Holland – Germany; my analysis

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by Jan

Daryl Janmaat had the best opportunity for the Dutch

I am pretty sure I start most reviews on friendlies with “I don’t like friendly games”…

And I still don’t.

What does it offer me? It offers excitement in the run up and then massive disappointment. Because if we lose against Germany, we lost against Germany. And if we win, it’s basically irrelevant as it’s merely a friendly…

And I hardly ever get entertained. There is no excitement in it. The only people who actually “enjoy” these games are the national team manager and his staff. And most likely the media.

Not me.

But looking at the game through the glasses of Louis van Gaal, I think there are some interesting conclusions:

1. Germany is further than we are. There “flow” in the game was better. They were more confident, played a higher pace and were able to find each other in time and space. And they created good opportunities using the wings and pushing forward.

2. Using players that hardly ever play together in these roles does not work well. Our team lacked any flow as a result. Huntelaar and Afellay play together at Schalke: LVG benches the Hunter. Why?? Schaken and Janmaat play well together at Feyenoord: LVG lets Van Rhijn start. Why?? The hub in Feyenoord is Jordy Clasie. He plays or has played with Vlaar, BMI, De Vrij, Janmaat, Schaken but LVG decides to use Nigel de Jong centrally in midfield…

3. Our youngsters surely have the goods. From Vermeer and Krul to De Vrij, Janmaat and Van Ginkel. Bring it on. It might now be said that Bert van Marwijk was a bit too slow using youngsters, which now results in Holland being behind Low’s Germany. And we know Maher, Fer, Narsingh and Strootman are waiting in the wings to come back. Our present time might not be world class, but our future most certainly is.

4. Louis van Gaal makes weird choices. Why does he risk getting on a bad footing with Huntelaar? Why does he play Nigel de Jong who offers so much in defence, but so little in build up?

My fear is that Van Gaal is merely another “rigid” coach, just like Van Marwijk. The latter held on to his 15 man squad and 4-2-3-1. Van Gaal seems to be married to 4-3-3 and likes to impress whoever (media? his wife? The opponents? The players? Danny Blind?) by making weird choices.

Playing against this Germany, he could have used the Ajax system, with a false striker. Don’t use Huntelaar when he’s out of form (is he really??? The Hunter is NEVER out of form… He always scores) ok, but maybe use a stronger midfield… And let Van der Vaart play as central midfielder behind Schaken and Robben… I probably would have picked Afellay over Schaken. Used Clasie in midfield. With De Jong and Van Ginkel. Second half, bring Emanuelson for Van der Vaart. Siem de Jong would have been the right player for that midfield too. He is in form. But being “in form” clearly is less important than being out form…

Anyway…too late now.

I’m just a bit concerned that Klaas Jan might lose it one day. Before the Belgium game, he is called the no. 1. After the Belgium game, Robin is the number one. Now, suddenly Kuyt gets the nod. And every player loves playing against team mates, so I’m sure Klaas Jan feels terribly humiliated. Smart move, Louis!

On a closing note: our width is improving massively. Players like Emanuelson, Van Ginkel, Elia, Janmaat, Fer, De Vrij etc have a lot to offer. I loved how the two Feyenoord defenders took the game to Germany (De Vrij and Janmaat).

So, all in all: I’m happy with our talent and future prospects. But I’m still on the fence with Louis…


Eljero Elia back in the squad


Marco van Ginkel shows lots of promise…

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0 comments

  1. One of the most boring games I have ever seen. With the right lineup we would have won. LVG showed he is weird and upredictable. He had a crazy look today.
    If I am Hunter I would seriously consider international retirement, this is humiliating. Playing Schaken for 90 mins fo God’s sake and not finding 10-20 minutes for Huntelaar?
    I was impressed by Janmaat, not so much by Elia.

    Thank you Jan for the live coverage.

  2. Janmaat is finding his footing.. Getting confident. That is good. I am pleased. Giving more depth to the squad. Damn, he could have scored..

    But I also agree with several points of Jan’s critique…

    1. Van der Vaart play as central midfielder

    2. Used Clasie in midfield.

    3. It might now be said that Bert van Marwijk was a bit too slow using youngsters

  4. The positives:

    *Vermeer.
    *BMI: This guy should lead our defense as CB.
    *Janmaat
    *De Vrij.

    The negatives:

    *Huntelaar might feel tired of always being the 2nd or 3rd choice!!!.
    *Van Rhijn showed he has to improve a lot especially he needs to work on his mentality.
    *Elia is well below his top form and it seemed as if he was scared of playing. At least now we have Narsingh, Lens, Wijnaldum, etc.

  5. This is the line up I’d have used (man I am still dreaming of being the coach lol). 😛

    ——————-Krul——————

    —V.Rhijn—-Vlaar—-BMI—-Willems—-

    ——–Afellay—Nigel—Vaart———-

    —–Kuyt——-Huntelaar——-Robben—-

    *Yes Kuyt because he is our 2nd captain and it was a friendly.
    *Clasie in for Nigel after 45′.
    *Bas Dost and Van Ginkel playing some minutes.

    1. Midfield didnt gel though… I believe Kuyt has no bizz in the starting line up. I would have played a 4-4-2 like Ajax does. With a false striker.

      In this case Robben – Hunter on top.

      Afellay Clasie Van der Vaart Emanuelson (Van Ginkel)

  6. You guys are ridiculous honestly, and I don’t see the hype about Huntelaar one bit. Aside from scoring a goal when it’s given to him on a golden platter, there’s not much I see he can do.
    Kuyt at least knew how to control and distribute the ball well last night, and was fast and aggressive thereby slowing their build-up throughout the second half.

    Besides, think many of you have missed the point of this game. Holland were playing Germany with more than half of the A-squad missing. Hence they were not supposed to dominate the game and score. Or else Hunter would have probably been on. Holland needed to kill their game and try to control as much as possible the midfield. And to that, by the end of the 90 mins, it was a job well done. Scoring would have just been a bonus. Had we had Robben2010, we would have actually scored.

    Again I was very impressed with the development of some players that only a few months ago I thought were just terrible. I think van gaal given the players he had at his disposal last night learnt a lot from the game. Holland was supposed to get its ass kicked by a world class attacking Germany, instead they showed they are equals.

    Please compare this game with the drubbing we received just a few months back , and I’m sure u guys can come to your senses.

    1. You’re right, RamyE. Not long ago we were in a panic about our back four.

      It’s good to have new worries, and to survive a “friendly” with Germany unscathed.

  7. dutch doesnt have to be panic,they played more composed than last 2 matches against germany…
    My cents on players of Van gaal.
    =======================================================
    Tim krul-Worldclass,just need some omre experience.Going to be much better that VDS.
    Vermeer —Surprised,guy is a deal..not a bad third choice.
    Janmaat-happy to his improve style,i think Vanderweil can forget his spot if he plays like this.
    Vanrhijn-Superplayer in making
    Devrij-Super CB in making
    Vlaar-good for bench
    Heitinga-ok as usual,his experince is more important for the team.
    BMI-Gift for dutch defence.soon end up with a big club.
    Joris-Needs to be dropped.with him feynoord defence is also bad.
    Williams-i doubt him,not yet fully developed,also lack of football intelligence is there.Must compete with VAN ANNHOLT to earn his spot.
    =====================================================
    HOLDING MIDS
    =====================================================
    De jong-Still a destroyer,needs him against spain,Arjetina,Germany,Portugal etc teams.
    Clasie–Clearly lacks physical size for a holding mid but definitly a Xavi for dutch..Van gaal must find a more suitable position for him.Germ of the new dutch talent.He must be utilized.
    Afelley-This guy has speed,skill but clearly lacks the genious touch of a class player.might be a better choice than Narsingh.Can be a good sub.Not belong to the class of player like Vaart,Wesly and persie.
    Roben-He has lost a bit of speed,age is attacking him.its the time for him to play as sub or super sub…
    Vandervaart—What a mercurious player he was and is..but like roben he is yeilding to age…good for sub in last 20 minutes or else should be dropped.
    Schaken-Lack of footballing intelligence nothing else.Must be dropped
    Huntlaar-i doubt his abilities against a strong team like portugal,germany,spain and arjentina..Should be number 3 after RVP and Ricky wolf.
    kuyt–Should be no 5 behind RVP,Ricky wolf,hunter and seim de jong.
    Van ginkel-Needs experience
    Urby-Palying well,should always be conisdered ahed of afaleey..he has something for dutch

  8. My hints for Van gaal to build a champion team..
    1-Drop Joris for Douglas.
    2-Drop Vlaar for Maduro
    3-Drop schaken for Anas Acchabar.(intelligent palyer)
    4-Drop Elia for Urby
    5-Drop kuyt for Ricky wolf
    6-Drop Williams for Van anholt
    7-Stick with Dejong-Strootman-Leoryfer-Deguzman as holding mids.
    8-Give priority to Seim dejong over luuk dejong,kuyt and hunter..
    9- Give chance to following players to prove their worth.
    1-Patrick van anholt in Lb
    2-Maduro in CB position
    3-De guzman as holding mid
    4-Urby emmanuelson as left winger.
    5-Ricky wolf as striker.

      1. @Jan urby is much better than elia in all aspects..urby may not be a pure out/out winger.his(elia) footballing intelligence and work rate is doubtful and very average.Urby is much better in both department.i am satisfied with elia’s pace and somewhat trickery.i followed him in bremen.he disappointed me a lot..
        About Anas i would say he is a striker but he can play in right wing too..Not a great speedy winger.but very clever player with effective dribbling skills.Though he is striker he can have a shot in right wing.

  9. Here are the results for friendlies in November starting 2009

    2009
    14.11 Italy 0-0 Netherlands
    18.11 Netherlands 0-0 Paraguay

    2010
    17.11 Netherlands 1-0 Turkey

    2011
    11.11 Netherlands 0-0 Switzerland
    15.11 Germany 3-0 Netherlands

    2012
    14.11 Netherlands 0-0 Germany

    An amazing fact is that Netherlands only scored ONCE in these 6 games.

    Maybe Jan is correct. The only people who actually “enjoy” these games are the national team manager and his staff. And most likely the media.

  10. LVG is a moron. Huntelaar is the best classic CF we have and he doesnt get a run-out against the Germans when Kuyt does?!? I loved Kuyt as our all around work horse. A man that plays defence and attack but KJH was the only real in form world class player on that team yesterday. Van Gaal will not win a WK with decisions like that…..

  11. Thank you Jan for your analysis. We still learn something about this game so it is still useful. If Schaken is not that good, I’d rather have a spot for Wijnaldum or even pushing Afellay up front, then use the midfield spot for Van Ginkel or Maher or Emmanuelson.
    I don’t mind to start Kuyt. Perhaps you make Hunter angry then when he plays, he will score a bunch of goals. In my opinion he is still #2 and Kuyt #3 behind RVP. So a few things that I learn from reading this blog:
    1. Many young players are ready to be in national squad if given chance. We still need to have a mixture of veterans and young players for now.
    2. We are no longer an elite team. We have a lot to do to get back to that level.
    3. Our defense is improving, which I recalled it was #1 priority we ask the new manager to fix.
    It looks like Kuyt will be fit for 2014. This guy plays like at least 5 years younger. I wonder if some veterans like Snejder, VDV or Mathijsen can play well 90 min or only 30 min by the time the WC starts. It is not a bad idea to groom someone like Maher, Emmanuelson or Siem De Jong to fill Sneijder, VDV position 18 months from now, the way LVG grooms Strootman and Clasie. It is difficult to read what LVG has for this position.

  12. I also agree that perhaps LVG can use Hunter more. It is tough to be told you are #1 and then you have not started for 5 games in a row (is that right? 4 qualification + this friendly). Perhaps Hunter can start in Estonia, Andorra or Hungary game?

  13. for Huntelaar case, I think it’s fine, considering this was only a friendly.

    one think that I couldn’t understand up until now… Y U NO sub off Schaken?? most of his services are either wayward or blocked by the defenders. can’t properly hold up the ball, too.

    when Elia was about to come, I thought it would be Schaken who’ll make way…
    when Emanuelson was about to enter, I thought it would be Schaken…
    when Van Ginkel… oh no, Afellay was injured, need a replacement of the same position.

    really, I screamed at my monitor every time the substitution was being made.

    when will the next match be held?

  14. Dont know if you noticed but the defence looked much better in the second half as LVG played 4 Feyenoord (or ex FEY) players: Janmaar de Vrij Vlaar Indi
    – Janmaat looked much more confident then in previous games
    – de Vrij was better than Heitinga IMO
    – Vlaar has a great season at Villa and he put in a great performance (also in the build up)
    – Indi was very good in defence but not so much going forward (I would rather see him centrally)

    In first half the germans made 2 chances through the right side of our defence (v Rhijn – Heitinga)

    My conclusion: the Feyenoord players are used to play togeather and know each-other very well.

    So we have:
    RB: v Rhijn / Janmaat
    RCD: d Vrij / Vlaar (backup – Heitinga)
    LCD: Martins Indi / Vlaar
    LB: Willems??

    The only problem as I see it is at the left-back. As I said, IMO Indi should be used in the middle (with Vlaar or de Vrij) and I would only used him at left-back when facing really strong opponent (like yesterday).

    But IMO we still have the same problems in midfield:
    – NDJ at DM spot is way to one-dimensional, he only tackles and then pass to the nearest defender rather than midfielder.. I believe that this is crucial role in this formation – in this spot we need a great player – leader to dictate the tempo.
    I really hope that Fer or Strootman with their physical strenght and good satmina can develope in some-kinde of Rijkaard player type with great defending and and good ball distribution. I dont see Clasie in this position.
    I dont have any worries for the wings or attack: when everybody is availible we have a great competition for places: But of course IMO Kuyt, Schaken, Elia and even VdV in this kind of shape should be dropped.
    I believe LvG yesterday was looking for some answers about some players and for sure he got them, and of course thats friendlies are about.
    Of course he didnt want to risk to much and loose against the germans and I believe he was right, cause in case of defeat it could break the positive vibes in the team.
    If you noticed maybe – in the frist half the formation was 4-1-4-1

    1. Some nice observations there hribec.
      I agree completely about Martins Indi being used only against the strongest opponents. For everyone else there should be Willems(or Blind?),with Martins indi taking the left CB spot.
      About the holding midfield spot,I think Clasie can be used as a deep-lying playmaker like Pirlo,but he will then need a stronger partner in midfield beside him like Strootman. Then one of Clasie and Strootman or both can play box to box if needed to attack the opponents or put pressure.
      Besides,they are both very good long range passers.
      So that would be a play style with two defensive midfielders if needed to defend and create from deep(counters),but they would turn to center midfielders to attack more if that is needed.
      That would give much freedom for a playmaker like Sneijder to do what he does best.

      2. I totaly agree with you, but in this case we have again 4-2-3-1 formation and not classic 4-3-3. I must admit that I feel 4-2-3-1 is still better for oranje, cause we simply dont have player types to play succesfull 4-3-3. In 4-2-3-1 we can also use NDJ alongside Clasie/Strootman/Fer and we are fare more unpredictable and the midfield and attack conection is far better. For exapmle if we play 4-3-3 with Clasie as DM who is not physical enough, he will only pass back to defenders when under pressure and the same goes with NDJ as he simply dont have the ability to get past opponent or make a good through ball. And because of that our tempo/transition is too slow, then we always have to play on already well positioned opponent midfield and defence – so we simply dont offer any surprise and everything looks to static.
        With 4-2-3-1 we offer a good combination in midfield (like Clasie-Strootman) and Sneijder further up to connect with attack and wingers (also with the full backs pushing forward more, as they now that two holding mids can also cover the gaps they left – only one player simply cannot do that – only Barca can succsefully play like that, cause their posession ratio is so high that the opponent simply dont see enough of the ball to create something out of it). IMO with 4-2-3-1 we could play much faster and more direct/vertical and with our fast wingers streching the opposition defence this is the way to confuse them all togeather. They simply wouldnt know from where it could hit them 😉

  16. *Strootman, Fer and Clasie are the best holding midfielders we have in order to play the Dutch style.

    *What I like about Narsingh and Lens is their attitude, their fighting spirit, also they score and cross well. Also Wijnaldum will make the team at some point as well I like him very much.

  17. I think Afellay should be dropped. This guy is more interested about dribbling than about passing.

    With a little Polish, I think Narsighn should be RM. I was particularly impressed by Vermeer.

    Here’s my 11 for now

    —— Krul ——
    vRhijn-Heitinga- BMI – Willems
    Strootman – Sneijder – Emmaneulson
    Narsighn – RvP – Robben

    1. There’s something to that tendency in Afellay, but whenever I think he’s a little piggy he slots a sweet pass and I forgive him.

      It was a drag to see Narsingh in the stands.

  18. Hasn’t Lens played well for the Dutch in qualifiers? For all the crap Kyut gets, it brings qualities still that a lot of the Dutch players don’t have–he gets back on defense, runs his ass off, is PHYSICAL. LVG needs to keep playing the youngsters and then figure out his best squad so that they can develop some chemistry–which is vital in this sport. I do think that Robben as lost a bit, and it worries me that Sneijder has a tendency to be lazy and not play much defense. I think that before too very long the back four will be in better shape that the Dutch midfield–which seems very unsettled.

  19. Hi guys, I really don´t understand what was LVG trying to see yesterday.
    If he wanted to play with a false 9, he should use Siem De Jong. If he wanted to play with a classic striker, he should use Hunter, Dost or RVW, but Kuyt?
    I don´t have any against Kuyt, but use him as central striker at this age? It´s no suppose we must think on the team for WC 2014? Why not give time to consolidate playes like Hunter or try new ones like Dost, De Jong or RVW?

    The same apply with Shaken, but at least this guy played well on the first half.

    I reckon I reaaly liked when I saw the deffense on the second half: Jannmat, De Vrij, Vlaar, BMI. Yesterday I asket to myself “What it is Jan thinking right now?”

    Some personal reflexions:
    1. Janmat is playing better. With VdW/VR/Janmat we have interesting options to RB.
    3. It was a huge LVG mistake to play Kuyt as central striker instead Hunter/Dost/RVW/S.De Jong
    2. I prefer Clasie or Anita over NDJ. I miss Clasie a lot.
    3. It will be interesting if LVG try to play BMI as left CB, beside VR or Heitinga, try with other LB, as Pieters, Willems, Van Anholt and maybe Buttner. I saw Van Anhold against Ajax and he was fantastic.
    4. It´s seems like LVG wants to play a rigid 4-3-3. He has to try new tactics sometimes. I think he will.
    5. No more Kuyt as central striker please.

      1. Eduardo’s suggestions would have made for a more interesting game — but facing a “better” squad, LVG needed to groom his youngsters without traumatizing them. So he parked the bus, and worked on position and transition.

        Shutting down Germany is sweet, however you do it, esp. if you’re grooming a new back four — and debuting a new goalie. A clean sheet is sweet for all of them.

        Kuyt played as captain, not poacher, leading the team in a new defensive formation. He played hard, as always, and took orders. It was just sad to see him bobble a couple of times.

        Still, he got the job done, increasing pressure upfield, and roaming to make triangles for attack.

        Also, I think NDJ played his role very well, roaming and picking up threats. His hard tackles seem key.

  20. Game wasn’t horrible if you look at from the point of view of the development of the defense. Also, you didn’t see those huge gaps between the lines that have been so troublesome in the recent past.

    Vn Rhijn is developing into a really good player. I wonder if he eventually won’t move inside, especially if Janmat develops, or VDW regains form. I’d prefer to have BMI play as a central defender exclusively (but LB seems where he fits for both Feyenoord and NT—the price of versatility.)

    For the rest, I like a 4-4-2 with this group. RVP and Robben as forwards, Sneijder just behind, with an aggressive fast, young, mobile MF in support out of a group of Strootman, Fer, Clasie, Affellay, or depending on development, Van Ginkel, Siem De Jong, Maher, or maybe someone we haven’t heard much from.

    The fullbacks (Willems, RVR, Janmat) would give width; Robben can still drift wide, as would Affellay, leaving the other mids to come through the middle when opportunity presents itself, and Van Persie would have people to run at goal with, and you could take advantage of his movement and passing.

    R: GK. Lots to pick from, and Vermeer has started to make the decision that much harder.

    1. I think Stek and Krul will compete for no1.
      Vermeer is a reflexive monster, but he occasionally makes stupid mistakes. (Remember Utrecht 6-4 Ajax)
      Cillisen, Mulder, Zoet, Velthuizen…etc are 1 level behind.
      So imo the immediate choices are Stek, Krul and Vorm. The good thing is we have abandance of decent choices in case of injury.

      Speaking about our new bloods at back. They all look good but I am afraid we have just seen them in friendlies or against weaker opponents. So there are still some uncertainties. (Though BMI looks really promising – we need such beast-like players at back)

  21. IMO, last game was last chance given to Kuyt and Schaken and they failed, LVG may want to narrow his selection for next year qualifications and WC2014, by dropping these two, he can now more focus on younger forwards.

    I want to see in the remaining games to WC2014, less role for van der vaart, sneijder, nigel, and Robben, only use them as super subs in the last 30mnts of the games. I think young midfielders, strootman-fer-van ginkel-clasie-maher can do the job as well or even better.

  22. We should play 3 midfielders over 1.8m, with equally good in defence-attacks and able to score goals
    Strootman (1.86m) – fer (1.88m) – van ginkel

    with reduced heights..:-)
    Emmanuelson-Vaart-Nigel

    ..:-)
    Clasie-sneijder-anita

  23. Speaking of left fullback, a report said that Eric Pieters may recover from a serious injury this winter break. I think his good performance in the national team is pretty good. LVG should should not forget him.

  24. Just wanted to add a comment on Ibrahmovic’s 30 yard bicycle kick goal – while it certainly isn’t the best goal ever scored it was still a classic. And what it most represents for me is that kind of ballsy and swashbuckling attempt at scoring which only the most confident players will attempt – these kinds of plays, have been over the years, such a defining characteristic of Netherlands players. But lately it has been missing – and I hope we can get it back soon.

    It was nice to see it go in – but it should have been one of our young players nailing this one…hope the kids continue to develop the way they have to this point. As Jan described it – we need to find our swagger again on the NT (and of course with Ajax as well!).

    OJF

  25. If Eric Pieters recover from his injury and get his form back, he will be competing with his fellow PSV jetro willems in both club and national team, this is also happenning with other orange/PSV players, narsingh vs lens. This is quite unusual.

  26. Based on the performance of Eric Pieters & Jetro Willems in the NT, in my opinion, if Pieters gets his form back, he should be the starting left full back of the NT.

  27. Rewatched the first half, just to check up on the various analyses here. You guys are smart.

    1) LVG’s first priority was, simply, not to lose. This was especially important in this “friendly” because of Dutch mythology: Losing to Germany would be about the worst thing you could do to kids you’re trying to bring confidently into the NT.

    2) As hribec observed, LVG’s method of parking the bus is 4-1-4-1, or 4-5-1, a defensive variation of 4-3-3 that clogs the midfield and makes the most of a guy like Nigel De Jong. In the first half when Germany controlled possession, the formation stayed crisp — and we had a few quality transitions that led to strong tries on goal that just came up short (Schaken’s pass past Robben to Kuyt; Robben’s drive on goal).

    3) Practicing a 4-5-1 is a pretty good use of a friendly against Germany, especially since it worked. 😉 LVG knows that BVM had one thing right: WC Finals are all about defense, so you have to park the bus sometimes.

    4) Back four looking better all the time. Johnny H. showed great positioning to block a couple of shots. Vlaar showed muscle when he had to. (Who was that he hip-bumped to the ground? He seems massive.) Bruno and Ricardo are big, growing talents; DeVrij looked solid; and Janmaat is now playing like Janmaat. Which is good, because that’s what the 4-3-3 has in common with the 4-5-1… the 4.

    I’m counting blessings. LVG was right. We didn’t have to win this friendly. We had to not lose it. All our kids are still unbroken by Germany. 😉

    Further, LVG banked some goodwill with club trainers… esp. Advocaat, who clearly wants a shot at Champion’s League. Lots of talent rested. And Robben got to prove that Dutchmen aren’t soft.

    Finally, Dirk Kuyt earned his Heineken again, dammit, leading the new defensive-minded formation. This 4-5-1 isn’t a configuration for a poacher. Kuyt was a fine choice, and so was Schaken, though each bobbled chances. They’re not too proud to play defense, and that’s what counted.

    The result mattered. Our fresh kids have not bowed before Germany. LVG accomplished his key objective, not surrendering class to a key rival while growing young talent under pressure.

    2. goldstone,
      Looking through rosy glasses this analysis looks good. I wonder if you’d have kept it the same if Schurrle scored on that last minute (almost open goal) miss.

      1. Well, of course not, Balkan. Then we would have lost, and LVG would have been the goat.

        By the same token, if Schaken had made that easy pass to Robben, we might all just agree that LVG is a god. 😉

        As it is, it’s an acceptable result, with some key positives — and few negatives, other than the numbing fact that it was a boring, park-the-bus “friendly.”

      1. Thanks, Robin.

        But it turns out that, once again, Robben proved soft.

        At least Franz ‘Klootzak’ Beckenbauer has no occasion to repeat that ‘ALL Dutch are soft’ kak. 🙂

  28. i dont think played kuyt played bad against germany,he did what he is capable of,he is not an acrobatic finisher like RVN or persie.so i didnt expect such kind of goals from him.he was a massive help in defense with consistent running.he needs tapins,bounce and headers.he needs a direct way to goal.otherwise he will not be able to score.if Ricky wolf and seim dejong gets a chance for NT and if they show their worth in NT.then kuyt will be dropped.

  30. From Associated Press:
    Arjen Robben will miss Bayern Munich’s next two matches after returning from the Netherlands’ match against Germany with an injury. Bayern says the winger has a slightly torn muscle. Robben’s latest injury trouble comes after he played for the Netherlands in Wednesday’s friendly against Germany, a lacklustre 0-0 draw.

    I wonder if Bayern fans are going to go after LVG.

  31. I agree with the general consensus re. the defense, so no need to rehash other than to say that I’m excited at the general progression I’m seeing in that area. I particularly liked De Vrij’s fluid movement and distribution, and nice complement to Vlaar and BMI’s power.

    I really only disagree with one thread in the discussion above — I really like what I’m seeing from Ibi Afellay in midfield. I like his movement off the ball, increasing tenacity in back tackling, and steadily improving vision, e.g., his ball up the wing to release Narsingh for the assist on the last goal versus Hungary and his dribble and dish to Robben during the first half yesterday.

    Ibi’s one of the few guys on this team who breaks guys down 1:1, but where in the past he’d do so with his head down / blinders on, he is increasingly showing the ability to maintain field awareness while doing so. I think that just being around and training with Barca did him a lot of good, and now that he can play full time with Schalke he can get all that learning into his “bones” in a way that only playing all the time can do.

    I think he brings a combination of mobility, creativity, confidence on the ball, and positional awareness that could be crucial as we head toward WK2014. Provided he stays healthy.

    1. Agree that Afellay seems more heads-up.

      Has he played much on the wings this year? We’re growing such depth in the midfield now, I’m more worried about having great pace on the wings. (Schaken seems to have a great work rate, but….)

      1. Good point re. midfield depth versus pace on the wings. I’m heartened by what I’ve seen from Lens and Narsingh, though I agree that we need more reliable depth at winger similar to what Louis vG is building at the back and the midfield. Schaken ain’t it — too one-dimensional.

        I haven’t been tracking Afellay’s play at Schalke, so not sure re. where he’s been playing. It’s my sense that both Barca and Louis vG are viewing him as midfielder versus winger, though your point’s well taken that he might be most valuable to Oranje as a winger, particularly if the boys can get to the point of playing a more fluid 433 like Spain or Germany versus the more rigid system that we’ve seen so far from vG 2.0.

        In that kind of a system, a midfield of some combo of Fer, Strootman, Sneijder, Emanuelson, VdV, Clasie, Maher, van Ginkel plus an attack of some combo of RvP, KJH, Narsingh, Lens, and Afellay could be something to behold. Particularly if they get enough time together to develop telepathic relationships (the major challenge of Oranje versus, say, Spain). For the toughest opponents, you could still throw de Jong in the mix (who seems like he’s playing with great composure and focus — making the most of his admittedly more limited toolkit) and have five fluidly-operating, attack-minded guys remaining. Mix in some surges from the flanks (particularly Janmaat has impressed me on this front), and you have the potential for an offensive juggernaut. There are a lot of “ifs” in there, of course…

  32. My take-away from this friendly…Kuyt is past his prime, Schaken not NT material, Afellay overall not good i.e. poor shooting, no eye for opening, always hurried to pass ball away instead of holding and looking for an incisive pass. When he plays at winger, final cross is no good.

    Actually I will love to see more of Clasie. From the past games he played, felt that he is composed and comfortable on the ball, good short/long range passes. Ideal to launch attacks from DM position.

    Btw, anyone with full match link on the recent Belgium vs Netherlands friendly? Has been scouring in YT but can only find highlights.

  33. I also liked Afellay. He is an incredible player but I hope he doesn’t go back to Barca.

    He is 26 and he hasn’t been as successful as expected. He is at an age where the “learning process” should be over, at 26 I’d expect him to be a real star like RVP, Robben, Sneijder…and he can be really successful but if he goes back to Barca I am affraid he will end up being a major benchwarmer.

  34. Oranje in Brazil will depend on form of our stars in the 2013/14 season. IF, Wes has a good recovery and an immense season. If RVP maintains his goalscoring form. AND Arjen improves considerably from this year and stays injury free, we can go far in Brazil, perhaps to another final. Louis can find other players (missing pieces of puzzle) to compliment these three that in my view are the KEY to a successful WC.

  35. Great reading lads, my take on game is as follows: LVG to Kuyt – Dirk you have been a great embassador for your clubs and country over the past 6 + years, as a reward for this you will captain your country against the might of Germany our arch rivals. You know as well as i that your days playing in the NT are numbered but i need you to show these young up and coming kids what Heart is, i need you to bust your arse one more time up front in a position that we all know does not suit you (klass Jan cant do this for me). Dirk you have earned this honor now lead the way!

    Maybe i am in a fantasy land but surley we all know Dirk wont be there come 2014 WC, however young players learn from playing with old players and Dirk has alot to teach the young lions coming through, i will leave it at that.

    As for the match Germany ran riot in the first half and should have scored atleast 2, Jonhy H must go we have lots of other options for the CB positions, we did not field our best midfield and it showed by the lack of fluid play and attacking opportunities created, vermeer impressed!
    Second half we still struggled but came into the match into the last 20 mins and actually looked okay in patches, Jan you are right when you say friendlies suck there is nothing to gain for Holland, a draw was the best result possible – lets be honest it was one of the most boring games of football ive seen in a long time as Germany also stopped playing in the second half.
    The positives are that there is a lot of potential NT players for Holland and some of them got a chance to play on the big stage at home! Lets see what happens next match when hopefully all players are fit and available.

    Just my 2c!

    2. I can see Kuyt still at WK2014. He can be a sub. Imagine the final going to overtime again, I would throw Dirk in for that last half an hour.

      WK 2014 is just 1.5 years away. Dirk will have plenty of batteries left 🙂

  36. I am clearly unable to teach van gaal.but i hope and pray that he selects right players who are capable of doing assigned duties which given to them.2010 WC BVM had some inferior players in his team when compared to Spain. if we give marks to Spain, Germany and Netherlands out of 23.the score would be
    Spain=22/23
    Dutch=19/23
    Germany=20/23
    I mean number of incompetent players in the squad .Both Spain and Germany didn’t had a talented player like Roben or Persie.but over all they were better teams. I doubt that if we faced Germany in semi, we wouldn’t have gone to final in 2010.
    So guys pray that van gaal selects a guy based on following order.
    Work rate
    Footballing intelligence
    Trickery
    Speed
    Vision
    Commitment
    Unselfishness.
    Physical strength and stamina.

  37. When we consider above factors there are some players who do not have some of these qualities those are in my opinion.
    1. Joris Mathijenson-Speed and Work rate.
    2. Kuyt-Speed and trickery
    3. Afaleey-Vision and Footballing intelligence
    4. Ruben schaken-Footballing intelligence, Vision
    Dutch have no chance of winning WC2014 with these 4 players. These players must be dropped ,I mean there is very less chances will be created with these players ,even if we get a chance I doubt they will score or not.Joris case is hard and he has been a warrior for us.but simply WCs,ECs and Cls are not for these guys.no matter how hardworking and intelligent they are or how much trickery they have.
    Other section.
    1. Narsingh-Footballing intelligence
    2. Elia-Footballing intelligence
    3. Lenz-Footballing intelligence
    4. Vaart-Workrate,Speed
    5. Sneijder-Workrate,Speed.
    6. Roben-Workrate
    7. Vlaar-speed
    8. Jetro Williams-Footballing intelligence
    9. Klaas jan huntlaar-workrate
    It’s the time for wesly,Vaart and Roben play as subs.it seems these guys are affected by age and clearly lacks work rate.It will affect the team balance and defenders will have hell of a time .LVG must use them wisely or if they are not fit it would be better to drop at least 1 among them.
    Lenz and Narsingh might act as utility players, clearly doesn’t belong pure dutch class.
    Jetro and Elia has everything except footballing intelligence and vison.i doubt about their further development.
    Vlaar and hunter have their own weak points, hunter is static,Vlaar would be nut mugged against small, trickery attackers.

    1. Mostly agree but I would keep Dirk on the bench. Remember how Ooijer played against Brazil.

      Sneijder is not affected by age, he is affected by the parties and Yolande. He might decide that a WK is more important than p***y. Physically he is fine, it is an attitude problem.

  38. It may sound crazy but BMI is capable to play any role in this team including attacker and can do it better than some of our offensive weapons. This is a potentially great player. Holland was so lucky to have him fall in its lap.
    Afellay has been disappointing for a long time now, Elia seems tentative and affraid, Schaken is another Babel, VdV is as old as a grandpa, Kuyt too, NDJ looks like a lazy pub bouncer, Robben is broken. Sooner or later most of these players will be phased out. The future belongs to Janmmat, Van Ginkel, BMI, Clasie.

    1. I agree with most of your points Tiju , but i think you kinda underestimate Afellay .
      He was one of the best players in Eredivisie when he was in Eredivisie 2 years ago , and he even improved when he went to Barca .
      Unfortunately he was injured and stayed more than 6 months away , lost his spot in barca ” he would have been a startet or a player no.12 for barca if it wasn’t for his injury ” .
      So , i think he needs more time to gain his form back , he is young “26 yo ” , with great vision , skills and speed and he is so versatile . he can play on right wing , left wing , as a playmaker or even as a holding mid .
      Don’t forget that van Persie also plays better with Afellay in the feild .

      I can’t see LVG point with schaken and joris though .
      I bet if Ola John keeps playing with Benfica he will get a call-up against Italy . The guy has the best over-crosses i have ever seen ! He will do an amazing job with huntelaar .

      1. @Mohamed,buddy i have nothing against afaleey.He has trickery and speed.he can keep a ball under his feet against an opponent,unlike kuyt or brapheid etc.thats the strength with him.But i doubt his decision making,vision and footballing intelligence.i simply wish kuyt had his speed and trickery then we would have won against Spain,Portugal and Russia..2006/08/10.he is doing so many useless dribbles and ends up in nothing.Being a best in eredivise doesnt make u world class.its intelligence of a player that makes him world class.

  46. The talent in midfield is ridiculously promising. LvG just needs to find the right chemistry and selecting the ‘right’ combination of 3 players.

    Sneijder is a given. He, when in form, is the spine of Oranje midfield. Nobody is even close to his playmaking talent, not even Vaart.

    If you asked me three months ago, I would have said Clasie was a lock in midfield. BUT he’s been below par this season, and his performances in Oranje have been far from convincing. I think this is the area LVG needs to think really, really hard. Nigel De Jong is a good option to have, but he offers zero help in build-up and he slows down the flow in midfield so much by his back or side way passes. I want to see Strootman gets the nod in central midfield, in a more defensive/holding role. He’s been pretty steady with PSV this season, but of course he plays a bit further upfront (with Van Bommel sitting at the backdoor).

    The last position in midfield should be reserved to a quick runner, a ball-winning midfielder who can go up and down the field. I believe this is the key to a dynamic midfield (vs. the static we’ve been witnessing since BvM’s era). I thought Afellay did a decent job vs. Germany. Yes, he was sloppy at times, out-muscled by his defenders too easily, but he did have some great forward movements. And he was really the only one with initiative to move the ball in forward direction. The good news is that he plays in this role for Schalke so there’s a reason to be optimist that he will get better and more comfortable. I’d say Afellay is in the driving seat. As his back up, I’d like to see Leroy Fer… another overzealous midfielder with hunger. Technically, he is inferior compared to Ibi, but Fer can offer attacking threat in set-piece. I feel the likes of Maher or Van Ginkel might be a little further down the road, they need to focus on their respective clubs, though I don’t mind seeing them coming in and out the Oranje selection for the time being. The big loss this season is Vurnon Anita. He made a dumb mistake moving to Newcastle, and rode the bench.

    1. Eric have you seen Clasie today? He looked great. And I do not agree that he is below par this season,he is just not as good as the last season when he was one of the best players in the league.
      I would like to see players like Maher and Van Ginkel trained to replace Sneijder someday. Sneijder is 28 and constantly injured,his replacement is 29 years old. If those two are injured,who should play in their role?
      Strootman? He is not really an attacking mdfielder.
      Clasie? Never played in that position.
      Afellay? Not as creative and not much younger.
      Siem de Jong? Also not as creative.
      So as far as young players go that leaves Maher and Van Ginkel who could potentially be the succesors,so yes they can maybe be slowly integrated into the national team. Van Gaal does it pretty good so far,they both made their debut at 19 years of age.

      1. @Petrovic- it’s semantics, my friend. Your point is well taken, that Clasie is not as good as last season. Which is huge disappointment, because he should be getting better each passing season, not regressing. His bar should be higher this time around. Based on what I’ve seen this season, I call it sub-par, or below expectation. That said, I am not overly concerned. This happens to young players all around the world. Sometimes they need to step backwards to leap forward. Hope it’s the case with Clasie.

        Interesting point about Sneijder’s successor. I am going out on the limb here, but I think Clasie is destined to take over as Oranje playmaker someday. He has a great vision and ball distribution. For sure, he won’t be playing as advanced as Sneijder (or Vaart), but I can envision he holds the anchor in a deep-lying playmaker role (similar to Xavi or Pirlo). Van Ginkel and Maher would probably have a role playing behind the forward men, but I am struggling to picture them dictating the plays and organizing the ball traffic. They seem awfully passive (lack of initiative) to me in this regard. But they’re only 19, so a LOT can change between now and Sneijder’s retirement.

    1. I have not seen his games, earlier this year i tried to watch and he wouldn’t play, but i saw something like 13 shots and 4 goals…. after today i have no clue it will be updated, but thats a 3 shot for 1 goal ratio, thats big, but alas I have not seen him play as much as id like

  48. Emmanuelson should fight for the same position as Maher and Van Ginkel. If FDB can develop Siem De Jong well, I’d see Siem De Jong ahead of Maher, Van Ginkel and Emmanuelson. I understand they are not the same as Sneijder but Sneijder’s performance after 2010 worries me.

    1. Emmanuelson should fight with Roben for Left wing starter spot.he helps defense too.workrate is much higher than roben and he is more intelligent than elia and Afaleey..

  50. For playmaker /role it should be
    Wesly Vs Vaart Vs Maher Vs clasie Vs Van ginkel.if wes and vaart is not fit we should forget them and must take the new lads as clasie as first choice though he never played in that spot,but he is most intelligent player we have as a younger player,can hold a ball in feet for long time ,with excellent passess and i have no doubt he WILL EXCEL IN THAT SPOT.Amen

  51. Re: Clasie

    I don’t think he has regressed; this year is just a good example that you have to look at the team around the player. Last year he had El Amahdi doing alot of the hard work around him…and he had Guidetti as a target, and who would do something with his passes…Another good example is Strootman. He took much of the blame for PSV’s late collapse last year (especially on the defensive side), but this year he has Van Bommel next to him and he is much freer. Both these guys are players who integrate well into a team, the better the players around them, the more their particular attributes come to the fore.

    My bigger question about Clasie is where do you play him in the NT if it is 4-3-3. He is never going to be a Sneijder. But he is not a deep defensive midfielder either…So is he ultimately a better option than Fer, Affellay, perhaps Van Ginkel or Maher for the other spot? Time will tell.

  52. if any one wants to know the class and brilliance of vander vaart just watch this clip…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKiJLvOlXpQ.
    when u scout for talent look at brilliance of a player rather than useless trickery…
    Amazing rafel at less than 19 year old.
    these kind of players are called world class players..Afaleey,lenz,narsingh,schaken none of them belongs to this catagory

    1. wonderful goal, i like van der vaart in 2006 too much, but he is over, the best thing is we wave goodbye with him and kuit. also Just one goal is enough? i see one of my classmate score a goal in high school like this, i have to find him and tell him he is world class player, tanx.

  54. I think Leroy Fer with Strootman in our midfield would be a great midfield and if you add Sneijder it will be a massive midfield ready to kick some asses!!!. 🙂

  55. I liked all of your ideas , line-ups guys , but simlpy , we have no chance to win the world cup with a team like
    strootman, fer, clasie, van ginkel, maher and persie for instance .
    We won’t win the WC without a highly experienced players who played in the WC before . just remember how we played in 2006 . we had only 5 experienced players ” VD sar , GIO , Cocu , Bommel and RUUD ” , plus , Active , talented , tricky players like sniejder , vdv , robben and persie .

    but the team was not able to win a big game ” a draw against argentina and a bad game without ruud against Portugal ” .

    We will go to Brazil to WIN the tournament , our “old” players will be 30-31 years old which is an excellent age to win the WC . remember Italy in 2006 .

    I may make an exception in the defence because our experienced defenders are just average , so i may use a young active defensive line .

    LVG simply knows that .
    we can have and experienced starting 11 with young active talented subs. , who can make the difference when needed .

    LVG just have to motivate the big guns like VDV , Wes , Persie and Arjen . it will be their last chance to win a WC and they must do their best .

    _____________ Krul ____________

    Janmaat__De vrij __ indi __ Willems
    ____________ Strootman __________
    Vaart __________________ Sneijder

    Persie____ Huntelaar ____ Robben

    subs .

    __________ Stek/ Vorm ___________
    Van rijn __ Heitinga __ Pieters __ van aanholt ” plays great with vitesse ”

    _______ Clasie ______________
    Fer _____________ Van ginkel

    Afellay __ kuyt ____ John

    stand-by :
    lens , narsingh , de jong , emanuelson , maher , siem & luuk , vlaar , douglas , elia , vermeer ….

    1. @Mohmed 2006 we failed coz of lack of good playmaker.it was wesly who played as playmaker,he was inexperienced and he had too much shots on goal instead he should have passed those balls to others.Against protugal we played kuyt as main striker and we played very very well but failed to score a goal.if we had some luck cocu shot would nt hav hit the bar.but San mark got punished for not playing Great dangerous RVN.it was tactical mistake i think.San mark made some horrendous mistakes by kicking out Clarence for Wesly…huntlaar for kuyt and castelen for babel.those three selection mistakes were so crucial and those 3 were in top form at that time.with young player we had good energy and we didnt get humiliated by any team though we lost an unlucky game due to tactical error

  56. We have some probelm with some senior players they have been together for a long time they had 4 major cups and they couldnt win anything.
    here goes the problems of senior players
    joris-slow and poor buildup
    Vaart-Cannt play 90 min,lack of stamina and speed.
    Roben-Lack of work rate and stamina.he doesnt help defense
    kuyt-No speed,no trcikery not a threatening weapon and opponent doesnt fear him.
    Afeleey-=full of trickery but useless end product.
    Wesly=takes shot when ever he gets the ball inside the box.not physically fit for 90 minutes.
    vlaar=will get nutmugged by small and speedy dribbler like augero,Messi etc
    heitinga=typical heitinga mistake at some point of a match.
    Van gaal must drop some of them and its the time for some of them to play as sub like Roben,Wesly..

    2. Tiju, are you stuck in a loop? 😛
      You keep repeating that stuff, but it doesn’t magically become true.
      Also, are these opinions or facts? Please stop preaching. You have some good ideas, but a lousy way of expressing them. Take care dude.

  58. You guys are losing perspective again. You did not so bad for one half against a Germany missing 6 of the starting 11. This included the entire central midfield. In fact the 3 have never played together. Explain it away all you want. Anyway see you in two years when we kick you and Van Gaal out of another tournament.

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