Twente matches this past season and didn’t think Douglas was that great. Feyenoord & PSV really took them apart and Douglas looked lost. You can never blame one player but his positioning was waaay off on some goals conceded.

    1. Think, Douglas should move to Newcastle or other big league team… so he can develop well…

      Cruyff too old, love to see Philip Cocu manage the team

  61. Is there anybody here who watch the latest training in the Holland camp? Maybe you can see what will happen on Wednesday if you see the training. Is Mathisjen fit enough to play? Has Bert changed his mind to pick Hunter as starter?

  62. Had issues posting but I posted link at top. Huntelaar only player not to talk to media.

    Scenario 1. Don’t start Huntelaar and lose, a majority of the nation saying I told you so! FIRED!!

    Scenario 2.Start both and lose, maybe fired..

    Scenario 3. Don’t start Huntelaar and win with RVP not scoring. The pressure starts over again and the drama continues next game.

    Scenario 4. Win without huntelaar and RVP breaks his scoring slump. Drama will repeat itself once he fails in the future.

    Scenario 5. Win with both in and BVM has a reedemed himself and the trust of the nation.

    After playing all these options out even if the win without Huntelaar eventually the pressure will come back everytime RVP fails to produce goals.let’s be honest unless RVP goes on a tear from here on out the pressure is always going to be there for BVM.

    The only real option to take media attention and make everyone happy including the team is to play Huntelaar! Its are only option to get the media off our backs and to take away the distraction that this has been!

    As long as were in the EC this is going to be the disturbance in the team.

    If BVM had any respect for the wealth of his team and keeping problems isolated he would do what is right. For the players,your country and the mental health of the team. He should do this just for the sake of keeping the media pressure away from distracting the team.

    Like what is the big freakin deal to play the top scorer in qualy?

  63. I wouldn’t play Huntelaar from the start … just sub him in earlier if need arises. You seem to forget that he also lost a big chance during the game, after a great pass from Sneijder.

    1. Huntelaar took one touch too many, tried to lift it over the Danish Keeper – Van Persie falls over himself. At least Huntelaar made the keeper come out and save the shot. VP was falling over himself and/or skying the shot high and wide. Huntelaar is still all class. If he had more than one decent chance he would have put it away just fine.

  64. JC and Jan and many of you saw the same thing. We played as 2 units instead of 1 unit and there are too much spaces between them. Now the crap that I read that we may implode ourselves is scary. Van Der Vaart is not happy that Bert started with 2 defensive midfielders vs Denmark (and he should start instead of 1 defensive mid). Hunter is not happy as a sub. Some players felt that Van Bommel should be subbed instead of De Jong (b/c Van Bommel got a yellow card) although Van Bommel had some decent shots and De Jong did not play well either. Perhaps Strootman and Van Der Vaart should start? I wonder if Bert gave in to players’ ideas now. If we had an unified team, players who put the team first then perhaps we have a chance. If they have doubts in the system, tactics, their ability, their teammates, I do not think they stand a chance vs Germany. (Euro 96, WC 94) are the examples.

    1. The only issue we have is a CF that cant put away his chances. KJH is THE solution to the problem.
      VDV cant defend to save his life – the chances will keep coming and VP will keep missing. We just need a true CF.

  65. Here’s a new twist – last time 2 famous sportsmen went straight to their mobile phone after an important game,(not only football) they were found out and arrested for throwing a game. Wonder if the Betting Police took a look at the betting odds for vP NOT scoring against Denmark. How could vP slip up so many times ? ( Sorry, I live in a country where betting is the norm and anything that looks unusual is usually suspect of rigging !)

  66. goal.com is bullshit,they always predict the so-called most possible scenario: brazil win against everybody,germany win against everybody (except brazil),etc.
    this german team is not better than oranje!!! with more luck and much more sharpness than saturday oranje will beat them. i would say 3-1. i’m more scared about the portugal game – they were beaten saturday,but they were the better team on the pitch.
    but first we have to beat germany,because if not we are eliminated.

  67. The Portugal match may be our defining moment.

    De Jong will probably be suspended for karate chopping Gomez and Van Bommel will probably be on grevious bodily harm charges and in jail after the Germany match…..
    Van Der Vaart will run riot – Strootman will be the new Rijkaard, Sneijder will conjure up some magic and bamboozle Ronaldo with some real “skillz” and Huntelaar will score a hattrick as Van Persie tears a hamstring and has to sit out the rest of the tournament.
    Stekelenberg will save a consolation penalty from Cristiano and Oranje will qualify from the group stage along with Denmark……
    From there its ’88 all over again – with a magical KJH volley goal in the final against Spain to settle it

  68. I am depressed and I dont feel like talking about the mistakes and the line up for the Germany game! Oranje lost I got 100 messages from friends making fun of my team!!! Anyway I hope things go better on Wednesday, otherwise it would be sad and depressing.

  69. For some history – in the Euros we have played the Germans 4 times – 2 wins a draw and one loss, 9 goals for 7 against !! Enough said !

  70. Oooh guys from today papers: Telegraaf is reporting Oranje has trained with new system including BOTH Hunter and Persie…

    Dont get too thrilled… its the Telegraaf! But might be true.

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