You can see their response: De Boer and Hiddink yell NOOO, Van Gaal fancies it…. Adriaanse tries to find the exit and Rijkaard & Koeman act as if they’re deaf… 🙂
While Italy, Germany and Spain excite the world of football (and soccer 😉 ) the Dutch are debating, blaming, leaking, hiding, evaluating and – since yesterday – looking for a new coach…
While all this is happening, it is interesting to see – on a grander scale – how three of the four semi finalists owe a lot to the Dutch football school.
It’s not a secret that Barcelona and therefore Spain as a football team owes a lot to Johan Cruyff, Rinus Michels and to a lesser extend Louis van Gaal and Frank Rijkaard. Total football was introducted to Barcelona in the 1970s and Guardiola and co have all expressed their gratitude to JC for his football lessons. Xavi, Iniesta and even Guardiola have shared how Louis van Gaal, despite being less influential, also added some touches to the way they play football in Barcelona and with so many Barca players in the national team, it’s only logical that Spain plays, well, Dutch…
It’s also known to most that Germany has made a huge shift from 2004 onwards in recognizing that youth development and personal abilities are key pillars for football. When Klinsmann and Low took the reigns in 2006, a huge youth development turnaround Total Football-style was under way, allowing players like Muller, Ozil, Kroos and Reus to make their way to the top, playing un-German football.
Former Bayern assistant coach Andries Jonker (no, he’s not a candidate for the job!!) explained earlier how Low copied the way Van Gaal played with Bayern in his first season. The positions Van Gaal found for players like Schweini, Muller, Badstuber and Boateng was instantly copied and although Gomez did not have a good relationship with Die Mannschaft, now the lanky Bayern center is the first choice for the German coach. Jonker: “Low did exactly what we did, and picked the best alternatives for the spots we had occupied by foreign players.”
What I didn’t know, is that Arrigo Sacchi – of AC Milan 1980s fame – is the current director of youth development of the Italian Football federation. Since quite some time now, he’s moulding the Italian youth rep teams to the – yes, you guessed it – Dutch school. It was never a secret that he loved Dutch football ( Duh!! Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard) but what I didn’t know is that as a young man he traveled with his dad to Holland a lot, as his dad was a shoe salesman and visited Dutch customers in Amsterdam. And young Arrigo would take the tram to the De Meer to watch Cruyff and co train under Michels, Kovacs and Ivics. These lessons are now imposed on the youth reps of Italy and coach Brandelli and Sacchi work well together in translating this onto the pitch.
Portugal is the one country of the top 4 not really interested in playing Dutch. They play “10 mediocre players + C Ronaldo” tactics.
So, with the real Dutch team imploding and playing without any passion, tactics, cohesion and desire, it’s good to see three other “Dutch” teams playing with intelligence, intend, focus and joy…
And I do wonder…. Cassano, Balotelli and Pirlo… They make the difference… What if we would play Robben, Van Persie up front with Sneijder in the Pirlo role… And the rest of the team simply in service of those three… So Van der Vaart, Huntelaar, Afellay and all the other wanna-be artists: on the bench!
A team like this…
Robben – Robin
Schaars Strootman Sneijder De Jong
Emanuelson Heitinga Vlaar VD Wiel
Stekelenburg
Three prima donnas and 7 work horses…
What if….
Replace Robin with Klaas and I’m with you….
Three prima donnas is still too many. After watching Italy and Spain, it’s clear their midfield play is SO much better than Holland’s–more players in the middle, more cohesion, more fitness. Pirlo is 33 (or 34) and he can run rings around Sneijder right now.
The point is Italy does everything they can to keep Pirlo out of the wind, and they have a CB like Chiellini, and composed, disciplined defenders, not to mention De Rossi, who is basically, Heitinga, De Jong, V.Bommel and V.d.Vaart rolled into one superdeluxe version of defensive mid with technique. Pirlo is the star quarterback, their backline keeps it shut and the rest can follow the leader.
Well:
I go with Van Gaal. I know many of you guys will disagree but if there is one coach who wants revenge for his time with Oranje is Van Gaal.
He has won more titles than any of the coaches in the pictures, even more than Hiddink. Hiddink has had success lately coaching teams with nothing to lose and with not so much pressure. On the other hand, Van Gaal built the Bayern Munchen that reached the last CL final and reached one with Van Gaal as coach too. After his bad spell with Oranje he had great success with AZ Alkmaar and at Bayern too as I said before.
Besides, I don´t think that the qualification for WC 2002 was his failure only. That Oranje team had many injured players at the beginning of the qualification process, Dennis Bergkamp had just retired while Van Nistelrooy was injured in crucial games as well as Davids and Frank de Boer were suspended during that period and couldn´t play the crucial qualifier vs. Ireland in Dublin. It´s easy to say Van Gaal was the guilty one but the reality is that back then the team was tired and there were many egos too just like in this Euro.
After that lesson I bet the first thing that Van Gaal would do is get rid of the prima donnas that don´t want to play with all their hearts for Oranje because he won´t want to risk to fail twice. And he is a master introducing new blood to a team…and with Maher, Fer, Strootman, Classie, Nuytinck, Viergever, De Vrij, Van Wolswinkel, Ola John, Narsignh and some other lads asking for a chance you bet he will know who to play and who to axe from the current squad.
He said like 2 or 4 years ago that he wants to retire from coaching after having the experience of going to a World Cup to win it…and if I don´t forget he said that in order to do that he would love to coach Germany, England, Spain, Argentina and of course Oranje.
He is avaivable, has the desire, the experiencie, has progressed since that bad period, and has the hunger to take revenge. I think he is the better candidate and I am sure this time he won´t fail in getting the team to the World Cup and being there he can do great things with the squad.
If he is crazy, I don´t care. He certainly knows how to get results and build succesful teams.
Personally, I would hate it if van Gaal came aboard. But, if he is offered and he accepts, then I would throw my hopes behind him and the team. What makes ultimate sense in the K.N.V.B. hiring van Gaal is that they often do the very opposite of whatever Cruijff desires, writes, or lobbies for. So, being that van Gaal is the “Anti-Cruijff”, the idea of his getting the vacancy makes absolute sense and is bound to happen.
But if he is hired, do not expect a return to the glory days of ’74-’78, nor would you find this team pulling an ’88 re-dux. Look for a tightly controlled strategy (nothing wrong with that) and a robotic approach with many, many passes. The only question is will the remaining players respond and play for him. It is one thing to have that strategy when you are coaching club teams and have them at your training regime for 9+ months a year. It is another to expect that style to work when you only have them for 1 or 2 months a year.
I like your idea. I think it may work because this generation also want to prove that they are not a bunch of over-hyped players
>Three prima donnas and 7 work horses…
three at most!! I would prefer just two. Sneijder and Persie. Arjen only if he performs. If not , bench.
Did you see Balloteli today? The only striker, the only one who had the right to camp up front and he still tracked back !!! and supposedly he has an attitude problem.
Arjen F U if you read this. 🙂
Well Cassano wasn’t too shabby either….
“magnifico” all of them, eh? 🙂 I am so jealous they played like that… anyhow, best of luck to them and to us I wish we find the right guy to put the team back together…
Part of succes is consistent teamplay and routine. Italy benefits so much from having a Juventus core in their team. It just proves how valuable having considerable playing time together as a group. Spain has Real/Barca, Germany has Bayern, Italy has Juve. They all have one or 2 clubs from which a core group come. They know, play, and perform together for longer periods of time, and people wonder why they are the better ‘teams’. Precisely because V.Persie, Sneijder and Robben come together a few times a year and hate each others guts, when you play in a team together all season you HAVE to deal with each other or you get sold or benched for making trouble.
I do believe our 70’s dreamteams were mostly from Feyenoord/Ajax, and what about the 90’s group … Ajax core. This is part of the difficulty, other countries can draw from actual club teams for a core, we have to build one in the national squad in days, weeks, thats problematic.
sure, it’s easier if the core is together. But Brazil and France achieved maximum glory without the benefit of having a core together. It is more difficult but doable.
The problem with Holland is that the Eredivisie is relatively weak so it would be hard to do the same as Spain/Italy. Had we kept all the Ajax talents in Ajax, they would have stayed talents. Look at Wiel… 0 progress the last two years, he regressed instead of moving forward.
Even if a Benelux league is created I don’t think it will cut it.
A team like this…
Robben – Robin
Schaars Strootman Sneijder De Jong
Emanuelson Heitinga Vlaar VD Wiel
Stekelenburg
BTW, that’s a nice setup there… 🙂
About your comment, France and Brazil are numerous times bigger so for them not having a core group is still easier to handle. At least Beneluxleague is an enlargement of the market to 170% of Eredivisie. At least it may prove a more steady production line where talents dont have to leave as early and can wait a year or 2 more to leave. It all depends on how its implemented, how many teams etc. But I think should financial fair play really take off, that combined with a joint league could make for a far more steady influx of talent to a decent level. At the least it might broaden the overall quality and width of the second/third choices.
A combined Beneleague will be an improvement. No doubt. But I don’t think it will go that far. Even the combined audiences are not that big, crowd-wise…
It’s a miracle a country like Holland with such a small population dominates football. Italy is a lot bigger and has much stronger league and still needs 4-6 years for a rebuild…
A team like this…
Robben – Robin
Schaars Strootman Sneijder De Jong
Emanuelson Heitinga Vlaar VD Wiel
Stekelenburg
you must be kidding about the 2 CBs!!! It’s really hard to play with a skirt on(hint Heitinga against Denmark!)!
no kidding. It’s hard to make too many changes at once. I know what you say about Heitinga but for the next 2-3 months, I don’t see a choice. There is time to change things. Later. I would give him another chance. Same for Wiel. Nothing else at the moment.
BTW, this line up has 3 holding MFs 🙂 🙂 🙂
this should cover even the most incompetent CBs …
Think about it. It is not bad at all. Even if the 3 primadonnas camp up front, there are still enough defenders back to cover. And Stroot is box2box so he can link.
It is not as bad as you think.
I’d scratch Heitinga, Vlaar and vdWiel from your proposed lineup. I really don’t think any of these 3 is worth wearing Oranje kit anymore. Give me that Douglas chap, I love him already after seeing the Youtube clips posted here. He looks like a bad@$$ but a cooler version of the lame Pepe.
Up front, I also might have gotten tired of Robin and would have opted for Hunter instead. You have read me writing couple times on this blog that I don’t think Robben should be a starter anymore for the Oranje (still think he’ll be much more valuable as a sub).
And after seeing Buffon singing the national anthem loudly with his eyes closed, I realize that Steks is pretty lame. Before this we had Sar and van Breukelen, both are tough dudes (remember Breukelen shouted at Voeller?). Steks looks like the nice quiet unpopular guy in your class who secretly can tell good jokes but he’s intimidating to no one.
Where the f*ck these Italian players came from? They played really well today. Pirlo is awesome, he was everywhere – most notably on the goal line stopping a sure German’s goal. de Rossi was also great today. Montolivo and Cassano too. I actually think Balotelli was just OK although both were beautiful goals but it seems to me more of weak defensive plays by Germany, moreso on the 2nd goal. First goal was just class play by Cassano. Aren’t Cassano supposed to be waaaay past his prime? Wasn’t he a troublemaker earlier in his career?
As much as I think Wes is our best and special player, I’d rate his prime performance in 2010 to be lower than Pirlo’s this year. We don’t have anyone who can play the role like de Rossi or Khedira or Schweinsteiger. I’ve never seen Strootman, maybe he will be? de Jong is a workhorse but he’s definitely not as skillful as these guys.
I’m glad Bert resigned and I hope the new boss will introduce new blood and most importantly – new attitude – to the team. Italy 2012 should inspire our players for 2014!
i see schaars all the time, for sporting, he takes the free kicks, he takes corners, and he shoots from distance, and links well with the winger diego capel(spanish) one two down the line, and delivers great crosses for van wolfswinkel and passes that sometimes beat the offside trap, floating type passes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLQr020T7c8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2piByanapM8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrduUa-7TBY
good set up,
I’m gonna guess henk ten cate is in the running, From the available people,
I see a list of
Co adriaanse (van hangem recommended)
Louis Van Gaal (biggest act of forgiveness i can think of)
Henk ten Cate (available)(his daughter is hott)
Foppe De Haan (if your gonna come out of retirement, why not for oranje)
gertjan verbeek (my fave, a guy can dream can’t he, likely wont happen)
and I like that formation but I think With Modern Football, We would be best served packing in the midfield. and with our ability to pass quickly in small spaces would be nice
I can see holland playing a 4-3-3 hidden 3-4-3 into 3-5-2
We need to take some risks that can be easily fixed, we have great players, all pass masters, We can make choices to do things in a way that gives us an advantage clearly.
Elia Van Persie Robben
Sneijder Anita Afellay
Pieters De Vrij Viergever Van Rhijn
Stekelenburg
reason for this formation is elia showed that like kuyt he was willing to drop back, so much so he looked like a left back covering the runs of sergio ramos in the final. Van Persie can help in the passing department, and get through balls from sneijder, and afellay, while elia delivers crosses
I like the way viergever for az alkmaar, when they are down, or getting over run in midfield can move up, which is great, Plus with pieters there, it could be pieters making a run and 3 man defense shifting, or viergever with the defense shifting more centrally, It allows an extra man in the duels, having a domino effect, the defender moves up, a striker has to not cover a midfielder for him, that midfielder is free so forth. Maybe if gouweleeuw develops more he can be in the position of de vrij or viergever, and depending on form, maybe anita gone for strootman or clasie, Lots of versatility especially against different opponents.
De Jong and Schaar on the wings? How’s that going to work?
Italy’s formation doesn’t look too bad..4-1-3-2
Stek
VDV-Bruma-Heitinga-Pieter
Sneijder
Affeley-Vaart-Robben
Persie-Huntelaar
width would have to come from the left back and right backs, the way it does in south america right? it looks 4-4-2, but i automatically assumed it to be
4-2-2-2 with lots of inter play, robben probably switching wing to wing, De jong shutting things down, Sneijder might move left to deliver a cross, so would schaars, while maintaining the shape, with high pressing, Emanuelson and Schaars doing one two down the lines.
Check out this interesting article on Oranje’s future. It was written before Van Marwijk resigned but it’s still very good I think:
http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/2012/06/18/moallim-the-netherlands-has-the-resources-to-rejuvenate-oranje-after-euro-2012-disaster/#more-29241
What about Gertjan Verbeek as coach. He’s good.
I’m still a 4-3-3 guy. But our defense is still too weak.
Robben – Hunter – VP
Sneijder – VDV
Stroot
Eman – ? – ? – VD wiel
Steke – Krul
Alex, I’m also a strong believer of 4-3-3. But don’t you think Robben and Van Persie will fail to track back lets say a Dani Alves and Jordi Alba type of full backs?
Someone is posting with my name ! 😛 lol, this was a different Alex, for good order.
well thats why we need more high press, and a crowded field, i’m sure robben will have to listen and track back against others. and if not, don’t play him, and van persie i’m sure will be center forward. I don’t see hunter getting another chance. and we have a few wingers, Narsingh, boereigter, Elia,and ola john. So chances are good.
I think we all agreed that the blame was two fold, the manager and the players respectively. Since the manager has stepped down with honor, then I think it would be wise for the new manager to at least try new players, give a little bit of pressure to those star players and make them understand that the “red carpet” treatment will cease to exist.
If I were assistant manager to any of the managers above, I would say two new center backs, a Khedira center midfielder, two real classic wingers (more crosses pleasee then shooting, your not central forwards), I would give Robben a break (not blaming him but too much heat lately) and a goal poacher (I don’t want the skilful center forward bulls*it *enough* just a Van nistelgoal) And if Sneijder is not up to the task of being a Pirlo like team play maker and the team dependable (the quarterback of Holland) then replace him with one of his willing.
On next month ranking, netherlads will drop 4 places in the ranking and loosing 155 points, we still in the top 10July
2012 rank – Team – July 2012 points – +/- Ranking – +/- Points
1 Spain 1592 0 136
2 Germany 1502 1 214
3 Uruguay 1297 -1 5
4 England 1294 2 149
5 Portugal 1213 5 217
6 Italy 1192 6 215
7 Argentina 1095 0 -42
8 Netherlands 1079 -4 -155
9 Croatia 1050 -1 -3
10Denmark 1017 -1 -2
If Italy win EC2012 it will jump to 3rd place.
i dont really care who the next manager will be… as long as he break down this team completely im happy…
just start from scratch,,, i dont even care if the WC14 comes into danger..focus on the long term…
cant believe vMarwijk (and many others) were so blinded by those results and didnt (or didnt want to) see how poor play actually was..
you know; i cursed vBasten many times when he was Bondscoach, esp. for being the worst people-manager since Jozef Stalin…. but at least he had some f balls!!
thanks Bert! thanks for NOTHING!!
Actually, Im glad Bert is gone, for the almost result he got us in 2010.. he never made oranje play good football.
exactly… supporting a dutch national side that don’t play the dutch way is not easy for people who like oranje for the dutch style. i really don’t care about the rest – bert’s oranje played dodgy football,even in 2010 they had a good halftime against brazil and an almost good game against uruguay (who played without suarez and lugano). johan cruyff supported spain against oranje in the final… last saturday i met a friend of mine who told me: “i will always support dutch football,but not this team.”
i would like to see a new trainer who’ll go back to the basics: good defense and total football version 2010s.
what do you think about the sunday final ferenc ?
who will win ?
Mohamed,
I’m picking an upset by Italy. I think Spain hasn’t beaten Italy in regulation time since 1920 and I do hope they will NOT make a history of winning 3 tournaments in a row (will be harder for Oranje to catch up)! Let Brazil, Germany and Italy be the nations with most trophies and the others can wait for the Oranje to catch up and pass them …. 🙂
i respect italy,they are fantastic,but spain will win it by 1-0 or 2-1. till now they haven’t been great,but it was enough. i expect iniesta scoring.
http://9gag.com/gag/4633592
like this joke, about colors, Put the money on italy,
they have masters the art of stopping other teams strengths, and don’t forget they could have beaten spain the first game, and croatia should have beaten spain, with 2 missed penalty calls for them and an offside goal.
look at the tactics italy have been using the tournament, playing a 3-5-2, with de rossi in the center, and then later, after injury forced the hand, a 4-4-2 diamond where they control the center of the pitch, anytime anyone came close inside they don’t deliver anything dangerous. they had to go down the line. and what striker spain have?
although italy’s biggest problem is this, balotelli might have looked the hero for the game versus germany, but he absolutely sucked most of the tournament, di natalie is better, but they might want balotelli for height and speed. But if italy score first, it’s gonna be a long night
spain 0- Italy 1 90 minutes
spain will win, with all respect to italy,
I fancy Spain for the final. they do play the dutch way. And if you think about it, the best player from Italy, Pirlo, is a spanish kind of player. I think that we are whitnessing now a turning page in the history of football. A revolutionalization of it. We will see more teams playing possesion football in the future. Its a pity Oranje “missed” this page, and made it blank. But its still time, we can recover.
The only way I see oranje playing a more steady role is by doing something to make sure we have a competition where dutch clubs can play against better opposition. You know foreign clubs dont give import half as much chances as they get in their own country. Pique was released by Man United after like 4 years. He never got the chances he got at Barca. If we wanna make sure dutch players get chances to develop at a decent level against decent opposition every week, you have to look towards changing the competition, I think my opinion about that is well known but at least you can then start to build more, keep dutch talents on board for longer while still providing them with sufficient opposition.
Besides, if a few Dutch clubs, one or two actually start performing well in such a surrounding, and developing players, we might actually get a core group of dutch players again in one/two club(s) and actually see some trademark football.
Basically I’d rather see Ajax / Feyenoord – for instance – doing really well, also in europe, with a Dutch core that gets the chances and confidence, playing the dutch style football, than seeing 25 players scattered across europe, struggling to hold a spot. I envy the Iberians. Catalans and Castilians have giants Barca and Real with especially Barca showing a big core of homegrown/spanish-catalan players, and Portuguese Porto/Benfica/Sporting.
How much people would kill for being able to go see Ajax play with Sneijder, V.d.Vaart, Huntelaar, Maduro, Emanuelson, Vermaelen, Stekelenburg, N.De Jong and maybe Douglas/Narsingh/Elia as a core, in Champions league every season. I know its a utopia, but it makes you wonder what if we had joined Bundesliga. Sigh… lol
monetary reasons work against the dutch league, it doesn’t matter that stadiiums are full, attacking football thats soo exciting is on display, we need tv ratings. England has it, Germany has it, And Spain has it. Italy is ??? still has it, but not so much.
All dutch teams have to do is win enough to be higher ranked. and get at least two guaranteed teams in the champions league. according to the uefa co-efficients, Holland is 9th, behind ukraine, russia, and the top 6 teams, where we have to be to get 3 places in champions league are of course, spain, england, germany, italy, france and portugal.
We win the europa league a few times, place high in the champions league. and then we can get more money, to hold on to players maybe a year longer, and be attractive option for good veterans who finish with other teams. and who knows.
Doesnt do the trick on a more structural level, it would be a very brittle progress. Eredivisie in the current set-up will never get anywhere near the structural level I mean.
what other choice do we have? I mean unless we get some marketing gurus, and sell tv contracts to other countries, and hope they want to see us. Will be weird.
how can a person logically advertise it? See the stars of tomorrow, today! Watch the talented Luciano Narsingh and Jeffrey Gouweeleeuw as Marco van Basten leads his troops of Herenveen as they take on the loaded PSV team with Kevin Strootman, Giorgio Wijnaldum and Adam Maher.
like it would make sense, everyone watches their own league, Except america of course, they watch england, and spain sometimes. While south americans already support spanish league
Only logically location would be to head east, Conquer China, Japan, South Korea, Indonesia and make contract deals with them. but then we would run into fake ajax jersey’s for sale problems.
I’m italian and watch dutch soccer on streaming. We had a channel a couple of years ago that showed some eredivisie matches each week. But now they left eredivisie out and took ligue one… Such a pity. There are some Oranje fanatics even here though!
We can never be Italy. We’ve always had better talents than them but we fall wayyyy short when it to comes to playing with passion and heart, with pride for the national flag. You can never turn our sleeping beauties into lions. A few unknown players such Marchisio, Balzaretti, Bonnucci made all the difference yesterday with their relentless tackles and running. If a coach can instill this to half of our players then we’d be gold. And if Co and Foppe are not available I’d go for broke with Van Gaal.
By the way I remember Ajax of late 80s- early 90s with their beautiful sliding tackles all over the field and by every single player including attackers. It was a beauty to watch.
You know what fucked up soccer and turned it into commercialism? That freaking Bosman sentence. If that didn’t happen we’d probably have a couple of trophies by now or at least a few Champions League titles by dutch teams.
As long as we have 4 5 players not singing the anthem we will never win anything.
I read an interesting one: vGaal and asistant adriaanse!
Before you start about characters clashing: They did it before working in Ajax 95, Cootje was managing Youth selections, he found the talents and vgaal as Technical manager made them work like a team.
Spain may turn the final into a boring affair and win it in the end. I wouldn’t be surprised if it goes into penalties. Amazingly Italy is playing much more entertaining football than Spain. If they can play the same way and win it, it will be awesome.There’s 2 records to be broken, Spain winning 3 trophies in a row, Italy not winning this cup since 1968.
Spain has all kinds of problems with other PIGS 🙂 They couldn’t beat Italy in 08 either (went to PK).
Italy wants it badly. If Balotelli does not f up, I would give it 55% Ita – 45% Spain.
We see…
@Demi. I find it amazing how some countries always have a very hard time beating another. Germany can never beat Italy, Spain has a very hard time against Italy, England can never beat Germany, Russia always gives Italy a hard time, Holland can always beat Germany except for when it counts, Portugal always beats Holland etc. etc.
Balotelli can go from hero to zero in a heartbeat but I think Prandelli has done some magic with him and he won’t screw up again. He has a chance to win the golden boot if he wakes up sane on Sunday morning. 🙂
>I find it amazing how some countries always have a very hard time beating another
couldn’t agree more 🙂
A beats B, B beats C, DOESN’T mean A beats C LOL …
As per the Germany Italy thing it does have an explanation. Germany by culture tries a very mechanical approach to all games. It mostly works. But they don’t adjust. Kind of a BvM thing. Same thing all the time 🙂
That’s why they always come close but they don’t have the highest number or trophies.
Italy is very comfortable defending. Some folks here talk about the 2000 semi against Holland. Aside from the two penatlies, Italy was defending comfortably and we were squandering time and effort.
You know what I admire in them? Their coolness in defending. These guys never lose it. Did you see how their defenders exchange the ball inside their own box? No problem !! 🙂
But to get to the other side of the argument their fans have no issue with defending the whole time. Our guys will crucify you for that. Italy plays title football. And their fans welcome it.
Don’t get me wrong, I can tell Italy plays more attractive than Greece but they still use a two zone defense called “crowded midfield” 🙂
i don’t think it’s actually called crowded midfield, but thats what they do to great effect, it’s like a mix of zonal marking inside, and man to man on the outside.
when they played spain, germany, and england, always more italians in the midfield, numbers were to their advantage, the same way spain usually feels like they are playing with one extra player.
italy seems like they have an extra player when attacking them.
see, I agree with you. Here is where I am a little confused.
BvM plays 4-2-3-1, where there are actually two lines of defense, the “4-2”, after all the “3-1” doesnt even track back these days.
Italy plays something like 4-5-1 where the “4-5” is mostly defense masquerading as “crowded midfield” to use the term thrown by others.
BvM gets all kind of complains for that and Italy gets all kinds of compliments. Italy spend the last 60 mins defending and everybody loves it. If they had orange jerseys, the same guys would crucify them.
This, escapes me. 🙂
I can see the skills of the Italians but still they are defending for most of the game with a few counterattacks. Isn’t this what we are supposed to hate?
Italy was a joy to watch yesterday–vintage Italy with technical skill, flair and cohesion (which the Dutch SO lacked). Excellent midfield and Balotelli makes them dangerous. I must pull for them on Sunday!
I think Van Gaal is a one-trick-pony. I dont see his approach working with oranje, players will get tired of the strict approach and start to not listen, break rules etc. and cause for escalation. A national team is not the same as a club team.
Van Gaal brought the best out of Arjen Robben – Robben has not been the same ever since. Under vGaal Robben was all over the place, right, left & middle.
I do like Rijkaard to be honest. He has the experience, should be able to bring fresh ideas and above all, he like physical football – something this team has lacked recently (of course, discounting NDJ & vBommal in WC 2010).
but is it worth the gamble to have a coach who failed to qualify before, to have robben play amazing, in spite of the fact we all know robben’s health isn’t the best. Is it worth the risk?
ok but don’t you think that the defenders finally figured that Robben needs to be doubled or tripled teamed and that:
1. shuts him down for good
2. wears him off physically and psychologically
3. 1 + 2, opens a huge counterattack on the same side
Of course BvM wouldn’t move him to the left and that was a mistake. However, Robben has been figured out and he needs to use new tricks 🙂
@ Onzie – I completely agree. I probably should have stressed that I actually like Rijkaard most.
@Demi – yes, defenders figured Robben out only becoz the coaches are constantly playing the same tactics with him. Everyone is quick to fire the gun at Robben because that’s easy to do, but he played a lot of under-passes with v Persie and he also lack the support from vd Weil.
ok, let’s see how the new Oranje coach will use him and how he will respond. I am in favor of using mostly the same players for the next 3 games because there is no time to make significant changes. My feeling about all the Oranje star players is that they are all in decline, more or less. But I am willing to test my theory by giving them more chances.
here’s the thing, the only thing that needs to stay the same is the two defensive midfielders for now, To provide cover for the younger defenders until they are 100% ready.
Besides that, the tactical formations Holland can pull off are quite numerous
4-2-2
4-2-3-1
4-2-4
4-4-2 diamond
4-1-4-1
4-4-1-1
Jan, RESPECT. AMAZING LINEUP, and you said it…WHAT IF
deserves a “Beer” at least 🙂
Amstel…light with lime:P
I think he would prefer a donation so he can go get his Amstel. (Jan calls donations “Beer”) 🙂
gotcha
Beckenbauer gave interview after the german defeat and said he was disappointed, but said ´Great football nations´ like England HOLLAND and France would have loved to be in the quarter finals.
Its a bit of a rebuff but also a compliment at the same time.
Beckenbauer is such a d*ck …. 🙂 Always says something that sounds philosophical but means nothing plus always a soft backhand comments to the Oranje.
When Orange begin to play 4-2-3-1 under Van Basten, who were the two holding midfields? They were Sneijder and Engelaar, weren´t they?
I think if one of the best Sneijder qualities is the long pass he can play as holding midfield, as Pirlo does.
Well, let’s see what happened.
I just am wondering to what PSV playing in this 4-3-3 formation next season. For our orange benefits, developing Pieters as central back and Strootman as libero :
Mertens ——XXX——Labyat
-Toivonen—Van Bommel—Wijnaldum
Willems—Pieters—Strotman–Manolev
NO we need Strootman as a holding mid .
Actually Strootman has many thongs in common with pirlo. he can develop a lot as he’s still young .
In 2008 the holding mids were de jong and engelaar .
We played with this form :
___________ Sar _________
Boulahrouz __ mathijsen _ Ooijer ___ Gio
_______ Engelaar _______ De jong _______
Sneijder ____ Kuyt _________ Vaart
__________ Ruud _________________
Marco played De Zeeuw/Engelaar I believe….
Oh no, De Jong/Engelaar
Regarding league competitiveness and money, the Financial Fair Play system put forward by Platini might change some things. It will start in 2013-2014 season. As things stand, clubs like Juventus, Inter, Real Madrid and Chelsea will not be allowed to join Champions League because they do not meet financial parameters. Let’s see whether this is something serious or just another UEFA joke. Platini seems pretty determined though.
what about barcelona, they are funded by a bunch of catalan banks, and spend just as much money as real madrid, they are just as guilty. last time i checked they neared 600 million in debt
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/8859257.stm
so what? no manchester united, manchester city, Real madrid, Juventus, Barcelona, Chelsea, amongst the big names,
we would have bundesliga teams winning then.
uefa supports barcelona, no way they let them be out of the competition
wrong link
http://dawn.com/2012/04/12/big-debts-lie-behind-spanish-glory/
more recent
I think the KNVB will get louis van gaal in the end .
He’s just the easiest one to get from the suggested list .
I agree that he wants to prove himself with Oranje after his failure in 2002 , but c’mon ! I think it will be just disasterous to see van gaal in action again with Oranje .
first of all , although he’s a good tactician , he never gives a sh*t to the defense . NEVER .
Remember even when he was at bayern munchen , he played with van buyten as a CB in the CL final . LOL !
Plus , We all know how much he likes brazilian players ” Sarcasm 😀 ” . can’t forget when he preferd saviola over top form Rivaldo when he was at Barca 😛 . this means we probably won’t see Douglas in action with Oranje . well , Just my thoughts .
I also think there are some issues between him and Persie . not sure ??!
Last thing , he’ll never listen to cruyff .
Mohamed, I don’t care if Van Gaal doesn’t listen to Cruyff. If he can replicate half of Ajax’s performance from 1995 I will be more than happy. That was the closest a team can come to total football regardless whether Cruyff approves or not.
Perhaps you’re right about 1995 Ajax team . i said he’s a good tactician .
But the fact he never cares about defense makes me worried .
did he really not care about defense? i mean he had van buyten, but maybe he didn’t like the other options, i’m sure he has to get some new players, he did sign the luiz gustavo to replace van bommel, and brought in breno, and year before, he got, contento and pjanic and someone else, so he just couldn’t find the right people.
but i think he’s wrong choice for other reasons, quite simply, bayern munich became predictable, and Holland has too, we need to chance the attack into great ways, but if we play predictable we will be easy to stop
we watch the dutch eredivisie in lebanon on Aljazeera sports 6 on week to week basis. I’m a big Ajax fan. Many fans here also watch it
LOSERS 🙂
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/teams/team=47/index.html
LOSERS 🙂
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/teams/team=110/index.html
Love it!
Winner of Sunday’s final will be first to be bailed out by Germany!
One of my co-workers coined the term “SPITALY” since we were following the Euro crisis very closely …. I should have placed bets on that outcome.
Sorry if this has already been covered (I couldn`t get thru` to the site for a while and haven`t caught up on everything). I couldn`t believe that Huntelaar was left on the bench against Germany. He won the German golden boot this season, no?
I`d still like a Barca-style 433: one DM, two AMs and the fluidity to change to a 343.
Hey Rik, good to see you. But I do believe someone here already mentioned Huntelaar 😉
At first I was against it, about van Gaal, but if you think about it… it doesnt require much really, just to build a good relationship with a few players like Robben Persie and Sneijder. With Robben he is already there, maybe he can make him perform. Van Gaal does get related with players in a personal level, and maybe some lads there would like this. Also, van Gaal is a calculative type of coach, and this would come handy with now mature and clever guys like our team has.
Excellent points Jan. Since the 70’s the Dutch innovated and perfected a great style/philosophy of football. Nurturing and molding world class footballers from a young age is one of the main reasons Oranje always are in the running to win tournaments. But there is one main reason why those other sides you mentioned succeed and the Oranje don’t….
“Three prima donnas and 7 work horses…
What if….”
Those sides don’t have prima donnas. The manager doesn’t have to compromise with these stubborn cry babies about playing time and position. They play for the shirt and play to win. Even if there are some emotions between players they put it aside for the team. Pique & Ramos’ partnership is proof of that. Bert did make a lot of bad choices that caused division but in the end the players themselves self-destructed again. Someone needs to come in and get a strong minded group of players together. Have a spine to dump certain players who don’t work and be able to deal with the media.
OB, so who do you think can handle this…. dig through all the garbage manager and think… I am curious to see your thought. for me only Guus can manage such nonsensical egos but it comes at a price. His $
I love Franke de Boer and some others mentioned but when push comes to shove, how many Oranje managers would you really trust and be confident about when it comes to controlling egos, creating good energy, and winning a trophy? Not many my friend… but just as Germany lost and hasn’t one, our time is due for a trophy and we will win in the near future… we just need to build a solid wall in the back and find a manager who dares to drop any player out of line.
sorry about my grammar errors.. “dig thorough managers… curious to see your thoughts….germany hasn’t won..”
well here’s the thing about egos, they have to worship the coach. or respect and admire him. And thats why frank de boer is the best!, the players need a coach they can look up to, not hate, not think the person is a joke.
Bert Van Marwijk lost the respect of the players. Lets not lie about it, or say, well in 2010, club teams constantly try and change, get new players, in certain spots, or address issues, and not only did van marwijk not do that. He didn’t live up to his selection rules. and that caused anger and betrayal in the players eyes.
Selecting afellay who didn’t play, (lets assume the whole thing of attitude was just a rumour) even then thats slap in the face to players who worked hard, got playing time, and don’t get selected. I mean what more can Huntelaar do, Even on the bench at ac milan he had a great scoring record, better then van persie ratio wise. and he moves to a team to get playing time, and he still gets benched
What about van der vaart, being injured, but playing for spurs while nigel de jong rides the bench,
The next coach has to be a clear communicator, not be the best friend, not be the dictator, he simply has to say, this is my vision, this is why i selected so and so, improve on this, and be better, and i will select you.
as much as we wish for de boer or verbeek, it will be someone available
and who do we have?
henk ten cate
Louis Van Gaal
Co adriaanse
Fred rutten
or someone we are not seeing.
Also someone who chooses based on results/performance. Just because you are a monster for club doesn’t mean you will be for country. Klose is just alright for clubs but he has always been phenomenal for Germany.
Ronaldo did alright this tournament but he’s no Figo for Portugal. Messi doesn’t replicate his form for Argentina. And most important RVP doesn’t do $h!t for Oranje. He was chosen based on reputation for what he does on ARSENAL. Huntelaar was top scorer in his league, qualifiers, and has a great game/goal ratio yet eats bench again. I’d like to see how long RVP would have sat with his mouth closed if Hunter was chosen ahead of him.
@Bitterballen
I don’t know if we have anyone who can do what I’m saying. Who do I want to be manager out of our current crop? I am a follower of Cruijff but he won’t do it so Guus or Rijkaard. If we are going to always have infighting and bust up at tournaments at least Oranje should go back to watchable football.
Germany are miles ahead of us as far as winning trophys. 3 World Cups and 3 Euro Cups not to mention they never go out before the semis. They’re always there and you can count on it.
just a note on louis van gaal, since he seems likely to be the one to take over, I don’t really like him much, but since i have free time before the weekend,
i was looking into it, he does have adaptability
we could expect a 3-4-3 which might become 3-3-1-3 possession based formula
but to expect holland to play like the 1995 ajax team, is hard to imagine, but if it does, we might be expected to go on a run like spain is doing.
@Onzie,
anybody but Van Gaal. With the defense we have, we just can’t have him. I’m sorry but that’s the reality. We need a coach that understands this first and foremost.
i know i don’t want him, but if we get him, it’s important to know what he’s gonna do, i can’t imagine them hiring someone that failed the way he did, if holland went to 2002 world cup, thats semi-finals no doubt, possibly champions
Personally I’d go for Van Gaal. Co Adriaanse or Rijkaard would be good, too. But Van Gaal seems able to get some discipline out of these players. Still, as stated before, I think the main problem is GENERATIONAL. The players are just not the usual Dutch class, with the only exemption of Sneijder.
I personally believe Bert was not really practicing the traditional Dutch voetbal philosophy, and that -besides the VERY important achievement of a final match in the WM2010- was only going to hurt the Oranje because, as Leo Beenhaker did in the late 80’s, the man was going against the voetbal idiosyncrasy of the country itself. That’s why I’d go for Van Gaal. I believe he will be able to make the boys play Dutch again, not only beautiful but also disciplined -“robotic” if you will. And still winning matches, which is what we all want in the end.
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