Mid-way through the evaluation, the final conclusion has been leaked to the media already.
Bert van Marwijk will stay. The KNVB sees a future and so does Bert.
The KNVB and Bert do see changes need to be made. Let’s assume they are alluding to tactics and staff make up and selection criteria and codes of conduct etc.
But in principle, Bert will stay on.
Your thoughts?
0 comments
kinda disappointed , honestly .
I just can’t expect something new from Bert , with all respect to his acheivement in 2010 .
I bet we will see the same formation in the first game in the WC qualifiers .
Disappointed. I will see the same conservative mindset, lack of experimentation, and lack of “Plan B”. Looks like the Hunter and VDV are not to be included in the future squad if Bert was to stay.
KNVB is a bunch of spineless bureaucrats. Fuck them and BvM. More boring football and disappointments to follow. Hunter might as well kiss NT goodbye.
I still can’t believe it. Even though I predicted this outcome, deeply I expected to at least hear that BvM tended his resignation. But again he doesn’t look that type of man.
very interesting!!!
a coach who led his team to be out from the first round by playing three bad matches, losing all three without putting a fight! with all the other problems that we know!
in other big football countries,a coach like this would be arrested!
Its because the other teams RESPECTED oranje too much based on past history. Had the known the physical shape of the team, they would have scored 10 more goals.
When Jan posted the interview with the KNVN official, it seemed like he was leaning to keep BVM. I said the same thing in that thread. He wads looking for someone to take blame for vindicating BVM. So if they have already decided to keep him, they just need the time to come up with some sort of investigative report to back their decision.
I personally held the players more responsible for the debacle. However, BVM also failed to take measures to minimize the impact as we have all pointed out here in great detail. With that being said I was hoping for a new and capable coach to start a new chapter with Oranje.
This is upposedly a halfwway evaluation leak so the full evaluation still to be done. Bert could still resign. Or the protest after this leak may cause the knvb or Bert to reconsider.
Bert has very little future, he is being attacked in the press, more stories from what happened in Poland will leak, he lost the vote of some media, especially de Telegraaf is on on a crusade against Bert. They will continue to bring out stories about the team in the coming weeks. It will be very hard for him to go on, and he has lost a lot of credit.
Another option could be that if he loses a qualifier or bad result against turks, or changes too little, he might be forced to resign. There arent many people in Holland who support him now and he cannot afford a single mistake.
In my view, it will be nearly impossible for him to keep going with this pressure.
i think we all we have to do is make sure our away strip is not black. the only times i can remember we had a black away jersey we flopped (wc 2002 and ec2012)
As much as I like to see coach change, unless you can find a good coach available. How about replace Bert with Van Gaal or Gullit? Is Co Adriaane available and will he say yes? If Bert stays and he is willing to change tactic, select younger players, ….perhaps it is worth to wait for WC2014. After 2 or 3 bad matches then I will see KNVB fire him.
although I have supported Bert, I am not terribly excited about him staying. On the other hand, the players bear a huge amount of responsibility for the fiasco. Unless there is a better credible plan (like Guus for example), it might be better for Bert to stay for a while.
I am very concerned about the players though. They showed no loyalty to the country/jersey. It will be hard to motivate them. They are not getting any younger. And the big stars are nowhere near their 2010 form (Sneijder / Robben).
So as much as I am concerned about the coach I am more concerned about the players. Are we going to let a few of them go? who is going to replace them?
As per the overall request to play total football, how can you play total football when at most 2-3 out of the 11 are real total footballers? 🙂
You are dead right: that last point is key, Demi. Bert is not a total football guy, and most of these players spend most of their time on teams that aren’t total football teams. What happens when someone like Bert tries to emulate attacking total football with the players he’s chosen, is that you get a horrible Frankenstein monster of Euro 2012, where the backs, mids, and forwards cannot find their way in space or in relation to each other. There’s no quick fix.
First thought, regarding WC quals: The Dutch don’t have a horribly difficult qualifying group for WC 2014, although they start with the toughest opponent of the lot in Turkey.
Second thought, on Euro 2012: This team played Germany, Portugal, and Denmark to one-goal losses (all top-ten, internationally, a brutal pool). They did so in a tournament where: the players were not fit, the squad traveled a half a continent for every game, the subs complained about not starting, the starters split into competing camps, the players quit at the end of each game, the coach made late and ineffective (and nonsensical) substitutions, the coaching staff made no clear adjustments to the horrible gaps in spacing, and the back line played like the Haarlem Girls’ School for the Blind.
Putting it together: All those horrible factors, even if only tweaked a little, will be better in qualifiers. Unless things are even worse than the journalists’ rumors hint, this team will qualify for WC 2014. They could largely play with aneurisms and heart attacks and have a good shot at qualifying; their talent is simply too good to think even an idiot coach would completely deep-six it.
I’m cautiously optimistic at this stage, with or without BvM. More thoughts on his style (or lack thereof) later, though.
can’t recall who did Turkey play against in the friendly right before EC 2012, where they kicked their opponents ars.
So, I don’t think after EC performance Oranje will still be favorite for that game.
Your powers of reading are phenomenal. Let me try again: I stressed that even though the team (players, coach, managers) screwed things up about as badly as they possibly could, they lost to three top ten teams by one goal each.
That fact suggests that against lesser teams, with even a slight improvement in player execution and effort and coach tactics, the team’s results should improve.
I said nothing about Marwijk staying or going. Try to stay focused.
I want a coach that could say: “F.U, sit your ass down, and act as a team member. I don’t care if you’re Messi or anyone else”. I guess that means Van Gaal… 🙂
On the second thought, KNVB maybe feels irrational to fire the person who got his contract extended the day before. So, they are giving him the chance until he fails the very next qualification game, and then they will feel more rational to take him off.
that’s my opinion.
i am hugely dissapointed not only at the decision of KNVB keeping bert but also the fact that bert himself still trying to be in the job..i mean a man of honour who had got 4 yrs to make a good team cudnt do it and to top it off now loosing respect of players shudnt even think his next experiment would be easily implemented…all players including the old and new wud have something or the other to say and thats not a good thing …i can understand how dissapointed huntelaar, vdv and the sneijder group would be knowing they always had some idea of playing football…this wud seriously not motivate anyone…and surely this is the surest way to disaster…
HUP BERT/KNVB HUP 🙂
i can understand how dissapointed huntelaar, vdv and the sneijder group would be knowing they always had some other approach of playing football…this wud seriously not motivate anyone…and surely this is the surest way to disaster…
You guys are all harsh. Bert took us to the final in 2010 and had 2 spotless qualifying campaigns and took us to #1 in the fifa ranking albeit for a short period. Bad results in the past month aside, he’s the best coach we’ve had in a long time. We’ve consistently been the highest goal scoring side for the past few years. If anyone needs to go, Bert should make an example of one or a few of our so called superstars and start from scratch with some team players. He did a good job with a mediocre Feyenoord team not too long ago either. Trust me, Bert is a winner.
Everyone here must be absolutely crazy. I read suggestions for Koeman, Gullit, Van Gaal, Pep… seriously Pep?? Give me a break.
How quickly we all seem to forget the good things Bert did. I suppose that is a typically dutch thing to do.
I agree with you mate, give him another chance! I’m sure he will change his approach and learn from his mistakes. I also think there is no one else available at the moment. I’m sure we will all be praising him come 2014!
I was and still am in favour of changing the coach. However if there are no valid options currently (Rijkaard, Hiddink not available) I would prefer to keep BVM for the time being. He will be forced to do some important changes because VanBommel is out now.
i’m disappointed. with bert oranje will always play ugly football. he had results (world cup final 2010),but the fact that cruyff supported spain against the oranje in the final says everything about the style. in the last two years he hasn’t changed anything,had only 1 nice game during his 4-year reign (against sweden in 2010). two conservative,no new faces,4231,writing this i’m getting more and more angry… he must go. period.
Jason,could you tell us what’s wrong with pep? the best coach in the world is not good enough for oranje but bert van marwijk is good? oranje had non dutch coaches in the past,erbst happel,frantisek fradhonc,even the great ajax between 71 and 73 was coached by stephan kovacs. pep would be great,but he won’t coach any team till next summer.
Nothing against Pep but he’s spanish. Not only that but he has only coached Barcelona whihc is probably the easiest job in the world at the moment. I’d prefer a coach who can take an ugly team (a struggling team) and make them awesome.
sayin that i didn’t enjoy oranje during bert’s reign doesn’t mean other national sides play entertaining football during the euro. i hate to say but the most entertaining football this summer is played by portugal – obviously i will never support them,because i don’t like this team,but sometimes it’s really nice to watch how them playing. spain is a bad copy of barca (i cannot remember too many important barca games that ended 1-0). actually the best football i have seen in the last 4 years by a national side was uruguay last year (copa america).
i recognize bert’s results,but that’s all,never liked his 4231 – marco’s oranje also played 4231,his decisions were questionable,but at least two games will always remain in the memory – agains italy and france in 2008.
Whats really in a formation? A 4231 and easily be a 433 if you have the right players assigned with the right instructions. Formations only make any sense when the team sticks to positional play. When has a dutch team ever done that? How we execute the formation is the problem
Four more years of HUMILIATION.
Four more years of FAILURE.
Four more years of ROBIN VAN PARSNIP.
Four more years of 4231. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Four more years of ROBBEN ON THE RIGHT WING.
Four more years of VAN BOMBER AND DE WRONG.
Four more years of STIFLED DEVELOPMENT.
Four more years of TACTICAL INCOMPETENCE.
Four more years of PASSIONLESS PLAY.
Four more years of INCOMPREHENSIBLE SUBSTITUTIONS.
Four more years of IN-FIGHTING.
Four more years of FAVOURITISM.
Four more years of STUBBORNESS.
Four more years of EXCUSES.
If the KNVB are stupid enough to think Bert Van Maggotdick will do ANYTHING differently, they deserve the crushing and inevitable failure that is CERTAIN to follow…
The players no longer play for this idiot.
The fans no longer support this fool.
^ IT IS THAT SIMPLE.
This decision, if correctly predicted, will be made PURELY for MONETARY REASONS.
LONG LIVE THE KNVB – fucking Dutch football in the bleeding arsehole since 1889.
what a shame, what an awful news to begin the week with … I hope this is a rumor, otherwise, I think we will be ranked possibly over 50 in the next 4 years ….
Bert should be a ‘ man’ and step down.. he got it all wrong, and if u look at the quality of play ; it has been shit ever since vMarwijk came in charge,, maybe 2 decent games in 4 years…
I dont care who is going to be the next coach.I care more about this big man needs to be more open minded to try out the youngers.And the most important and a must-he needs to be flexible to use different formations,depend on the opponents.Not the 4231 all the way.
I quite fancy the Italian this year,their formations are flexible.Anyway,Hup Holland Hup!!!
I think when it relates to internal matters it is far more difficult to make a fair and comprehensive judgement since nobody has privileged access and even the media can only make assertions based on inside info and observations. So the only real data/fact are results and performances, the reality is that Holland lost 3 games and gained 0 points at EC’12. Performance wise, we saw some good looks and opportunities but the overall performance was horrible. Some high notes are, very good qualifying performances in the run up to WC’10 (second place at this tournament) and EC’12 (crashed out at the tournament). An overall evaluation may result in a moderate and pass note, but the way that they crashed out of EC’12 makes it so imbalance and if its true that Van Marwijk lost control his own players, where does that leave him in terms of leadership and respect. VM will have an uphill battle if he continues, he needs to reverse the opinion of the media, critics, fans and most importantly his own players…
how good is a soccer team? many people answer it differently, but the one i like best, is your only as good as your last match.
when you see form guides, and previews for games, what do they always mention, a teams form going into the game. Going into the belgium game, Holland’s last five games L-L-L-W-W. now do it last ten games L-L-L-W-W-L-L*-W-L-D-L, (* denotes bayern munich) so now what do we have?
Ok maybe friendlies aren’t important, just competitive games, last five competitive games L-L-L-L-W.
Our form is bad, so as a coach, bert is not only in an uphill battle, but he has done very badly.
Every manager has to deal with poor results from time to time. Are you saying sir alex has never dealt with being W-L -L-L-L-L before? Has he been fired recently. At least with bad results Bert HAS to make changes and NOW we can see if he really is a great coach.
what a way to make a depressed fan, even more depressed,
if this is true, lets think about this, in a rational manner, not being angry for the loses,
I think we all saw this coming, the way they used fitness, and everything to say it wasn’t his fault. But you guys forget he’s a coach, it’s his job to make sure the team performs their best in tournaments, and he failed his job, they were out of shape, and played horribly. And if the infighting is true, that was his only bright spot that he can get the egos to perform, and he failed.
The question is why don’t players trust Bert Van Marwijk? is it because of just tactics? obviously with his tactics Holland have been very good, two almost perfect qualifying campaigns. So it must be player selection that has them throwing fits and for many different reasons.
Here is a guy (bert) who’s principles, and him saying in the media, I only like to select players who play regularly for their club teams. So he turns around and selects a guy who didn’t play all year in ibrahim afellay, selects wilfred bouma, Selects the same defense.
which to be honest about the defense, the guy who was supposed to be solid in heitinga, was the one who made the mistakes. Selects an 18 year old who barely played 30 professional games. Come on, Insistence on Van Bommel. I can live with not playing huntelaar, Even though for holland he’s better with service,
it’s a betrayal, i hope they finish the report and find out the bad, I can live with playing your best, and just not being better on that day, i can live with that, but to me, it’s a tough pill to swallow, watching these euro teams, in the quarterfinals, and such, and knowing holland can beat all these teams. Seeing portugal barely struggle to beat czech republic, and if we were in our prime, we would beat them 3-1 no doubt
onzie, I believe the report by KNVB doesn’t have anything to do with football or performance of the team, most likely it has to do with money. These geniuses figure that since they just invested 4 more years onto Bert it makes sense to wait for the investment to provide some return. Who cares about fans and football. Who cares that pretty soon Holland will be out of the top 10 of FIFA! It’s all about $$$.
KNVB invested long term in Bert, Bert loves the money and won’t quit.
Yup, I agree. my previous comment was not a vote of confidence for VM. Just trying to make an objective and fair evaluation of his overall performance, I think he should take responsibility of what has happened and resign. My take and being delusional to the max, Van Marwijk was surprised to encounter two groups of players who wanted to play differently, lost control of the situation (become radical and rebel) and was just too late to make any drastic changes as it would result in public disclosure and lost of confidence. He said and did nothing when Huntelaar came out with very strong statements, can’t imagine that happening with Fergusan and Mourinho. They would have just given klass a boarding pass home
i think he’s a guy lost of ideas, he has no clue what to do anymore, kind of like a one trick pony, or a guy who has one good move, and when it fails, he struggles to make changes to make it work.
from the interview, looks like holland will schedule friendlies in asia, and south america to make up for the lost income.
I think change is good, we need stronger personality, with organic thoughts, and can say no to big names and yes to young talents,
I want us to play football again, I want strategy for the national team vision, and mission, we need managers apply this vision and not make theirs and screw again,
Bert must leave, change is motivating, new era new leader
Agree. It’s time for brass tacks–don’t coddle anybody; play the best young players starting now; get a bead on personnel and best positions; and then build chemistry–which I think is important for teams like the Dutch that have a lot of players on a lot of different club teams, unlike Spain and Germany.
@Jason. Seriously, Pep. Philosophy, tactics and psychology. With him I wouldn’t have to watch Nigel de Jong or useless Van Persie on the pitch I guess.
What else does Pep have on his resume as far as coaching is concerned? He’s coached Barca which is like coaching the New York Yankees. Its the easiest coaching job on the planet.
I personally think Bert no matter what the dutch officials tell him to do won’t change his tactic, formation and will keep the same playing list and wont be willing to bring in the next generation and without changes in these areas we can’t move forward.
Also ManUare keep on making a move for young Jetro
big mistake for jetro willems, he won’t get playing time, he will have to be loaned back to the eredivisie, or loaned to a championship team. with evra and the twin brazilians in front of him, i don’t see him getting playing time
I think it’s too early for us to be responding to this right now. For one, as Jan says, it’s a leak before the final result of the review is handed down. It may not be true (just like how the Guardian’s football writers were reporting that Bert was going to use Kuyt as a wingback before the Germany game).
Furthermore, we don’t know what the other results of the review are yet. We all have made our conclusions about what went wrong, maybe Bert has done the same? If he, for example, is able to identify what went wrong, including what mistakes he made, and can provide to the KNVB a plan to make sure this doesn’t happen again, then maybe he deserves a second chance.
We are also all speculating who is the mole, which players have caused problems etc. At the moment this is all speculation (unlike with France and Nasri, where there is clear proof). The review may also reveal this – it is just too early to say,
I’m sure our under-performing nancy boys gave him a rousing vote of confidence. They are all guaranteed squad members under this fucking clown. Is this the best Holland has? Hahaha. No fucking chance! This is about MONEY. Plain and simple.
We are broken. Humiliated. And still arrogant.
Look out, world!
Here come the Oranje.
There is no confirmation of this either in the Telegraaf or VI so not sure this news is accurate. But even if it is, and even if I am not that keen on keeping Bert, it may be the best decision the KNVB is able to make. There is nobody else available at the moment. He had a major wake up call and I am sure he will address some of the issues that we all have been raising.
disgraceful, tasteless, shocked, surprised…like covering shit with piss. No matter what angle you use to see it is fantastically stupid! He does not have the backing of players anymore. He does not have the tactical ingenuity nor the iron fist to shape up this unfit outfit. Simply put, it is a shame to let the next generation of players fall in the hands of a man who we know will stick to his beloved 4231 and we know will always depend on players. A savy manager is someone who regardless of the team can mould something out of nothing. SAdly Bert is not it.
It’s actually 4 losses in a row in competitive matches.
And it was a lot of clear foul ups. Basic logistical, tactical mistakes. And the giving up. At the end of every game – it seemed that he and the team gave up. Disgraceful – you’re facing 2 of KNVB’s biggest rivals – and you don’t just play for pride?
I think BvM’s conservative tendencies worked out reasonably well after Van Baasten when a lot of egos were bruised. But now when there will be a huge amount of shuffling needed – the lack of experimentation will be deadlly.
Note on age – it is highly variable and unpredictable. In general fitness nuts who don’t get injured can last into their early thirties – but only a very few are still at the top. Most stars peak at 26-27. And most superstars are capable of joining the bigs at 20-21. But again voetbal is littered with talents who were rushed and burned out.
Would love it if Nederland banned selling any players 18 and under. Because developing the next generation takes focus and time.
If there is no good coach available what do you do after sacking Bert? I’m with Al. I would like to see Bert being replaced, but at what cost? If there is no good coach available, assuming we hire Van Gaal and fail to qualify for WC 2014, isn’t that more disastrous? The goal is very simple now, qualify for WC 2014. Perhaps KNVB give him at least 3-4 WC qualification matches to show. This means more time for them to find a coach just in case and for Bert to prove his worth. This is my guess.
If what Demi said is true then it does not matter what coach we have, we cannot play total football. I sincerely do not think it is possible. I was just hoping that we can play 4-3-3, pressing opponents, move up and down the field as one unit. These players cannot interchange position like the 74 team and no other team comes close.
Now we just have to wait for the first friendly to see player selection and what tactic does Bert has. Van Bommel already announced that he does not deserve a spot. Let’s see who else is joining him.
To everyone who thinks we should let BvM try a few matches in the WC2014 qualifying campaing and see how it goes: are you mental?
If we lose the first 2-3 matches or lose the victories again the weakest opponents, we have almost no chance of qualifying. Rest assured, Turkey will not give any points away. Last time we were together with Romania in the qualifiers, they topped the group. It’s simple: we have no time to spare. Either we need a new coach and a new game plan, or we stick with Bert and try to kick some of the old players off the team and get a new defense/midfield setup.
Opera “Domenech II” has just started. It is exactly same situation. For some reason I believed dutch are smarter than french. Stupid me.
There was a chance 4 yrs ago to hire Foppe which now is gone forever. BUT, still to say that there are no other coaches available is ridiculous. At this stage anyone, anyone would be able to do a better job than Mister Big Money.
I thought the decision about Bert was supposed to be made on July 6. Looks like that was a hogwash. I don’t understand why KNVB is blindly copying the French formula of 2008-2010 by persisting with a failed coach (like Domenech) just because in the past he somehow (by luck) took a team to the WC final. If the same set of players are retained, then either Holland won’t even qualify for 2014 WC and if they somehow do, will be knocked out in the first round like France in 2010.
I posted this in the previous thread. Frankly, I am now scared of my predictions. Looks like the bad ones always come true.
Although I want to BvM resign and believe another coach would be preferable – I can’t agree Balkan that he’s Domenech. He guided a team very successfully in one huge tournament – making some huge calls that turned out well.
Not many coaches for any national team can point to beating Brazil.
Domenech wasted more talent than any other coach I can think of.
Well Samuel, Domenech did beat Brazil in 2006 WC QF (actually Zidane did). Exactly the same place where Bert did. I honestly feel that Brazil lost that game against us rather than Oranje winning it. Please don’t get me wrong, July 2, 2010 (the day when Holland beat Brazil) is still one of the happiest days in my life but when I look back at that game one thing that really stands out is LUCK. We did play pretty awfully the whole first half and even after we were up 2-1, I still can’t digest that miss from Huntelaar and Robben….It was comical. In contrast, France did dominate Brazil in the 2006 WC
Samuel, as far as I remember Domenech took France to 2006 final as well where he only lost on penalties. Then came 2008 and then the disaster of 2010. The record between the 2 of them is the same this far, hence the comparison. What’s more similar is the refusal to admit mistakes (at least so far) and try to hand down a resignation. Transferring the blame on to players for the fiasco doesn’t bode well for the future.
“We have a contract with the coach until 2016. It is our intention to continue with him, so that he can work with a renewed Dutch squad for Euro 2016 in France.” Bert van Oostveen
so what happened about winning the world cup? why talking abotu the 2016 euros
saying they will investigate what went wrong only, nothing else. he will see the contract out, not a time to be cheap
i’m guessing, with this, not much will change, after they find out the mole, only changes we can expect are douglas in, and someone to take the role next to nigel de jong,
no way, no chance they can’t not blame him for the lack of preparation, the team selecting, others.
I hope maduro performs well for sevilla, then we can have a douglas and maduro central defense partnership
Pieters will probably be left back, and van der wiel left back
I wonder who will be next to nigel de jong in defensive midfield, i’m guessing rafa van der vaart, Or strootman. Maybe if afellay plays there for barcelona a lot, maybe we can get him there, or he moves to arsenal or something.
Who will be on the wings? Robben for sure, but afellay again? hopefully elia does well in whatever new club he goes to.
For sure though, Emanuelson is done for, questioning bert
Not impressed with Emmanuelson. Saw him play a lot last season with Milan. He is young and more active than VDV. He is a decent player but VDV is definitely more talented than him. VDV needs to accept his role no matter who is the coach and let his performance speak for him. There are so many games where he is absent or not effective at all. If he can give his best whenever he’s on the field, he will definitely have two more years on this team till the next WC.
If we are able to find better defenders, VDV would definitely get more opportunities as we won’t need to play with two defensive midfielders.
According to Volkskrant last night, VdV and Hunter can kiss NT goodbye. Same with Emanuelson. These are the players that will pay for the catastrophic failure of Bert. I wouldn’t be surprised if those 2 are blamed for the poisoned atmosphere in oranje camp.
but useless v.Persie will continue to be chosen?
San Marino isn’t in our group this time around… when will he score? Maybe Estonia
van Persie must take the blame for the failure to win the EK and WK2010. Oranje with a CF that doesnt score goals – thats more un-Dutch than 4-2-3-1.
All these EPL and Gunners fans raving about RVP’s goal scoring ability when he goes AWOL for Oranje.
WK2010 everyone cries about Sneijder and Robben being too selfish and wouldnt pass to him and those 2 make up for his inability to find space and score goals – Sneijder and Robben found a way – yes we all know about Arjens failure to beat Casillas’ lucky boot tip…blah blah blah….
The fact is that they saved criticism of RVP by scoring the goals themselves – Wes practically got us to the final by himself….
EK2012….This time he has more chances than Spain makes passes in a game and still he fails to score. Sneijder passes to him all game long – and when RVP goes AWOL yet again – Sneijder and Robben try to replicate their goal scoring feats of 2012 but overcompensate – the CF SHOULD BE SCORING GOALS….
But no….
Its Huntelaars fault for causing angst and VDV’s fault for unbalancing the team….RVP MUST GO!…Bert can stay, he gets results, RVP can go all he does is NOTHING!!!!
Never ever should a single player or even a couple get blamed for the failures of a team. It is the coach’s job to come up with the tactics needed and select players accordingly. If the coach chooses the wrong tactics and/or the wrong players for the job, it’s the coach that should take the blame for the failure. If the same team with the quality to reach the WC finals, miserably fails 3 times in a row it cannot be anybody’s fault but the coach’s. It’s his job to turn things around in either tactics and/or selection to make the team work again.
BvM might have devised some clever plan to make Oranje be able to go further than usual in a tournament, it is a very, very narrow and conservative plan with no room for deviation. Besides that he is not a coach in any shape or form on NT level. Period.
He doesnt need to score….
He holds up the ball really well….
*sarcasm*
emanuelson said bert van marwijk was a joke for not picking him, or something along the lines of he lost respect for him, and couldn’t take him seriously anymore, so i doubt he will be selected
I hope not the same set of players is retained. I would like to see some core players are retained and introducing more younger players. Who is the coach that you think should replace Bert? Is this coach available? Most importantly is this coach willing to take the job offer? I read that Frank De Boer already turned it down (so did Verbeek). Hiddink and Rijkaard under contract. Does KNVB has ball to hire non Dutch coach? I can bet you that they do not have ball. They need to buy some time to find the coach and right now, not many coach is interested in coaching this squad, so we live with this situation at least to the end of this year.
end of the year? end of the world cup, because if bert keeps up the form, and we lose to turkey, and drop games vs romania and such, we are in deep trouble. Bert won’t get fired during the qualifications if we are winning, and if we are losing during qualifications, he gets fired, he still gets paid, we don’t go to brazil, and dutch players can take a vakantie to aruba and curacao like in 2002. this is a very risky.
I suspect most likely, 4-2-3-1 will remain king, all the players will still have there spots unless someone is way better than them. So besides douglas taking a spot, and van bommel spot left open, there won’t be a change.
Huntelaar might as well go into international retirement, and emanuelson can kiss any chance to play until 2016
Guys lets wait for the final decision. We’re jumping the gun. In any case Bert’s removal should always be assessed in terms of the quality of his replacement. Right now many of our preferred choices are not available. And stop the shit about Pep. We should never get a foreign coach. That would be the worst tragedy for Dutch football. The fact that we had a foreign coach 40 years ago is irrelevant. Those days we were nothing. Today we are a footballing power. Can you imagine Spain, Germany or Italy with a foreigner coach ? Stop the nonsense.
There are so many different layers of problems we’re facing now: BvM, system, player mentality, even KNVB (?). Abrupt manager change may be as bad as no change: keeping BvM, minimal system/players changes. We may need another “failure” for KNVB to really make drastical changes (or if they themselves need to change their approaches too).
Personally not the best outlook for 2014 but still bleeding and will always bleed Oranje, obviously. Hoping for the best.
Agree with AL, better to wait and see the final result of the evaluation process. Sometimes, you’ll get a leak that is framed ambiguously because those making the decision want to take the outside temperature. If there is a huge outcry in the Netherlands over this, I can’t imagine that either the decision makers would want to take the heat, or that BVM himself would want to stay.
I said before and I’ll say it again. Many players need to be weeded out and a more balanced team (young and experienced players) need to be formed. If the center of the defence can be fixed by replacing Mathijssen and possibly Heitinga – the whole team formation would change.
If the players want to play 4-2-3-1 then they will play this UNDER ANY COACH!
The new team should be built around Sneijder so that he is the main leader on the pitch. I would think NDJ and Steks also need to be leaders.
You all need to stop bashing BvM, you can only make lemonade if you’re handed lemons. But he had a rusty Sneijder, a not-so-confident Robben, and a crippled Mathijjsen. Should he have experimented? Maybe. But let us all admit that if he had experimented and it backfired, you would all have demanded his head! Yes you would have. The truth of the matter is, they made it to the WC final and anything less than winning the Euro would have been a step in the opposite direction.
Here’s all the players that played less than a full season:
1. Sneijder
2. Robben
3. Afellay
4. Mathissen
5. VDWeil
6. NDJ was used as a sub most of the season
7. Steks
8. Hunter
9. VDV
I think the entire generation that he dealt with was not the best ever. But you know, we will see if there are any better players after all.
I don’t think BvM will stay in the job for too long. So a new guy will come. How that will give form back to Sneijder/Robin/Arjen remains to be seen. I am not having high hopes.
Don’t forget how many requests were made and granted.
1. Get Kuyt off
2. Play with 1 holding
3. Put Hunter and vP at the same time.
major requests that he granted. And the results were not any better, they were worse.
So, I am not having high hopes if different player selection is/will be made. The new generation is not ready.
i don’t know who really requested him to take off kuyt in the media, besides van persie in 2010 wanting van der vaart instead of him.
but they did play with one holding midfielder a few times in qualification to great success, the games against hungary, and played with huntelaar and van persie great.
and the first 20 minutes agains portugal we did great, and the requests were not granted, he didn’t want to play with huntelaar and van persie, he waited too long till the 70th minute against denmark, lost that game, then at half time when down 2-0 to germany, and that second half we did score!
and then the last game when we already lost 2 games, he plays them, and we got the second goal scored on because he took willems off for affellay, and mathijsen didn’t move to the side, so it was like playing a 4 man defense with no left back.
the whole thing with the new generation is that they have a solid 25 good players to choose from, and if from that 25, they can’t find at least 5 good enough to fill in holes, then we will be in bigger trouble
but the odds are on our side, plenty of guys are ready to make the jump, and we have plenty of other guys who didn’t get to play, that have proven before to be capable of many great things like elia.
just to chip in a few points here, and we will see how the new ones will do later:
>i don’t know who really requested him to take off kuyt
almost everyone on this board for the last 6 months 🙂
>and the first 20 minutes agains portugal we did great,
we did even better in the first 20′ against Germany with the classic 4-2-3-1 vB and DeJong. Both games, we failed. And in both games the other team could have scored half a dozen more.
>and we got the second goal scored on because he took willems off for affellay
true but by that time Steks and the goalposts had saved another 3 or 4 🙂
>the games against hungary
come on, against “hungary” ? that is a little better than training 🙂 we did great against Northern Irland just before the Euro.
the only times we did well in real serious games were playing the 4-2-3-1 that nobody here likes with Mark and Nigel controlling the midfield. It doesn’t work anymore for many reasons but that doesn’t automaticall mean newer selections will do good for sure. Most of the guys mentioned play in unproven leagues … Don’t get me wrong, I wish the new gen is the best. I really hope they do better. But the last gen was not that great, they overachieved only when they played the system everyone hates.
well in the media, who requested him get taken off? I wasn’t really paying attention to these boards, I only recently started reading the forum part of the blog,
i personally have always liked kuyt.
on the part about the first 20 minutes, van bommel cost us the first goal,
the 4-2-3-1 doesn’t work anymore for various reasons yes, i agree on that, i believe it’s age.
did you see that 4-0 against hungary, that was pure domination. ANd the 5-3 showed we can come back and score almost at will. and what about the game against sweden that we won.
and this whole unproven leagues i don’t like, because ok, lets say you don’t rate the eredivisie highly, but you know what, ajax played 6 champions league games, and two europa league. Other dutch teams played europa league, against teams from “proven leagues”
Europa leagues does have teams from proven leagues. Talent is talent, and we are seeing the next generation wanted by other teams in proven leagues.
the only thing I am saying is that the Eredivisie players are talents that may or may *not* prove any better than established players who play in the major leagues.
you are simply hoping (and so am I) that Nuytinck or Gouweleeuw will do better than Heitinga/Joris. But I am just pointing out the difference between hope and subsequent reality.
I think the Eredivisie playing level is ok but cannot be compared to EPL/La Liga etc.
my view is that trying these players is simply counting on hope, and there is nothing wrong with it, other than believing it is more that hope …
as long as you understand the risks you are taking, then ok. But if you were a professional coach like Bert of whoever else replaces him now or later, would you not select EPL players like Heitinga and you would prefer a talent like Nuytinck ? I don’t think any Oranje coach would have done that…
I sure hope they develop to be world class players but I know this is just hope for now….
dude, i would be worst coach ever, i would try out lots of players, and schedule lots of friendlies, and i prefer a team to adapt to the opponent and beat the opponent.
all i’m saying, is it’s not hope, it’s odds, i’m not putting hope in one or two players, i’m putting hope that in a group of lots of players, the odds should be that world class talents will emerge, they always do.
Oops Guys – I totally forgot about Domenech coaching in 2006.
And yes, I guess in that tournament he did just what BvM did in 2010 – let his stars ride and see what happens.
Subs: Krul, Vorm, (Gouweleeuw or De Vrij), Viergever, Willems, Schaars, Clasie, Maher, VdV, (Ola John or Elia (new club/regular starter), v. Wolfswinkel, Luuk De Jong
I understand the changes I’ve made are drastic so I don’t expect it all to happen. I will watch the next few games with Bert in charge and if it’s the “same shit, different day” I’m not going to torture myself watching this boring, unimaginative, side to side football.
“It’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game” and the way we’ve played is unwatchable for me. If we play well as a team the wins will follow.
Gigi Buffon yesterday was amazing. From the singing of the Italian national anthem to the end of the penalties, he showed so much passion and unbelievable leadership in that team. He was so hyped up and was in total control.
IMHO, that’s what our goalkeepers need. We need Steks to scream like hell into his defenders when they make a mistake or praise them when they make a good stop. Steks looks too much like a nice guy. He needs to really add passion and be more vocal.
Pirlo was just pure class. He was so calm and controlled but he run that team like a victorious war general. The Italians may be eliminated by the Germans on Thursday but they showed so much team unity and love for their national shirt. Whether they win or lose, they’ll go home with their heads held high looking at their performance so far. They came with so much negativity and drama surrounding their squad, it’s amazing how they put that aside once the whistle blows and game starts.
Our players and coaches need to learn that before we can be successful. Just assembling superstars is no recipe for success. I’m sure they can look at England for that.
@Onzie,
I was really wondering why Maduro was not picked. He had a lot of experience with Valencia and is not going to play for Sevilla. Those are the top two teams in Spain, next to Barca and RM.
I know he was injured but so was Afellay. I don’t know if BVM gave him any consideration and support like he did with Afellay.
He is still relatively young. He is in no way a world-class defender but he’ll be a massive upgrade over Mathijsen. If he is fit and ready in September, he should definitely start for our qualifiers. Vlaar is still too raw and unrefined. Hopefully Douglas can also be integrated.
If those two defenders along with Pieters are able to take over, I’d feel a lot more confident of our chances. VDW definitely need competition. He has actually deteriorated since WC 2014. Maybe he feels like he’s guaranteed a spot.
Bottomline, if we solve our defensive crisis and make them at least competent if not world-class, there will not be any need to play with 2 defensive midfielders. We can bring in VDV or Hunter into the lineup and play a more fluid and attacking style. That in itself would solve a lot of problems.
maduro was injured so didn’t play much for valencia, but then again, bert selected afellay who had the same story.
i am hoping maduro plays for sevilla, he signed with them, so he’s a member of the team for next year. offensively sevilla is great, but they underperformed to finish 9th in la liga, but they have jesus navas, negredo, ivan ratickic, and german trochowski
forgot something extra, i won’t pretend to be an expert on sevilla, i only saw them two times, a 2-1 victory over malaga, and a 6-2 loss to real madrid, but they had martin caseras, defender from uruguay, the guy who kicked de zeeuw, and he left to juventus, and they only signed maduro, so i think it’s a good chance, maduro will have a chance to start regularly, and if he doesn’t, well he messed it up for himself
Sevilla are my favourite Spanish team, so I tend to follow them a little. They actually have a bit of a glut of central defenders – Fazio, Escude, Spahic and Alexis all play there. Caceres (really a right back) played at Juventus last season.
When I read that Maduro signed for Sevilla, I assumed it would actually be to play as a defensive midfielder – Guarente and Medel play in midfield but they aren’t really ball-winning midfielders.
Onzie, that is not what Urby said. He complained that he found he was left out of the squad via the internet and never received a call from Bert. Bert has since called and apologized. Big difference with what you said.
i’m getting angry now at goal.com, i’m not gonna listen to anything they say, i remember clearly reading that he said in quotes bert van marwijk was a “joke” that he wasn’t selected. and that he only tried out emanuelson for midfielder, not left back, and sent him off without telling him anything.
Well f me. We haven’t got a chance. We have another 4 years of 4-2-3-1 and anti-football thuggery.
I’m not going to invest any sort of emotion into this team until the KNVB returns to their attacking past.
As Johan Cruyff has said about football “Enjoying the games Barcelon play is simply more important then only winning”. Once we return to that philosophy then I will be excited again about Holland.
at least Vpersie can operate outside the box and can somewhat defend. i am just as frustrated as the next person about vpersie but i’m not ready to give up on him completely just yet.
Vdv and hunter can leave th Dutch camp asap if it were up to me. time for new guys in the setup.
at least vpersie can operate outside the box and somewhat defend. i’m just as frustrated as the next person about vpersie but am not ready to completely give up on him just yet.
hunter and vdv are finished in my book especially vdv who does nothing but moan and bitch
honestly don’t know, but seems nuytinck is better, he’s playing on dutch youth teams, he has borussia monglendbach (4th in bundesliga, playoff away from champions league) after him, along with west bromwich albion in the EPL, and juventus and Napoli seem after him. along with ajax
thats 3 champions league teams (technically the play off counts as CL)
a mid level english team, and dutch champions after his signature
if thats any indication, he’s good, very good, maybe even better than gouweleeuw,
but gouweleeuw is at a club with van basten, maybe he learns something, i don’t know how from a striker, but yeah.
thanks, my dutch is not very good, born in miami to parents of dutch origins (curacao and aruba), but doesn’t it say he will continue with the world cup till 2014, but man
those names are big being left out.
that means a new center back pairing will be picked,
I’m guessing vlaar and douglas for now, with maduro in the squad,
I don’t know about Huntelaar and VDV being “done.” Its probable that they are “done” with BVM, as Van Bommel was with MVB, but with a new coach…do you really want to write off talent? Its a small country and depth is an issue. If you start RVP at striker and he gets hurt, do you say you won’t pick Hunter? To me, these guys are “done” when they can’t be of use to the team in any situation…if they have mentally checked out, thats one thing. But give them a season and good form and we might be demanding them.
I’d like to see a system where younger, more physical and active mf’s such as Strootman, Classie, Anita, Fer, Maher play in service of Sneijder in the MF and leave him free to distribute it to players like Robben or Hunter/RVP, maybe Narsingh up front; these are guys who will push the ball forward, track back, retrieve the ball, pressure the other side, and make runs into the box…In the Euro’s the team looked to be built in the classic “too many chiefs, not enough indians” mode. too many players who wanted to be “free” of defensive responsibility. Sneijder needs to be the “guy” but for him to be there, he needs the workers, and the guys I mentioned can be those players…In defense, I like the idea of Strootman as a sweeper. with so many teams playing only one striker, why not have Douglas man marking, and leave Strootman free at the back?
Apparently JC wanted to clean up KNVB the way he did with Ajax (from goal.com translating Del Telegraaf).
“Every problem starts at the top,” Cruyff wrote in his column for Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. “There have been huge mistakes. Especially in the last year. Our performances went downhill, and no measures were taken. Many teams have taken more and more characteristics of Dutch football, and we were pretty much the only team not to. What happened at the European Championship was a result of two years earlier [at the World Cup].”
The 65-year-old concluded the article on a positive note, however: “The only bright spot was the debut of Jetro Willems. That is the only innovations I have seen from the Dutch team.”
So which team is playing more Dutch? Spain, Germany? Which are the rest? He blamed star players earlier but so far I noted that he did not comment about Bert. I bet he still did not like Bert for playing counter attack football. JC thinks Bert got lucky in 2010 and we all know that yes, luck is a part of winning. They got as far as JC’s team in 74 but of course eliminate a group of fans as well instead of adding more fans. Perhaps JC will say who is the best candidate to coach Oranje next.
Same goal.com site suggests many players will be dropped (old players + Heitinga, VDV and Hunter) if Bert remains the coach. Some already mentioned Bert also considered resign. Of course we still treat all as rumours until we hear from KNVB.
I checked FIFA calendar. We have 4 WC 2014 games this year. Turkey (Sep 07) Hungary (Sep 11) Andorra (Oct 12) Romania (Oct 16). After that winter break till Mar 22 Estonia. Belgium friendly should be a good test. If Bert stay I say give him 3 games (Belgium, Turkey, Hungary). If it does not work fire him and at least you have from now till then to line up his replacement and give his replacement a month to prepare for Andorra (should be a good start for a new coach).
you have a game against Turkey on Sep 7. Would you drop Heitinga, regardless of what he did in and out of the field?
What if his replacement is even worse?
Forget that Bert is the coach, let’s say it is you or someone else. Someone who has a contract saying you have to professionally select players and try for the best.
So what do you do ? I also want to shoot Heitinga but what do you do if you are the real coach and not an internet coach ?
why is there only one replacement, there is one friendly with belgium.
you have two centerback positions,
plus club form, We will be trying out douglas, next to who? don’t know,
hypothetically speaking,
I’d pair douglas and Maduro, see how it goes against belgium,
call up vlaar along with de vrij, They partner with each other for feyenoord,
if they (douglas and maduro) bomb, I have vlaar and de vrij together,
play two holding midfielders for cover.
Mathijsen still is at malaga, if he’s healthy he’s a short term replacement with two holding midfielders. the result is what matters.
in order i got douglas, maduro, Mathijsen, Vlaar, De vrij
in holding role, i have nigel de jong, partner with vurnon anita or strootman.
it’s good enough to win that game, i care about the results. attacking football will come with time.
I personally like what oscar tabarez does with uruguay national team, He alters formations to counter his opponents,
Turkey likes to line up in a 4-3-3
a simple 4-4-2 can do great, especially with topal or inan being the central midfielder,
the two strikers would have to willing to put in hard work, running the channels, I can see myself having a team with kuyt and robben on the wings, deep with robben launching quick attacks, near the passing duo of sneijder and van persie if need be.
i dont think you have Douglas for that game. Mathijsen might not be avail either, due to age or injury. Even if he was Vlaar/Mathijsen are slower than snails …
So you are left with Maduro, Vlaar and De Vrij. With Maduro/Vlaar being your first choice.
And you don’t call Heitinga… You like Russian roulette bro, but most pro coaches wouldn’t do that for the most important qualification game… How do you answer your KNVB bosses and the million of fans the day after?
good news about Douglas… I sure hope he plays in Sept cause this will solve a huge headache. I wasn’t sure he can play but if can, solves a big one.
I wouldn’t call Bruma. We tried it. You can’t say Bert didn’t try. Failed miserably.
Douglas will play on the left side, not bad a idea to pair him with Heitinga on the right. You want to minimize changes and introduce new players slowly.
Wiel (can’t stand him but I want to win against Turkey) – Heitinga (Vlaar) – Douglas – Pieters would be my line… Vlaar would be my second choice. I like Ron, has good understanding of space but he is slow.
I wouldn’t call Brouwers, he is older and no less risky than Maduro. I am not sure about Maduro either.
As per De Vrij, there is a match against Andorra in Oct. Try him then …
Janmmat – Douglas – Pieters – X would be my Andorra line up. Then I can send Johnny home for good ! 🙂
vlaar can still defend, this is turkey, not portugal, germany, spain, or argentina we are talking about,
and to minimize his slowness, he has to play tight on a guy, and have nigel de jong in front of him to pick up the other guys and intercept.
we are talking about two games in september, after turkey is hungary a few days later, like 4 days,
so even if in turkey game, things go bad, another chance to make changes,
roel brouwers is 30, but depending on form, he can have a year or two to handle the world cup, i wouldn’t trust him for beyond though, it’s just a simple patch in front to let other guys develop.
and by december, after transfers are made, guys play elsewhere, for other teams and such, re-evaluate the talent.
who knows, maybe nuytinck signs for napoli and sits on the bench, then he goes lower of my list,
maybe maduro all of a sudden starts every game for sevilla does great
maybe strootman has another bad year for psv, Stijn schaars does great,
maybe stijn schaars gets that transfer to inter.
so many multiples, things change quick, literally hundreds of possibilities in defense.
i wouldn’t take Turkey lightly, if we fail this game psychology will be down with Hungary as well.
The issue is these two games, especially Turkey, are two months away. By the time we stop typing, the match will begin.
October, December sure yeah.. plenty of time. The two months away is the issue. Why you are not concerned ? One goal from Turkey in a set up play, then they park the bus, then we are SCREWED. It doesn’t take too much to get screwed. This game is very important …
i’m not worried about turkey as much as others, becasue although they are playing great, they play the same way all the time,
4-3-3, they love to speed down the wings, cross a lot, and with van der wiel and pieters that should not happen, and if we have douglas and vlaar who are tall defenders, the chances of the turks heading a ball in is very low. so as long as everyone does there job, nigel de jong, shuts down any shots from distance, we shouldn’t get scored on by a freak goal. and their full backs love to attack too, so we can launch all attacks from that side,
thats why i mentioned playing 4-4-2 because if someone had huntelaar and van persie up there, and robben comes charging down, past the full back, we all ready have the numbers to destroy the team, or if it’s just van persie and sneijder, then sneijder can spray the field to speed guys.
>i’m not worried about turkey as much as other
were you worried about Denmark as much as others? I bet now …
Wiel on a bad day cannot shut down his own sister 🙂
>so as long as everyone does there job,
yeah, that’s a big assumption there man. If everyone did his job we wouldn’t be out of the euro with 0 points… I like your optimism but there is reality too.
you underestimate Turkey … big mistake to begin with.
Off topic:
If true, makes things easier to hate Germany again 🙂
We are the team to beat. Reus’s proclamation might strike some as arrogant, and it’s true that 1) another team here, Spain, happens to be the reigning world and European champion, 2) Germany hasn’t won a major title since 1996, and 3) Marco Reus may not strike you as a guy who should be talking smack, considering he has started just one game in the tournament.
Contrast the attitude of the Germans with that of Spain, the last camp at Euro 2012 where you will hear anyone say, “We are the team to beat.” This might sound surprising, since Spain is aiming for an unprecedented third straight major title, but the message is clear on all the banners plastered around the team’s camp: LA HISTORIA NO TE HACE CAMPEÓN. LA HUMILDAD SÍ. (History doesn’t make you a champion. Humility does.)
you know revisiting some of our 2012 world cup games (including against brazil), one should not underestimate the value of kuyt.. he and GIO gave us plenty of lifelines and are a big reason we progressed to the final….
At this stage I thought I would be excited to be commenting about Holland’s next game in the semis but instead I am commenting about Holland’s future in Brazil 🙁
If Bert continues it seems like these names will leave the squad…Mathijsen, Bouma, Heitinga, Boulahrouz, Kuyt, Huntelaar y Van der Vaart…and Van Bommel has already retired so if that is the case I expect many new faces.
I watched some videos of Classie he seem like the real deal.
i would keep vdv,huntelaar and kuyt,but the rest can go wherever they want… even these three would be benchwarmers. huntelaar hasn’t proven anything against portugal,he played a half game against germany and hardly touched the ball. aginst denmark he screwed a golden opportunity. technically he’s very limited,not surprising that “technical” teams (real m,milan) didn’t kkep him,and he’s excellent in a more physical (but lesser) league. even with his euro form,i would definitely opt for van persie instead of huntelaar.
with douglas we won’t need matthijsen. heitinga is really average,i’m sure that in the eeredivisie we can easily find better players than him.
*I think the above players have a future but they will have to fight very hard to keep their places against:
Bruma, Maduro, Pieters, Emanuelson, Clasie, Fer, Wijnaldum, Elia, Drenthe, Wolfswinkel, Ola John, Anita, Maher, Viergever, Gouweleeuw, De Vrij, Buttner, Leerdam, Ronnie Stam, Ricardo van Rhijn, Van Aahnholt, Castaignos, Zeefuik, Barazite, Boerrigter, Depay, Beerens, etc….SO YES WE HAVE A BRIGHT FUTURE.
*I think the above players have a future but they will have to fight very hard to keep their places against:
Bruma, Maduro, Pieters, Emanuelson, Clasie, Fer, Wijnaldum, Elia, Drenthe, Wolfswinkel, Ola John, Anita, Maher, Viergever, Gouweleeuw, De Vrij, Buttner, Leerdam, Ronnie Stam, Ricardo van Rhijn, Van Aahnholt, Castaignos, Zeefuik, Barazite, Boerrigter, Depay, Beerens, etc….SO YES WE HAVE A BRIGHT FUTURE.
I find it rediculous that many write-off Boula out, while he did NOT play a single minute in this EC. I actually find him way better than VDW defensively. Can someone tell me what killer defensive mistakes he has ever done. It is true that he is useless offensively, but if the midefiled and attack are doing their job, we don’t need his attacking abilities. Not that VDW’s attacking abilities are like Roberto Carlos! I believe he would have shut-down Ronaldo against Portugal if he would have played instead of VDW. Unlike others (e.g. Persie) who shine for their clubs and suck with the national team, Boula is the other way around. He did a great job in the last WC when he started for the suspended VDW. Next WC 2014, Boula would be 32 years old, which isn’t too bad. He is still fast and built like a rock.
It is crazy to rule out Van Persie … he is still one of the best forwards on the planet. I beleive what Wenger said about him … think about the team around him. It is true that he wasted some big chances but that doesn’t mean he should not play.
In not a big fan of Kuyt but one thing he is a fighter a real team player. with his move to fenerbace he’ll get full game time compared to liverpool where he was used as a sub. I think it’s not all done for Kuyt yet
I don’t think it’s all over for Kuyt… I’ve never been his biggest fan but he is what we need a real team player, a fighter. With his move to Fenerbace he should be a starter and will get a lot of game time unlike at Liverpool last season where he was mostly used as a sub. This can only be good for the Dutch.
bert van marwijk told i think eljero elia that he didn’t want him to go to turkey, because he would be outside the view of his scouts, and in doing so would mean no call ups for holland.
Never was a fan of BvM, not even in 2010. The 2010 WC success came in spite of BvM and not solely because of him. He and the KNVB are leading Oranje into the dark ages with anti-Dutch football that will eventually finish off a golden era, even if it was mostly trophy-less.
Although there must have be enough spoiled brats in the EC Oranje team to fill up a locker room, it’s the coach’s job to manage them. If players need to get axed from the team for BvM to be able to continue, it’ll only be testimony of his incompetence, not the player’s.
I’m sorry for my gloomy prediction but with BvM they will fail to qualify for 2014. With him as a coach everybody will fancy their chances, even Andorra.
Of course the KNVB will not send BvM away after they just signed a contract for at least another 4 more years. The KNVB, who in my opinion already look like fools for doing this just before an important tournament, would prove themselves totally clueless if they let BvM go at this point. It’ll all be politics as usual to save face and not about what would be best for the team.
Here in the states they’ve reported that BVM has resigned. Have to say I’m relieved. The WC in 2010 was great, but I was embarrassed by the way we played in the final. Portugal are doing a lot better vs Spain today.
Hopefully a new director and some new blood get us back to playing amazing football!
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kinda disappointed , honestly .
I just can’t expect something new from Bert , with all respect to his acheivement in 2010 .
I bet we will see the same formation in the first game in the WC qualifiers .
KNVB made a big mistake by renewing Bert’s Contaraction before the Euro .
they Should have waited till after the Euro .
Disappointed. I will see the same conservative mindset, lack of experimentation, and lack of “Plan B”. Looks like the Hunter and VDV are not to be included in the future squad if Bert was to stay.
KNVB is a bunch of spineless bureaucrats. Fuck them and BvM. More boring football and disappointments to follow. Hunter might as well kiss NT goodbye.
I still can’t believe it. Even though I predicted this outcome, deeply I expected to at least hear that BvM tended his resignation. But again he doesn’t look that type of man.
@ Jan : is there any chance this news may be not true ?
As the evaluation will still go on, there is a chance still that they find out he is too headstrong about certain things, sure….
very interesting!!!
a coach who led his team to be out from the first round by playing three bad matches, losing all three without putting a fight! with all the other problems that we know!
in other big football countries,a coach like this would be arrested!
We saw a different Cup.
I saw three matches with a one-goal difference. Each could easily have had a different result.
Three matches lost by a one goal difference is not a good outcome. Good teams manage to win these games. We were simply not good.
Also, this is the oranje with less heart i´ve ever seen. I wanted to shut off the TV before the second half against Portugal. A change is necessary.
This news just makes me sad.
Its because the other teams RESPECTED oranje too much based on past history. Had the known the physical shape of the team, they would have scored 10 more goals.
When Jan posted the interview with the KNVN official, it seemed like he was leaning to keep BVM. I said the same thing in that thread. He wads looking for someone to take blame for vindicating BVM. So if they have already decided to keep him, they just need the time to come up with some sort of investigative report to back their decision.
I personally held the players more responsible for the debacle. However, BVM also failed to take measures to minimize the impact as we have all pointed out here in great detail. With that being said I was hoping for a new and capable coach to start a new chapter with Oranje.
I just can’t see Bert as the coach who will start a new chapter with Oranje with his conservative or ” timid ” selections .
This is upposedly a halfwway evaluation leak so the full evaluation still to be done. Bert could still resign. Or the protest after this leak may cause the knvb or Bert to reconsider.
Bert has very little future, he is being attacked in the press, more stories from what happened in Poland will leak, he lost the vote of some media, especially de Telegraaf is on on a crusade against Bert. They will continue to bring out stories about the team in the coming weeks. It will be very hard for him to go on, and he has lost a lot of credit.
Another option could be that if he loses a qualifier or bad result against turks, or changes too little, he might be forced to resign. There arent many people in Holland who support him now and he cannot afford a single mistake.
In my view, it will be nearly impossible for him to keep going with this pressure.
Hopefully you’re right .
i think we all we have to do is make sure our away strip is not black. the only times i can remember we had a black away jersey we flopped (wc 2002 and ec2012)
Agreed….
We only win tournaments in Orange 😉
I still rate Bert higher than other managers mentioned here. The only able replacement for me would have been Guus.
I am glad Van der Vaart and a few others will no longer be a part of the team.
What makes you say VdV is going anywhere?
i’m assuming this will be the case since his fallout with the coach, no?
Seems like another act in this long Dutch tragedy.
For BvM to survive, he’ll have to kill others — and if he cuts Huntelaar and/or vdV, I think it will be a very bad omen.
KNVB knows that this batch of superstars have a very short shelf-life: It’s do or die in WC2014.
They also know that BvM has figured out the bottom-line — that World/Euro Cups are low-scoring affairs that prize discipline over creativity.
Two holding midfielders made/makes perfect sense in Cups, in almost all cases except Denmark’s. 😉
Terrible decision. No qualification for 2014 and we lose the friendly to Belgium and the game to Turkey.
well done.
As much as I like to see coach change, unless you can find a good coach available. How about replace Bert with Van Gaal or Gullit? Is Co Adriaane available and will he say yes? If Bert stays and he is willing to change tactic, select younger players, ….perhaps it is worth to wait for WC2014. After 2 or 3 bad matches then I will see KNVB fire him.
Oh puhleeaaseeeee — never ever Gullit !!
although I have supported Bert, I am not terribly excited about him staying. On the other hand, the players bear a huge amount of responsibility for the fiasco. Unless there is a better credible plan (like Guus for example), it might be better for Bert to stay for a while.
I am very concerned about the players though. They showed no loyalty to the country/jersey. It will be hard to motivate them. They are not getting any younger. And the big stars are nowhere near their 2010 form (Sneijder / Robben).
So as much as I am concerned about the coach I am more concerned about the players. Are we going to let a few of them go? who is going to replace them?
As per the overall request to play total football, how can you play total football when at most 2-3 out of the 11 are real total footballers? 🙂
You are dead right: that last point is key, Demi. Bert is not a total football guy, and most of these players spend most of their time on teams that aren’t total football teams. What happens when someone like Bert tries to emulate attacking total football with the players he’s chosen, is that you get a horrible Frankenstein monster of Euro 2012, where the backs, mids, and forwards cannot find their way in space or in relation to each other. There’s no quick fix.
First thought, regarding WC quals: The Dutch don’t have a horribly difficult qualifying group for WC 2014, although they start with the toughest opponent of the lot in Turkey.
Second thought, on Euro 2012: This team played Germany, Portugal, and Denmark to one-goal losses (all top-ten, internationally, a brutal pool). They did so in a tournament where: the players were not fit, the squad traveled a half a continent for every game, the subs complained about not starting, the starters split into competing camps, the players quit at the end of each game, the coach made late and ineffective (and nonsensical) substitutions, the coaching staff made no clear adjustments to the horrible gaps in spacing, and the back line played like the Haarlem Girls’ School for the Blind.
Putting it together: All those horrible factors, even if only tweaked a little, will be better in qualifiers. Unless things are even worse than the journalists’ rumors hint, this team will qualify for WC 2014. They could largely play with aneurisms and heart attacks and have a good shot at qualifying; their talent is simply too good to think even an idiot coach would completely deep-six it.
I’m cautiously optimistic at this stage, with or without BvM. More thoughts on his style (or lack thereof) later, though.
I should add to the list of Euro blunders: the front line, especially van Persie, actually went blind when trying to shoot the ball.
can’t recall who did Turkey play against in the friendly right before EC 2012, where they kicked their opponents ars.
So, I don’t think after EC performance Oranje will still be favorite for that game.
So, we should be happy that they only lost with ONE goal?! Puhleeeseeeee! A loss is a loss is a LOSS. This coach needs to go. Clean slate.
Your powers of reading are phenomenal. Let me try again: I stressed that even though the team (players, coach, managers) screwed things up about as badly as they possibly could, they lost to three top ten teams by one goal each.
That fact suggests that against lesser teams, with even a slight improvement in player execution and effort and coach tactics, the team’s results should improve.
I said nothing about Marwijk staying or going. Try to stay focused.
anyone know anything about dirk marcellis? is he a CB option for us?
I want a coach that could say: “F.U, sit your ass down, and act as a team member. I don’t care if you’re Messi or anyone else”. I guess that means Van Gaal… 🙂
my thought: holly fudge!
On the second thought, KNVB maybe feels irrational to fire the person who got his contract extended the day before. So, they are giving him the chance until he fails the very next qualification game, and then they will feel more rational to take him off.
that’s my opinion.
i am hugely dissapointed not only at the decision of KNVB keeping bert but also the fact that bert himself still trying to be in the job..i mean a man of honour who had got 4 yrs to make a good team cudnt do it and to top it off now loosing respect of players shudnt even think his next experiment would be easily implemented…all players including the old and new wud have something or the other to say and thats not a good thing …i can understand how dissapointed huntelaar, vdv and the sneijder group would be knowing they always had some idea of playing football…this wud seriously not motivate anyone…and surely this is the surest way to disaster…
HUP BERT/KNVB HUP 🙂
i can understand how dissapointed huntelaar, vdv and the sneijder group would be knowing they always had some other approach of playing football…this wud seriously not motivate anyone…and surely this is the surest way to disaster…
You guys are all harsh. Bert took us to the final in 2010 and had 2 spotless qualifying campaigns and took us to #1 in the fifa ranking albeit for a short period. Bad results in the past month aside, he’s the best coach we’ve had in a long time. We’ve consistently been the highest goal scoring side for the past few years. If anyone needs to go, Bert should make an example of one or a few of our so called superstars and start from scratch with some team players. He did a good job with a mediocre Feyenoord team not too long ago either. Trust me, Bert is a winner.
Everyone here must be absolutely crazy. I read suggestions for Koeman, Gullit, Van Gaal, Pep… seriously Pep?? Give me a break.
How quickly we all seem to forget the good things Bert did. I suppose that is a typically dutch thing to do.
I agree with you mate, give him another chance! I’m sure he will change his approach and learn from his mistakes. I also think there is no one else available at the moment. I’m sure we will all be praising him come 2014!
I was and still am in favour of changing the coach. However if there are no valid options currently (Rijkaard, Hiddink not available) I would prefer to keep BVM for the time being. He will be forced to do some important changes because VanBommel is out now.
i’m disappointed. with bert oranje will always play ugly football. he had results (world cup final 2010),but the fact that cruyff supported spain against the oranje in the final says everything about the style. in the last two years he hasn’t changed anything,had only 1 nice game during his 4-year reign (against sweden in 2010). two conservative,no new faces,4231,writing this i’m getting more and more angry… he must go. period.
too conservative and not two
Jason,could you tell us what’s wrong with pep? the best coach in the world is not good enough for oranje but bert van marwijk is good? oranje had non dutch coaches in the past,erbst happel,frantisek fradhonc,even the great ajax between 71 and 73 was coached by stephan kovacs. pep would be great,but he won’t coach any team till next summer.
Nothing against Pep but he’s spanish. Not only that but he has only coached Barcelona whihc is probably the easiest job in the world at the moment. I’d prefer a coach who can take an ugly team (a struggling team) and make them awesome.
Just read that CEO van Oostveen stated that BvM tenure is NOT certain as there are still things to be discussed.
So there’s still hope !
sayin that i didn’t enjoy oranje during bert’s reign doesn’t mean other national sides play entertaining football during the euro. i hate to say but the most entertaining football this summer is played by portugal – obviously i will never support them,because i don’t like this team,but sometimes it’s really nice to watch how them playing. spain is a bad copy of barca (i cannot remember too many important barca games that ended 1-0). actually the best football i have seen in the last 4 years by a national side was uruguay last year (copa america).
i recognize bert’s results,but that’s all,never liked his 4231 – marco’s oranje also played 4231,his decisions were questionable,but at least two games will always remain in the memory – agains italy and france in 2008.
love that observation ferenc…i second you…
Whats really in a formation? A 4231 and easily be a 433 if you have the right players assigned with the right instructions. Formations only make any sense when the team sticks to positional play. When has a dutch team ever done that? How we execute the formation is the problem
WOOHOO!
Four more years of HUMILIATION.
Four more years of FAILURE.
Four more years of ROBIN VAN PARSNIP.
Four more years of 4231. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Four more years of ROBBEN ON THE RIGHT WING.
Four more years of VAN BOMBER AND DE WRONG.
Four more years of STIFLED DEVELOPMENT.
Four more years of TACTICAL INCOMPETENCE.
Four more years of PASSIONLESS PLAY.
Four more years of INCOMPREHENSIBLE SUBSTITUTIONS.
Four more years of IN-FIGHTING.
Four more years of FAVOURITISM.
Four more years of STUBBORNESS.
Four more years of EXCUSES.
If the KNVB are stupid enough to think Bert Van Maggotdick will do ANYTHING differently, they deserve the crushing and inevitable failure that is CERTAIN to follow…
The players no longer play for this idiot.
The fans no longer support this fool.
^ IT IS THAT SIMPLE.
This decision, if correctly predicted, will be made PURELY for MONETARY REASONS.
LONG LIVE THE KNVB – fucking Dutch football in the bleeding arsehole since 1889.
what a shame, what an awful news to begin the week with … I hope this is a rumor, otherwise, I think we will be ranked possibly over 50 in the next 4 years ….
I just pray you got it wrong Jan…
Bert should be a ‘ man’ and step down.. he got it all wrong, and if u look at the quality of play ; it has been shit ever since vMarwijk came in charge,, maybe 2 decent games in 4 years…
I dont care who is going to be the next coach.I care more about this big man needs to be more open minded to try out the youngers.And the most important and a must-he needs to be flexible to use different formations,depend on the opponents.Not the 4231 all the way.
I quite fancy the Italian this year,their formations are flexible.Anyway,Hup Holland Hup!!!
I think when it relates to internal matters it is far more difficult to make a fair and comprehensive judgement since nobody has privileged access and even the media can only make assertions based on inside info and observations. So the only real data/fact are results and performances, the reality is that Holland lost 3 games and gained 0 points at EC’12. Performance wise, we saw some good looks and opportunities but the overall performance was horrible. Some high notes are, very good qualifying performances in the run up to WC’10 (second place at this tournament) and EC’12 (crashed out at the tournament). An overall evaluation may result in a moderate and pass note, but the way that they crashed out of EC’12 makes it so imbalance and if its true that Van Marwijk lost control his own players, where does that leave him in terms of leadership and respect. VM will have an uphill battle if he continues, he needs to reverse the opinion of the media, critics, fans and most importantly his own players…
how good is a soccer team? many people answer it differently, but the one i like best, is your only as good as your last match.
when you see form guides, and previews for games, what do they always mention, a teams form going into the game. Going into the belgium game, Holland’s last five games L-L-L-W-W. now do it last ten games L-L-L-W-W-L-L*-W-L-D-L, (* denotes bayern munich) so now what do we have?
Ok maybe friendlies aren’t important, just competitive games, last five competitive games L-L-L-L-W.
Our form is bad, so as a coach, bert is not only in an uphill battle, but he has done very badly.
Every manager has to deal with poor results from time to time. Are you saying sir alex has never dealt with being W-L -L-L-L-L before? Has he been fired recently. At least with bad results Bert HAS to make changes and NOW we can see if he really is a great coach.
what a way to make a depressed fan, even more depressed,
if this is true, lets think about this, in a rational manner, not being angry for the loses,
I think we all saw this coming, the way they used fitness, and everything to say it wasn’t his fault. But you guys forget he’s a coach, it’s his job to make sure the team performs their best in tournaments, and he failed his job, they were out of shape, and played horribly. And if the infighting is true, that was his only bright spot that he can get the egos to perform, and he failed.
The question is why don’t players trust Bert Van Marwijk? is it because of just tactics? obviously with his tactics Holland have been very good, two almost perfect qualifying campaigns. So it must be player selection that has them throwing fits and for many different reasons.
Here is a guy (bert) who’s principles, and him saying in the media, I only like to select players who play regularly for their club teams. So he turns around and selects a guy who didn’t play all year in ibrahim afellay, selects wilfred bouma, Selects the same defense.
which to be honest about the defense, the guy who was supposed to be solid in heitinga, was the one who made the mistakes. Selects an 18 year old who barely played 30 professional games. Come on, Insistence on Van Bommel. I can live with not playing huntelaar, Even though for holland he’s better with service,
it’s a betrayal, i hope they finish the report and find out the bad, I can live with playing your best, and just not being better on that day, i can live with that, but to me, it’s a tough pill to swallow, watching these euro teams, in the quarterfinals, and such, and knowing holland can beat all these teams. Seeing portugal barely struggle to beat czech republic, and if we were in our prime, we would beat them 3-1 no doubt
onzie, I believe the report by KNVB doesn’t have anything to do with football or performance of the team, most likely it has to do with money. These geniuses figure that since they just invested 4 more years onto Bert it makes sense to wait for the investment to provide some return. Who cares about fans and football. Who cares that pretty soon Holland will be out of the top 10 of FIFA! It’s all about $$$.
KNVB invested long term in Bert, Bert loves the money and won’t quit.
Yup, I agree. my previous comment was not a vote of confidence for VM. Just trying to make an objective and fair evaluation of his overall performance, I think he should take responsibility of what has happened and resign. My take and being delusional to the max, Van Marwijk was surprised to encounter two groups of players who wanted to play differently, lost control of the situation (become radical and rebel) and was just too late to make any drastic changes as it would result in public disclosure and lost of confidence. He said and did nothing when Huntelaar came out with very strong statements, can’t imagine that happening with Fergusan and Mourinho. They would have just given klass a boarding pass home
i think he’s a guy lost of ideas, he has no clue what to do anymore, kind of like a one trick pony, or a guy who has one good move, and when it fails, he struggles to make changes to make it work.
from the interview, looks like holland will schedule friendlies in asia, and south america to make up for the lost income.
I think change is good, we need stronger personality, with organic thoughts, and can say no to big names and yes to young talents,
I want us to play football again, I want strategy for the national team vision, and mission, we need managers apply this vision and not make theirs and screw again,
Bert must leave, change is motivating, new era new leader
We need someone who can tell “stars” like Van Persie and Afellay simply SHUT THE FUCK UP or you are out of the team.
I don’t see BvM doing that.
Agree. It’s time for brass tacks–don’t coddle anybody; play the best young players starting now; get a bead on personnel and best positions; and then build chemistry–which I think is important for teams like the Dutch that have a lot of players on a lot of different club teams, unlike Spain and Germany.
horrible news of the day……pray that it doesnt happen
I want to see BVM out but if the decision is made to keep him I will rally behind Oranje as always and give my 100% support!!!!!
I hope changes with selection, attitude and tactics are made and we fly to new highs!!!!!
@Jason. Seriously, Pep. Philosophy, tactics and psychology. With him I wouldn’t have to watch Nigel de Jong or useless Van Persie on the pitch I guess.
Yeah Jason, why are you dissing Guardiola, who’s probably the best head coach in the last decade?
What else does Pep have on his resume as far as coaching is concerned? He’s coached Barca which is like coaching the New York Yankees. Its the easiest coaching job on the planet.
I personally think Bert no matter what the dutch officials tell him to do won’t change his tactic, formation and will keep the same playing list and wont be willing to bring in the next generation and without changes in these areas we can’t move forward.
Also ManUare keep on making a move for young Jetro
http://whatculture.com/sport/man-utd-transfer-news-dutch-star-jetro-willems-in-10-million-move.php
big mistake for jetro willems, he won’t get playing time, he will have to be loaned back to the eredivisie, or loaned to a championship team. with evra and the twin brazilians in front of him, i don’t see him getting playing time
I totally agree onzie, just like what’s happened with Bruma & van Aanholt’s move to Chelsea.
Gee shocking spelling, was meant to be… ManU are keen
I think it’s too early for us to be responding to this right now. For one, as Jan says, it’s a leak before the final result of the review is handed down. It may not be true (just like how the Guardian’s football writers were reporting that Bert was going to use Kuyt as a wingback before the Germany game).
Furthermore, we don’t know what the other results of the review are yet. We all have made our conclusions about what went wrong, maybe Bert has done the same? If he, for example, is able to identify what went wrong, including what mistakes he made, and can provide to the KNVB a plan to make sure this doesn’t happen again, then maybe he deserves a second chance.
We are also all speculating who is the mole, which players have caused problems etc. At the moment this is all speculation (unlike with France and Nasri, where there is clear proof). The review may also reveal this – it is just too early to say,
Van Marwijk?
HOU JE BEK, MAN!
Jan, this had better be a wind up.
I’m sure our under-performing nancy boys gave him a rousing vote of confidence. They are all guaranteed squad members under this fucking clown. Is this the best Holland has? Hahaha. No fucking chance! This is about MONEY. Plain and simple.
We are broken. Humiliated. And still arrogant.
Look out, world!
Here come the Oranje.
There is no confirmation of this either in the Telegraaf or VI so not sure this news is accurate. But even if it is, and even if I am not that keen on keeping Bert, it may be the best decision the KNVB is able to make. There is nobody else available at the moment. He had a major wake up call and I am sure he will address some of the issues that we all have been raising.
disgraceful, tasteless, shocked, surprised…like covering shit with piss. No matter what angle you use to see it is fantastically stupid! He does not have the backing of players anymore. He does not have the tactical ingenuity nor the iron fist to shape up this unfit outfit. Simply put, it is a shame to let the next generation of players fall in the hands of a man who we know will stick to his beloved 4231 and we know will always depend on players. A savy manager is someone who regardless of the team can mould something out of nothing. SAdly Bert is not it.
Let the ERA of DOMENECH II continue…
lets hope what they are doing, is leaking it out to see the public reaction., and if the fans complain and rebel, they fire him.
Wow that would be an odd decision.
It’s actually 4 losses in a row in competitive matches.
And it was a lot of clear foul ups. Basic logistical, tactical mistakes. And the giving up. At the end of every game – it seemed that he and the team gave up. Disgraceful – you’re facing 2 of KNVB’s biggest rivals – and you don’t just play for pride?
I think BvM’s conservative tendencies worked out reasonably well after Van Baasten when a lot of egos were bruised. But now when there will be a huge amount of shuffling needed – the lack of experimentation will be deadlly.
Note on age – it is highly variable and unpredictable. In general fitness nuts who don’t get injured can last into their early thirties – but only a very few are still at the top. Most stars peak at 26-27. And most superstars are capable of joining the bigs at 20-21. But again voetbal is littered with talents who were rushed and burned out.
Would love it if Nederland banned selling any players 18 and under. Because developing the next generation takes focus and time.
If there is no good coach available what do you do after sacking Bert? I’m with Al. I would like to see Bert being replaced, but at what cost? If there is no good coach available, assuming we hire Van Gaal and fail to qualify for WC 2014, isn’t that more disastrous? The goal is very simple now, qualify for WC 2014. Perhaps KNVB give him at least 3-4 WC qualification matches to show. This means more time for them to find a coach just in case and for Bert to prove his worth. This is my guess.
If what Demi said is true then it does not matter what coach we have, we cannot play total football. I sincerely do not think it is possible. I was just hoping that we can play 4-3-3, pressing opponents, move up and down the field as one unit. These players cannot interchange position like the 74 team and no other team comes close.
Now we just have to wait for the first friendly to see player selection and what tactic does Bert has. Van Bommel already announced that he does not deserve a spot. Let’s see who else is joining him.
To everyone who thinks we should let BvM try a few matches in the WC2014 qualifying campaing and see how it goes: are you mental?
If we lose the first 2-3 matches or lose the victories again the weakest opponents, we have almost no chance of qualifying. Rest assured, Turkey will not give any points away. Last time we were together with Romania in the qualifiers, they topped the group. It’s simple: we have no time to spare. Either we need a new coach and a new game plan, or we stick with Bert and try to kick some of the old players off the team and get a new defense/midfield setup.
Confirmation links:
http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Sport/342313/KNVB-ontslaat-Bert-van-Marwijk-niet-als-bondscoach.htm
Kiss KJH good-bye:
http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Sport/342313/KNVB-ontslaat-Bert-van-Marwijk-niet-als-bondscoach.htm
Opera “Domenech II” has just started. It is exactly same situation. For some reason I believed dutch are smarter than french. Stupid me.
There was a chance 4 yrs ago to hire Foppe which now is gone forever. BUT, still to say that there are no other coaches available is ridiculous. At this stage anyone, anyone would be able to do a better job than Mister Big Money.
I thought the decision about Bert was supposed to be made on July 6. Looks like that was a hogwash. I don’t understand why KNVB is blindly copying the French formula of 2008-2010 by persisting with a failed coach (like Domenech) just because in the past he somehow (by luck) took a team to the WC final. If the same set of players are retained, then either Holland won’t even qualify for 2014 WC and if they somehow do, will be knocked out in the first round like France in 2010.
I posted this in the previous thread. Frankly, I am now scared of my predictions. Looks like the bad ones always come true.
Although I want to BvM resign and believe another coach would be preferable – I can’t agree Balkan that he’s Domenech. He guided a team very successfully in one huge tournament – making some huge calls that turned out well.
Not many coaches for any national team can point to beating Brazil.
Domenech wasted more talent than any other coach I can think of.
Well Samuel, Domenech did beat Brazil in 2006 WC QF (actually Zidane did). Exactly the same place where Bert did. I honestly feel that Brazil lost that game against us rather than Oranje winning it. Please don’t get me wrong, July 2, 2010 (the day when Holland beat Brazil) is still one of the happiest days in my life but when I look back at that game one thing that really stands out is LUCK. We did play pretty awfully the whole first half and even after we were up 2-1, I still can’t digest that miss from Huntelaar and Robben….It was comical. In contrast, France did dominate Brazil in the 2006 WC
Samuel, as far as I remember Domenech took France to 2006 final as well where he only lost on penalties. Then came 2008 and then the disaster of 2010. The record between the 2 of them is the same this far, hence the comparison. What’s more similar is the refusal to admit mistakes (at least so far) and try to hand down a resignation. Transferring the blame on to players for the fiasco doesn’t bode well for the future.
Cruyff says problems begin “at the top.”
http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/columns/johan_cruijff/12420213/__Cruijff__Probleem_aan_top__.html
He says Jetro Willems’ debut was the lone bright spot for us at EC.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/3284/euro-2012/2012/06/25/3199133/we-are-evaluating-what-went-wrong-at-euro-2012-says-head-of
http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/netherlands/euro-2012/news/van-marwijk-set-to-continue-as-boss_32120.html
don’t know validity of it, but sounds bad,
“We have a contract with the coach until 2016. It is our intention to continue with him, so that he can work with a renewed Dutch squad for Euro 2016 in France.” Bert van Oostveen
so what happened about winning the world cup? why talking abotu the 2016 euros
saying they will investigate what went wrong only, nothing else. he will see the contract out, not a time to be cheap
i’m guessing, with this, not much will change, after they find out the mole, only changes we can expect are douglas in, and someone to take the role next to nigel de jong,
no way, no chance they can’t not blame him for the lack of preparation, the team selecting, others.
I hope maduro performs well for sevilla, then we can have a douglas and maduro central defense partnership
Pieters will probably be left back, and van der wiel left back
I wonder who will be next to nigel de jong in defensive midfield, i’m guessing rafa van der vaart, Or strootman. Maybe if afellay plays there for barcelona a lot, maybe we can get him there, or he moves to arsenal or something.
Who will be on the wings? Robben for sure, but afellay again? hopefully elia does well in whatever new club he goes to.
For sure though, Emanuelson is done for, questioning bert
i think emmanoulson would replace vdv.. he is quicker than vdv.
Not impressed with Emmanuelson. Saw him play a lot last season with Milan. He is young and more active than VDV. He is a decent player but VDV is definitely more talented than him. VDV needs to accept his role no matter who is the coach and let his performance speak for him. There are so many games where he is absent or not effective at all. If he can give his best whenever he’s on the field, he will definitely have two more years on this team till the next WC.
If we are able to find better defenders, VDV would definitely get more opportunities as we won’t need to play with two defensive midfielders.
According to Volkskrant last night, VdV and Hunter can kiss NT goodbye. Same with Emanuelson. These are the players that will pay for the catastrophic failure of Bert. I wouldn’t be surprised if those 2 are blamed for the poisoned atmosphere in oranje camp.
but useless v.Persie will continue to be chosen?
San Marino isn’t in our group this time around… when will he score? Maybe Estonia
van Persie must take the blame for the failure to win the EK and WK2010. Oranje with a CF that doesnt score goals – thats more un-Dutch than 4-2-3-1.
All these EPL and Gunners fans raving about RVP’s goal scoring ability when he goes AWOL for Oranje.
WK2010 everyone cries about Sneijder and Robben being too selfish and wouldnt pass to him and those 2 make up for his inability to find space and score goals – Sneijder and Robben found a way – yes we all know about Arjens failure to beat Casillas’ lucky boot tip…blah blah blah….
The fact is that they saved criticism of RVP by scoring the goals themselves – Wes practically got us to the final by himself….
EK2012….This time he has more chances than Spain makes passes in a game and still he fails to score. Sneijder passes to him all game long – and when RVP goes AWOL yet again – Sneijder and Robben try to replicate their goal scoring feats of 2012 but overcompensate – the CF SHOULD BE SCORING GOALS….
But no….
Its Huntelaars fault for causing angst and VDV’s fault for unbalancing the team….RVP MUST GO!…Bert can stay, he gets results, RVP can go all he does is NOTHING!!!!
Never ever should a single player or even a couple get blamed for the failures of a team. It is the coach’s job to come up with the tactics needed and select players accordingly. If the coach chooses the wrong tactics and/or the wrong players for the job, it’s the coach that should take the blame for the failure. If the same team with the quality to reach the WC finals, miserably fails 3 times in a row it cannot be anybody’s fault but the coach’s. It’s his job to turn things around in either tactics and/or selection to make the team work again.
BvM might have devised some clever plan to make Oranje be able to go further than usual in a tournament, it is a very, very narrow and conservative plan with no room for deviation. Besides that he is not a coach in any shape or form on NT level. Period.
He doesnt need to score….
He holds up the ball really well….
*sarcasm*
emanuelson said bert van marwijk was a joke for not picking him, or something along the lines of he lost respect for him, and couldn’t take him seriously anymore, so i doubt he will be selected
I hope not the same set of players is retained. I would like to see some core players are retained and introducing more younger players. Who is the coach that you think should replace Bert? Is this coach available? Most importantly is this coach willing to take the job offer? I read that Frank De Boer already turned it down (so did Verbeek). Hiddink and Rijkaard under contract. Does KNVB has ball to hire non Dutch coach? I can bet you that they do not have ball. They need to buy some time to find the coach and right now, not many coach is interested in coaching this squad, so we live with this situation at least to the end of this year.
end of the year? end of the world cup, because if bert keeps up the form, and we lose to turkey, and drop games vs romania and such, we are in deep trouble. Bert won’t get fired during the qualifications if we are winning, and if we are losing during qualifications, he gets fired, he still gets paid, we don’t go to brazil, and dutch players can take a vakantie to aruba and curacao like in 2002. this is a very risky.
I suspect most likely, 4-2-3-1 will remain king, all the players will still have there spots unless someone is way better than them. So besides douglas taking a spot, and van bommel spot left open, there won’t be a change.
Huntelaar might as well go into international retirement, and emanuelson can kiss any chance to play until 2016
Guys lets wait for the final decision. We’re jumping the gun. In any case Bert’s removal should always be assessed in terms of the quality of his replacement. Right now many of our preferred choices are not available. And stop the shit about Pep. We should never get a foreign coach. That would be the worst tragedy for Dutch football. The fact that we had a foreign coach 40 years ago is irrelevant. Those days we were nothing. Today we are a footballing power. Can you imagine Spain, Germany or Italy with a foreigner coach ? Stop the nonsense.
I want a Dutch coach indeed.
TBH though I cringe when I see Advocaat, Hiddink etc. coaching foreign countries, somehow it just feels wrong xD.
There are so many different layers of problems we’re facing now: BvM, system, player mentality, even KNVB (?). Abrupt manager change may be as bad as no change: keeping BvM, minimal system/players changes. We may need another “failure” for KNVB to really make drastical changes (or if they themselves need to change their approaches too).
Personally not the best outlook for 2014 but still bleeding and will always bleed Oranje, obviously. Hoping for the best.
Agree with AL, better to wait and see the final result of the evaluation process. Sometimes, you’ll get a leak that is framed ambiguously because those making the decision want to take the outside temperature. If there is a huge outcry in the Netherlands over this, I can’t imagine that either the decision makers would want to take the heat, or that BVM himself would want to stay.
I said before and I’ll say it again. Many players need to be weeded out and a more balanced team (young and experienced players) need to be formed. If the center of the defence can be fixed by replacing Mathijssen and possibly Heitinga – the whole team formation would change.
If the players want to play 4-2-3-1 then they will play this UNDER ANY COACH!
The new team should be built around Sneijder so that he is the main leader on the pitch. I would think NDJ and Steks also need to be leaders.
You all need to stop bashing BvM, you can only make lemonade if you’re handed lemons. But he had a rusty Sneijder, a not-so-confident Robben, and a crippled Mathijjsen. Should he have experimented? Maybe. But let us all admit that if he had experimented and it backfired, you would all have demanded his head! Yes you would have. The truth of the matter is, they made it to the WC final and anything less than winning the Euro would have been a step in the opposite direction.
Here’s all the players that played less than a full season:
1. Sneijder
2. Robben
3. Afellay
4. Mathissen
5. VDWeil
6. NDJ was used as a sub most of the season
7. Steks
8. Hunter
9. VDV
>You all need to stop bashing BvM, you can only make lemonade if you’re handed lemons.
he was handed mostly “lemons” 🙂
i love the quote from paul rudd’s character as a surfing instructor in the film forgetting sarah marshall
“when life gives you lemons, Fuck the lemons and bail!”
seriously, he wasn’t handed lemons, he picked lemons, he could have bailed on all the drama and picked better players.
I think the entire generation that he dealt with was not the best ever. But you know, we will see if there are any better players after all.
I don’t think BvM will stay in the job for too long. So a new guy will come. How that will give form back to Sneijder/Robin/Arjen remains to be seen. I am not having high hopes.
Don’t forget how many requests were made and granted.
1. Get Kuyt off
2. Play with 1 holding
3. Put Hunter and vP at the same time.
major requests that he granted. And the results were not any better, they were worse.
So, I am not having high hopes if different player selection is/will be made. The new generation is not ready.
But then again, we will find out….
i don’t know who really requested him to take off kuyt in the media, besides van persie in 2010 wanting van der vaart instead of him.
but they did play with one holding midfielder a few times in qualification to great success, the games against hungary, and played with huntelaar and van persie great.
and the first 20 minutes agains portugal we did great, and the requests were not granted, he didn’t want to play with huntelaar and van persie, he waited too long till the 70th minute against denmark, lost that game, then at half time when down 2-0 to germany, and that second half we did score!
and then the last game when we already lost 2 games, he plays them, and we got the second goal scored on because he took willems off for affellay, and mathijsen didn’t move to the side, so it was like playing a 4 man defense with no left back.
the whole thing with the new generation is that they have a solid 25 good players to choose from, and if from that 25, they can’t find at least 5 good enough to fill in holes, then we will be in bigger trouble
but the odds are on our side, plenty of guys are ready to make the jump, and we have plenty of other guys who didn’t get to play, that have proven before to be capable of many great things like elia.
just to chip in a few points here, and we will see how the new ones will do later:
>i don’t know who really requested him to take off kuyt
almost everyone on this board for the last 6 months 🙂
>and the first 20 minutes agains portugal we did great,
we did even better in the first 20′ against Germany with the classic 4-2-3-1 vB and DeJong. Both games, we failed. And in both games the other team could have scored half a dozen more.
>and we got the second goal scored on because he took willems off for affellay
true but by that time Steks and the goalposts had saved another 3 or 4 🙂
>the games against hungary
come on, against “hungary” ? that is a little better than training 🙂 we did great against Northern Irland just before the Euro.
the only times we did well in real serious games were playing the 4-2-3-1 that nobody here likes with Mark and Nigel controlling the midfield. It doesn’t work anymore for many reasons but that doesn’t automaticall mean newer selections will do good for sure. Most of the guys mentioned play in unproven leagues … Don’t get me wrong, I wish the new gen is the best. I really hope they do better. But the last gen was not that great, they overachieved only when they played the system everyone hates.
well in the media, who requested him get taken off? I wasn’t really paying attention to these boards, I only recently started reading the forum part of the blog,
i personally have always liked kuyt.
on the part about the first 20 minutes, van bommel cost us the first goal,
the 4-2-3-1 doesn’t work anymore for various reasons yes, i agree on that, i believe it’s age.
did you see that 4-0 against hungary, that was pure domination. ANd the 5-3 showed we can come back and score almost at will. and what about the game against sweden that we won.
and this whole unproven leagues i don’t like, because ok, lets say you don’t rate the eredivisie highly, but you know what, ajax played 6 champions league games, and two europa league. Other dutch teams played europa league, against teams from “proven leagues”
Europa leagues does have teams from proven leagues. Talent is talent, and we are seeing the next generation wanted by other teams in proven leagues.
the only thing I am saying is that the Eredivisie players are talents that may or may *not* prove any better than established players who play in the major leagues.
you are simply hoping (and so am I) that Nuytinck or Gouweleeuw will do better than Heitinga/Joris. But I am just pointing out the difference between hope and subsequent reality.
I think the Eredivisie playing level is ok but cannot be compared to EPL/La Liga etc.
my view is that trying these players is simply counting on hope, and there is nothing wrong with it, other than believing it is more that hope …
as long as you understand the risks you are taking, then ok. But if you were a professional coach like Bert of whoever else replaces him now or later, would you not select EPL players like Heitinga and you would prefer a talent like Nuytinck ? I don’t think any Oranje coach would have done that…
I sure hope they develop to be world class players but I know this is just hope for now….
dude, i would be worst coach ever, i would try out lots of players, and schedule lots of friendlies, and i prefer a team to adapt to the opponent and beat the opponent.
all i’m saying, is it’s not hope, it’s odds, i’m not putting hope in one or two players, i’m putting hope that in a group of lots of players, the odds should be that world class talents will emerge, they always do.
Oops Guys – I totally forgot about Domenech coaching in 2006.
And yes, I guess in that tournament he did just what BvM did in 2010 – let his stars ride and see what happens.
Great (my thoughts as I connect to this site and read that headline). Though I’m not surprised. But there BETTER be some changes.
Retire: v.Bommel, Mathijsen, Bouma, Braafheid, Babel (never to be considered again with respect to Joris/MVB)
Drop: v.Persie, Afellay, Heitinga, VdW, NDJ, Vlaar, Boulahrouz, Kuyt (all can be reselected if attitude or form is better)
Oranje 23:
————-Stekelenburg————-
Janmaat — Bruma — Douglas — Pieters
——– Fer ——– Strootman ——
————- Sneijder (c) ———–
– Narsingh — Huntelaar — Robben —
Subs: Krul, Vorm, (Gouweleeuw or De Vrij), Viergever, Willems, Schaars, Clasie, Maher, VdV, (Ola John or Elia (new club/regular starter), v. Wolfswinkel, Luuk De Jong
I understand the changes I’ve made are drastic so I don’t expect it all to happen. I will watch the next few games with Bert in charge and if it’s the “same shit, different day” I’m not going to torture myself watching this boring, unimaginative, side to side football.
“It’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game” and the way we’ve played is unwatchable for me. If we play well as a team the wins will follow.
Gigi Buffon yesterday was amazing. From the singing of the Italian national anthem to the end of the penalties, he showed so much passion and unbelievable leadership in that team. He was so hyped up and was in total control.
IMHO, that’s what our goalkeepers need. We need Steks to scream like hell into his defenders when they make a mistake or praise them when they make a good stop. Steks looks too much like a nice guy. He needs to really add passion and be more vocal.
Pirlo was just pure class. He was so calm and controlled but he run that team like a victorious war general. The Italians may be eliminated by the Germans on Thursday but they showed so much team unity and love for their national shirt. Whether they win or lose, they’ll go home with their heads held high looking at their performance so far. They came with so much negativity and drama surrounding their squad, it’s amazing how they put that aside once the whistle blows and game starts.
Our players and coaches need to learn that before we can be successful. Just assembling superstars is no recipe for success. I’m sure they can look at England for that.
@Onzie,
I was really wondering why Maduro was not picked. He had a lot of experience with Valencia and is not going to play for Sevilla. Those are the top two teams in Spain, next to Barca and RM.
I know he was injured but so was Afellay. I don’t know if BVM gave him any consideration and support like he did with Afellay.
He is still relatively young. He is in no way a world-class defender but he’ll be a massive upgrade over Mathijsen. If he is fit and ready in September, he should definitely start for our qualifiers. Vlaar is still too raw and unrefined. Hopefully Douglas can also be integrated.
If those two defenders along with Pieters are able to take over, I’d feel a lot more confident of our chances. VDW definitely need competition. He has actually deteriorated since WC 2014. Maybe he feels like he’s guaranteed a spot.
Bottomline, if we solve our defensive crisis and make them at least competent if not world-class, there will not be any need to play with 2 defensive midfielders. We can bring in VDV or Hunter into the lineup and play a more fluid and attacking style. That in itself would solve a lot of problems.
maduro was injured so didn’t play much for valencia, but then again, bert selected afellay who had the same story.
i am hoping maduro plays for sevilla, he signed with them, so he’s a member of the team for next year. offensively sevilla is great, but they underperformed to finish 9th in la liga, but they have jesus navas, negredo, ivan ratickic, and german trochowski
forgot something extra, i won’t pretend to be an expert on sevilla, i only saw them two times, a 2-1 victory over malaga, and a 6-2 loss to real madrid, but they had martin caseras, defender from uruguay, the guy who kicked de zeeuw, and he left to juventus, and they only signed maduro, so i think it’s a good chance, maduro will have a chance to start regularly, and if he doesn’t, well he messed it up for himself
Sevilla are my favourite Spanish team, so I tend to follow them a little. They actually have a bit of a glut of central defenders – Fazio, Escude, Spahic and Alexis all play there. Caceres (really a right back) played at Juventus last season.
When I read that Maduro signed for Sevilla, I assumed it would actually be to play as a defensive midfielder – Guarente and Medel play in midfield but they aren’t really ball-winning midfielders.
This might not be good for the Dutch team though.
WHAT WHAT WHAT!!!
This is clearly about money, the KNVB is trapped financially in a contract with BvM so they are keeping him on.
Here’s a fun mashup of Douglas highlights. He’s got to be in the mix for 2014.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhbYUmKZAlQ
He cant be Dutch, he plays with too much heart!!!!!!
Onzie, that is not what Urby said. He complained that he found he was left out of the squad via the internet and never received a call from Bert. Bert has since called and apologized. Big difference with what you said.
i’m getting angry now at goal.com, i’m not gonna listen to anything they say, i remember clearly reading that he said in quotes bert van marwijk was a “joke” that he wasn’t selected. and that he only tried out emanuelson for midfielder, not left back, and sent him off without telling him anything.
OranjeBoom: Estonia (my home country) finished second in the group for EC2012 after Italy. Don’t count on any easy games here.
Just for fun, the youngest player of Netherlands Antilles descent, playing in the Jupiler League, Cerilio Cijntje:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVCGFTXmt10&feature=related
Well f me. We haven’t got a chance. We have another 4 years of 4-2-3-1 and anti-football thuggery.
I’m not going to invest any sort of emotion into this team until the KNVB returns to their attacking past.
As Johan Cruyff has said about football “Enjoying the games Barcelon play is simply more important then only winning”. Once we return to that philosophy then I will be excited again about Holland.
My sentiments exactly!
100%
at least Vpersie can operate outside the box and can somewhat defend. i am just as frustrated as the next person about vpersie but i’m not ready to give up on him completely just yet.
Vdv and hunter can leave th Dutch camp asap if it were up to me. time for new guys in the setup.
Why Ajax prefer Nuytinck over Gouweleeuw to replace vergthongen?
Any news?
at least vpersie can operate outside the box and somewhat defend. i’m just as frustrated as the next person about vpersie but am not ready to completely give up on him just yet.
hunter and vdv are finished in my book especially vdv who does nothing but moan and bitch
Why Ajax prefer Nuytinck over Gouweleeuw to replace vergthongen?
honestly don’t know, but seems nuytinck is better, he’s playing on dutch youth teams, he has borussia monglendbach (4th in bundesliga, playoff away from champions league) after him, along with west bromwich albion in the EPL, and juventus and Napoli seem after him. along with ajax
thats 3 champions league teams (technically the play off counts as CL)
a mid level english team, and dutch champions after his signature
if thats any indication, he’s good, very good, maybe even better than gouweleeuw,
but gouweleeuw is at a club with van basten, maybe he learns something, i don’t know how from a striker, but yeah.
Maybe because Nuytinck is left sided and left footed like Vertonghen,Gouweleeuw is not.
VI Oranje reports that Bert is done with:
Mathijsen, Bouma, Heitinga, Boulahrouz, Van Bommel, Kuyt, Huntelaar en Van der Vaart.
They also said knvb might still be positive but Bert himself is considering resignment and thinks he failed.
can i get a link.
(Dutch) http://www.voetbalzone.nl/doc.asp?uid=167950
thanks, my dutch is not very good, born in miami to parents of dutch origins (curacao and aruba), but doesn’t it say he will continue with the world cup till 2014, but man
those names are big being left out.
that means a new center back pairing will be picked,
I’m guessing vlaar and douglas for now, with maduro in the squad,
I don’t know about Huntelaar and VDV being “done.” Its probable that they are “done” with BVM, as Van Bommel was with MVB, but with a new coach…do you really want to write off talent? Its a small country and depth is an issue. If you start RVP at striker and he gets hurt, do you say you won’t pick Hunter? To me, these guys are “done” when they can’t be of use to the team in any situation…if they have mentally checked out, thats one thing. But give them a season and good form and we might be demanding them.
I’d like to see a system where younger, more physical and active mf’s such as Strootman, Classie, Anita, Fer, Maher play in service of Sneijder in the MF and leave him free to distribute it to players like Robben or Hunter/RVP, maybe Narsingh up front; these are guys who will push the ball forward, track back, retrieve the ball, pressure the other side, and make runs into the box…In the Euro’s the team looked to be built in the classic “too many chiefs, not enough indians” mode. too many players who wanted to be “free” of defensive responsibility. Sneijder needs to be the “guy” but for him to be there, he needs the workers, and the guys I mentioned can be those players…In defense, I like the idea of Strootman as a sweeper. with so many teams playing only one striker, why not have Douglas man marking, and leave Strootman free at the back?
seems serious that alexander buttner will leave to queens park rangers or fulham, since he was given a tour by both teams
http://www.vi.nl/nieuws/223411/Londense-PLclubs-doen-bod-op-Vitesseback-Buttner.htm
Apparently JC wanted to clean up KNVB the way he did with Ajax (from goal.com translating Del Telegraaf).
“Every problem starts at the top,” Cruyff wrote in his column for Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. “There have been huge mistakes. Especially in the last year. Our performances went downhill, and no measures were taken. Many teams have taken more and more characteristics of Dutch football, and we were pretty much the only team not to. What happened at the European Championship was a result of two years earlier [at the World Cup].”
The 65-year-old concluded the article on a positive note, however: “The only bright spot was the debut of Jetro Willems. That is the only innovations I have seen from the Dutch team.”
So which team is playing more Dutch? Spain, Germany? Which are the rest? He blamed star players earlier but so far I noted that he did not comment about Bert. I bet he still did not like Bert for playing counter attack football. JC thinks Bert got lucky in 2010 and we all know that yes, luck is a part of winning. They got as far as JC’s team in 74 but of course eliminate a group of fans as well instead of adding more fans. Perhaps JC will say who is the best candidate to coach Oranje next.
Same goal.com site suggests many players will be dropped (old players + Heitinga, VDV and Hunter) if Bert remains the coach. Some already mentioned Bert also considered resign. Of course we still treat all as rumours until we hear from KNVB.
I checked FIFA calendar. We have 4 WC 2014 games this year. Turkey (Sep 07) Hungary (Sep 11) Andorra (Oct 12) Romania (Oct 16). After that winter break till Mar 22 Estonia. Belgium friendly should be a good test. If Bert stay I say give him 3 games (Belgium, Turkey, Hungary). If it does not work fire him and at least you have from now till then to line up his replacement and give his replacement a month to prepare for Andorra (should be a good start for a new coach).
question:
you have a game against Turkey on Sep 7. Would you drop Heitinga, regardless of what he did in and out of the field?
What if his replacement is even worse?
Forget that Bert is the coach, let’s say it is you or someone else. Someone who has a contract saying you have to professionally select players and try for the best.
So what do you do ? I also want to shoot Heitinga but what do you do if you are the real coach and not an internet coach ?
why is there only one replacement, there is one friendly with belgium.
you have two centerback positions,
plus club form, We will be trying out douglas, next to who? don’t know,
hypothetically speaking,
I’d pair douglas and Maduro, see how it goes against belgium,
call up vlaar along with de vrij, They partner with each other for feyenoord,
if they (douglas and maduro) bomb, I have vlaar and de vrij together,
play two holding midfielders for cover.
Mathijsen still is at malaga, if he’s healthy he’s a short term replacement with two holding midfielders. the result is what matters.
in order i got douglas, maduro, Mathijsen, Vlaar, De vrij
in holding role, i have nigel de jong, partner with vurnon anita or strootman.
it’s good enough to win that game, i care about the results. attacking football will come with time.
I personally like what oscar tabarez does with uruguay national team, He alters formations to counter his opponents,
Turkey likes to line up in a 4-3-3
a simple 4-4-2 can do great, especially with topal or inan being the central midfielder,
the two strikers would have to willing to put in hard work, running the channels, I can see myself having a team with kuyt and robben on the wings, deep with robben launching quick attacks, near the passing duo of sneijder and van persie if need be.
i dont think you have Douglas for that game. Mathijsen might not be avail either, due to age or injury. Even if he was Vlaar/Mathijsen are slower than snails …
So you are left with Maduro, Vlaar and De Vrij. With Maduro/Vlaar being your first choice.
And you don’t call Heitinga… You like Russian roulette bro, but most pro coaches wouldn’t do that for the most important qualification game… How do you answer your KNVB bosses and the million of fans the day after?
douglas is allowed to play for holland in august,
so unless douglas has an injury, then no,
and if mathijsen is not available due to injury, or age,
I still have boulahrouz, roel brouwers, with maduro vlaar, de vrij, with bruma as an option too, although he didn’t do well versus sweden.
and i have viergever,
so even by august, mathijsen says, he no longer plays for holland due to age, and douglas is injured,
I still have second best defender in bundesliga in brouwers, I have maduro who might be starting for sevilla, even then, if not
i put vlaar on the left side with nigel de jong to provide cover, since pieters will be left on his lonesome, probably to fend himself against emre
http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/douglas-wont-play-holland-euro-2012
good news about Douglas… I sure hope he plays in Sept cause this will solve a huge headache. I wasn’t sure he can play but if can, solves a big one.
I wouldn’t call Bruma. We tried it. You can’t say Bert didn’t try. Failed miserably.
Douglas will play on the left side, not bad a idea to pair him with Heitinga on the right. You want to minimize changes and introduce new players slowly.
Wiel (can’t stand him but I want to win against Turkey) – Heitinga (Vlaar) – Douglas – Pieters would be my line… Vlaar would be my second choice. I like Ron, has good understanding of space but he is slow.
I wouldn’t call Brouwers, he is older and no less risky than Maduro. I am not sure about Maduro either.
As per De Vrij, there is a match against Andorra in Oct. Try him then …
Janmmat – Douglas – Pieters – X would be my Andorra line up. Then I can send Johnny home for good ! 🙂
vlaar can still defend, this is turkey, not portugal, germany, spain, or argentina we are talking about,
and to minimize his slowness, he has to play tight on a guy, and have nigel de jong in front of him to pick up the other guys and intercept.
we are talking about two games in september, after turkey is hungary a few days later, like 4 days,
so even if in turkey game, things go bad, another chance to make changes,
roel brouwers is 30, but depending on form, he can have a year or two to handle the world cup, i wouldn’t trust him for beyond though, it’s just a simple patch in front to let other guys develop.
and by december, after transfers are made, guys play elsewhere, for other teams and such, re-evaluate the talent.
who knows, maybe nuytinck signs for napoli and sits on the bench, then he goes lower of my list,
maybe maduro all of a sudden starts every game for sevilla does great
maybe strootman has another bad year for psv, Stijn schaars does great,
maybe stijn schaars gets that transfer to inter.
so many multiples, things change quick, literally hundreds of possibilities in defense.
i wouldn’t take Turkey lightly, if we fail this game psychology will be down with Hungary as well.
The issue is these two games, especially Turkey, are two months away. By the time we stop typing, the match will begin.
October, December sure yeah.. plenty of time. The two months away is the issue. Why you are not concerned ? One goal from Turkey in a set up play, then they park the bus, then we are SCREWED. It doesn’t take too much to get screwed. This game is very important …
i’m not worried about turkey as much as others, becasue although they are playing great, they play the same way all the time,
4-3-3, they love to speed down the wings, cross a lot, and with van der wiel and pieters that should not happen, and if we have douglas and vlaar who are tall defenders, the chances of the turks heading a ball in is very low. so as long as everyone does there job, nigel de jong, shuts down any shots from distance, we shouldn’t get scored on by a freak goal. and their full backs love to attack too, so we can launch all attacks from that side,
thats why i mentioned playing 4-4-2 because if someone had huntelaar and van persie up there, and robben comes charging down, past the full back, we all ready have the numbers to destroy the team, or if it’s just van persie and sneijder, then sneijder can spray the field to speed guys.
>i’m not worried about turkey as much as other
were you worried about Denmark as much as others? I bet now …
Wiel on a bad day cannot shut down his own sister 🙂
>so as long as everyone does there job,
yeah, that’s a big assumption there man. If everyone did his job we wouldn’t be out of the euro with 0 points… I like your optimism but there is reality too.
you underestimate Turkey … big mistake to begin with.
Off topic:
If true, makes things easier to hate Germany again 🙂
News from Germany/Spain camps:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/grant_wahl/06/25/euro-2012-diary-semifinals-germany/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_sports
We are the team to beat. Reus’s proclamation might strike some as arrogant, and it’s true that 1) another team here, Spain, happens to be the reigning world and European champion, 2) Germany hasn’t won a major title since 1996, and 3) Marco Reus may not strike you as a guy who should be talking smack, considering he has started just one game in the tournament.
Contrast the attitude of the Germans with that of Spain, the last camp at Euro 2012 where you will hear anyone say, “We are the team to beat.” This might sound surprising, since Spain is aiming for an unprecedented third straight major title, but the message is clear on all the banners plastered around the team’s camp: LA HISTORIA NO TE HACE CAMPEÓN. LA HUMILDAD SÍ. (History doesn’t make you a champion. Humility does.)
you know revisiting some of our 2012 world cup games (including against brazil), one should not underestimate the value of kuyt.. he and GIO gave us plenty of lifelines and are a big reason we progressed to the final….
Moving Kuyt to the bench has now cost TWO managers their jobs.
I warned this at the time. You all laughed. Oh my. Who’s laughing now? Not me, that’s for sure.
At this stage I thought I would be excited to be commenting about Holland’s next game in the semis but instead I am commenting about Holland’s future in Brazil 🙁
If Bert continues it seems like these names will leave the squad…Mathijsen, Bouma, Heitinga, Boulahrouz, Kuyt, Huntelaar y Van der Vaart…and Van Bommel has already retired so if that is the case I expect many new faces.
I watched some videos of Classie he seem like the real deal.
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/2942/EK-voetbal/article/detail/3276623/2012/06/25/Van-Marwijk-wil-niet-verder-met-Heitinga-Huntelaar-en-VDV.dhtml
i would keep vdv,huntelaar and kuyt,but the rest can go wherever they want… even these three would be benchwarmers. huntelaar hasn’t proven anything against portugal,he played a half game against germany and hardly touched the ball. aginst denmark he screwed a golden opportunity. technically he’s very limited,not surprising that “technical” teams (real m,milan) didn’t kkep him,and he’s excellent in a more physical (but lesser) league. even with his euro form,i would definitely opt for van persie instead of huntelaar.
with douglas we won’t need matthijsen. heitinga is really average,i’m sure that in the eeredivisie we can easily find better players than him.
THEY STILL HAVE A FUTURE WITH ORANJE:
Stekelenburg
Krul
Vorm
Wiel
Heitinga
Willems
Vlaar
Sneijder
Vaart
Strootman
Schaars
Nigel
Afellay
Persie
Robben
Huntelaar
L. de Jong
Narsingh
*I think the above players have a future but they will have to fight very hard to keep their places against:
Bruma, Maduro, Pieters, Emanuelson, Clasie, Fer, Wijnaldum, Elia, Drenthe, Wolfswinkel, Ola John, Anita, Maher, Viergever, Gouweleeuw, De Vrij, Buttner, Leerdam, Ronnie Stam, Ricardo van Rhijn, Van Aahnholt, Castaignos, Zeefuik, Barazite, Boerrigter, Depay, Beerens, etc….SO YES WE HAVE A BRIGHT FUTURE.
THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICES:
Mathijsen
Boulahrouz
Bouma
Bommel
Kuyt
This is a complete disaster.
The state of Oranje is in great peril and we need a leader to step in. The one, the only JC needs to get his hands dirty.
THEY STILL HAVE A FUTURE WITH ORANJE:
Stekelenburg
Krul
Vorm
Wiel
Heitinga
Willems
Vlaar
Sneijder
Vaart
Strootman
Schaars
Nigel
Afellay
Persie
Robben
Huntelaar
L. de Jong
Narsingh
*I think the above players have a future but they will have to fight very hard to keep their places against:
Bruma, Maduro, Pieters, Emanuelson, Clasie, Fer, Wijnaldum, Elia, Drenthe, Wolfswinkel, Ola John, Anita, Maher, Viergever, Gouweleeuw, De Vrij, Buttner, Leerdam, Ronnie Stam, Ricardo van Rhijn, Van Aahnholt, Castaignos, Zeefuik, Barazite, Boerrigter, Depay, Beerens, etc….SO YES WE HAVE A BRIGHT FUTURE.
THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICES:
Mathijsen
Boulahrouz
Bouma
Bommel
Kuyt
This is a disaster!
Oranje need a leader and JC needs to get his hands dirty.
I find it rediculous that many write-off Boula out, while he did NOT play a single minute in this EC. I actually find him way better than VDW defensively. Can someone tell me what killer defensive mistakes he has ever done. It is true that he is useless offensively, but if the midefiled and attack are doing their job, we don’t need his attacking abilities. Not that VDW’s attacking abilities are like Roberto Carlos! I believe he would have shut-down Ronaldo against Portugal if he would have played instead of VDW. Unlike others (e.g. Persie) who shine for their clubs and suck with the national team, Boula is the other way around. He did a great job in the last WC when he started for the suspended VDW. Next WC 2014, Boula would be 32 years old, which isn’t too bad. He is still fast and built like a rock.
————–STEKELENBURG——————
—BRUMA—DOUGLAS—MADURO—PIETERS——-
——SNEIJDER—-L.FER—-EMANUELSON——-
—–AFELLAY—-HUNTELAAR—-ROBBEN———
It is crazy to rule out Van Persie … he is still one of the best forwards on the planet. I beleive what Wenger said about him … think about the team around him. It is true that he wasted some big chances but that doesn’t mean he should not play.
Thanks vMarwijk for ruining the international career of the one striker of international quality since vNistelrooij
reckon ill stay away from this team for a while..
thanks vMarwijk; for ruining or international reputation, thanks for 4 years of poor football, thanks KNVB for giving us 4 more years of this shit!!
NEWS – BVM announces his team to play the upcoming international friendly:
Stekelenberg
VDW, Mathijsen, Heintinga, Willems
Van Bommel, De Jong
Robben, Sneijder, Afellay
Van Persie
hahahaha. who leaked the line-up info?
In not a big fan of Kuyt but one thing he is a fighter a real team player. with his move to fenerbace he’ll get full game time compared to liverpool where he was used as a sub. I think it’s not all done for Kuyt yet
I don’t think it’s all over for Kuyt… I’ve never been his biggest fan but he is what we need a real team player, a fighter. With his move to Fenerbace he should be a starter and will get a lot of game time unlike at Liverpool last season where he was mostly used as a sub. This can only be good for the Dutch.
bert van marwijk told i think eljero elia that he didn’t want him to go to turkey, because he would be outside the view of his scouts, and in doing so would mean no call ups for holland.
Kuyt always earns his Heineken.
http://espnfc.com/en/blogs/tacticsboard/102/the-death-of-4-4-2
Interesting article
http://espnfc.com/en/blogs/tacticsboard/102/the-death-of-4-4-2
I’m satisfied. Bert is a great coach. He was unlucky during the tournament. Let’s show some support!
Never was a fan of BvM, not even in 2010. The 2010 WC success came in spite of BvM and not solely because of him. He and the KNVB are leading Oranje into the dark ages with anti-Dutch football that will eventually finish off a golden era, even if it was mostly trophy-less.
Although there must have be enough spoiled brats in the EC Oranje team to fill up a locker room, it’s the coach’s job to manage them. If players need to get axed from the team for BvM to be able to continue, it’ll only be testimony of his incompetence, not the player’s.
I’m sorry for my gloomy prediction but with BvM they will fail to qualify for 2014. With him as a coach everybody will fancy their chances, even Andorra.
For what it’ll be worth in the years to come:
Hup Holland Hup
Of course the KNVB will not send BvM away after they just signed a contract for at least another 4 more years. The KNVB, who in my opinion already look like fools for doing this just before an important tournament, would prove themselves totally clueless if they let BvM go at this point. It’ll all be politics as usual to save face and not about what would be best for the team.
The talents on the field deserve better.
Here in the states they’ve reported that BVM has resigned. Have to say I’m relieved. The WC in 2010 was great, but I was embarrassed by the way we played in the final. Portugal are doing a lot better vs Spain today.
Hopefully a new director and some new blood get us back to playing amazing football!
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