Italy outsmarts weak Oranje

Well, it seems that after a good series of games and increasing positive vibes around the team, our lads manage to help us level our expectations and get us back with our feet firmly on the ground.

It was at times a shocker. A really sobering experience.

It was well known beforehand that 1) Italy would freshen up the team and 2) they’d come with a mission, as they dropped two points at home. A response was to be expected.

Lodeweges set up the team almost exactly like Italy (as I said before: both teams try to play a similar style of football with a similar type of tactical plan), but instead of putting fresh legs in, he decided to use the team that had a confidence boost vs Poland. He also figured that Hateboer and De Roon would find something extra vs the players they see every week.

Bergwijn, who struggled after an hour vs Poland, was rested and Wijnaldum played as a false right winger, in what was probably a 4-3-2-1. Promes and Gini close behind Memphis, with a block in midfield ( De Jong, Van de Beek, De Roon).

Italy executed the plan to perfection and coach Mancini’s only real issue was the lack of more goals.

Oranje received a football lesson from the Azzurri and will need to get its act together really fast, as the matches will come thick and fast.

The issues.

I think for starters, Lodeweges made the mistake of using 10 of the starting 11 against Poland. Two big matches in 3 days with players who are not 100% match fit… Why? Dumfries was fit. Wijnaldum can play for De Roon, and give Frenkie some protection and help as holding mid (Davy Propper was injured and not part of the squad). Bergwijn could have done another 45 minutes and Ihatarren could have easily had his debut. He’s young, fresh, eager and has that surprise factor.

Anyway, that was just one issue. Italy is also not 100% match fit but still I think the risk of injured players was relatively high and it was visible that some players (Memphis!) were struggling at times.

Secondly, the team played to expansive. The spaces between the players was too big. Putting pressure and chasing the opponent is harder this way and costs even more energy. And once you do have the ball, there are less options to find a team mate. We lost the ball constantly, after 2 or 3 touches.

Example 1: Marten de Roon pushed up while right winger Wijnaldum has no direct opponent and seems lost in space. Big hole behind De Roon, for Hateboer and Veltman to deal with…

Thirdly, the right flank was in disarray. It’s easy to criticize Hateboer. And I personally also think he is not good enough for the NT. I do believe Dumfries, or Karsdorp, or Tete or even Janmaat (when fit) are better options. Yes, he has great lungs and keeps on going, but his crosses are mediocre, his touch lets him down and his decision making isn’t great. Having said that, him being the weakest link, he wasn’t helped that well by his team mates. De Roon and Wijnaldum should have made sure he was never playing against two opponents. Wijnaldum in particular was highly disappointing. But Joel Veltman also didn’t play like De Ligt or De Vrij would. He’s too much on the back foot, tracking back and never really pushing forward.

So Hateboer became the weak link, but this was partly the fault of the team (incl Lodeweges!).

And again. Van de Beek and wijnaldum both cover one Italian, while Frenkie is pressing high up, with gaps behind him. 

Some players (Memphis!) want to overcompensate the fact we’re not playing well by making it all even more complicated. Half volleys on goal from 35 meters out, bicycle kicks and more. In these situations, one needs to play simple.

And then this… A gap between defense and midfield. Frenkie pushing up, Van de Beek and Wijnaldum lost. The Italians can find a free man all the time.

Italy could have had 4 goals, in all honesty. Their finishing wasn’t up to speed (they also are not fully fit) and Holland really had very little to show for itself in the final third. A shot by Wijnaldum in the first half. An attempt by Van de Beek in the second half. Some weaker attempts by Memphis and Promes. Luuk de Jong came to play for Ake (cramp) in the final minutes of the game and had one decent heading opportunity, but overall it was piss poor.

This happened all the time. Huge space on the right. Look at the pairings. Wijnaldum or De Roon should be covering.

Frenkie de Jong did what he could, Memphis tried a lot, Van Dijk kept his head up and kept on commanding the troops, but it was just not good enough. We looked leggy, we kept the pitch to wide, we didn’t help each other out… we never deserved anything from this game.

This is the goal. Four Dutch against three Italians. Ake is marking his man. Van Dijk should have control. But it will go horribly wrong.

So now what?

Well, in terms of standing in this group: we still have control. We need to win games, and the away game vs Italy is a game we probably have to win, but I think we can. There is nothing lost yet. And make no mistake, it is going to be worth our while to perform well in this Nations League as it could help us get a ticket for the World Cup.

In terms of playing style and players: I think we need to keep on going on this road, but we need to learn from this match and learn fast! We need to stay more compact, have less space between the midfielders and the different lines. We also need players to stand up, and read the game and take charge. Lastly, I think it is safe to say we do need Propper, De Ligt, Blind, De Vrij, Malen, Stengs, Danjuma, Karsdorp, and maybe even Berghuis.

In terms of coach: I think this will probably urge the KNVB to sign a big name heavy duty coach. Lodeweges is probably a great assistant. But doesn’t seem to have the fire in his belly and the confidence to take charge because it didn’t take me more than 10 minutes to see what the problem was.

I also believe another – more experienced – head coach wouldn’t have started the same eleven (well…ten). Louis van Gaal or Henk Ten Cate. One of those two seems needed to guide and lead this still young team. My preference is Ten Cate (it was the same three years ago, when Hans van Breukelen fukced up so gloriously).

My ratings (I got some flak for the generous ratings for the Poland game, but I took into account the fact it was the first match and we ended up winning, so….).

Cillesen – 7 – was there when he needed to be, his passing was ok, not great, and I don’t think he was at fault for the Italy goal

Ake – 6 – couldn’t bring a lot moving forward, looked leggy

Van Dijk – 5 – Not sure where he was when that cross came in.

Veltman – 4 – Very sloppy, gave balls away needlessly, wayward passing and letting Hateboer drown at times

Hateboer – 5 – Got himself in trouble, had one major howler, but fixed it again, worked hard but was left in the lurge

Frenkie – 6- worked hard, tried hard, but struggled

Marten de Roon – 4 – didn’t protect his Atalanta team mate Hateboer

Donny van de Beek – 3 – almost invisible, kept the field to long, tactical positioning was weak, had 1 good chance

Gini Wijnaldum – 3 – Wasted as right winger, hardly any threat, lost in space between players and leaving Hateboer to drown

Memphis – 3- Tried hard, seemed to be very motivated but lots of wrong decisions and not enough team play

Quincy Promes – 3 – Almost invisible, sloppy in possession, weak in his positioning

Steven Bergwijn – 4 – Could affect the game, had a through ball for Frenkie but overcooked it

Luuk de Jong – 6 – Did what Luuk de Jong does

Dwight Lodeweges – 5 – he probably had a good plan but the execution sucked and he wasn’t able to change it around. Was late with subs and should have started fresher legs

I can’t play the high lights of this game. So lets look at a game that got us all cheering!


Bookmark and Share


  1. Jan, very good analysis as usual. the one below strike a cord in me. Depay can be wasteful with his attempts. He should play direct, purposeful and be more effective. Need to cut down on unnecessary flicks, volleys etc.
    still, I am hopeful of the future. We have good players in Wijndal, Koopmeiners, Gravenberch, Malen, Ihattaren. All they need is an opportunity to break-out. 🙏😊

    “Some players (Memphis!) want to overcompensate the fact we’re not playing well by making it all even more complicated. Half volleys on goal from 35 meters out, bicycle kicks and more. In these situations, one needs to play simple”

  2. We need a Coach who doesn’t carry the baggage of staying loyal to the/certain group of players who were involved in the euros qual.
    I am seeing this in the selection of Veltman, Strootman, Babel, etc.

    1. There was no time to test others… This is the first time they got together. There is no coach who would play 4 new players. No one would do this. Not Pep, not Conte, not Tuchel, no one.

  3. As an Ajax fan I had to endure the presence of Veltman in the starting 11 for years. Now that he is finally gone Oranje shoves him in my face constantly whether it’s a RB or CB. When will they realize he is not good enough? He is a mistake waiting to happen!!

    As far as the game goes, quality wise we are not good enough. Besides our CBs where we are world class, we don’t have the same quality in midfield or forwards. You can sort of argue midfield with Wijnaldum, De Jong and Donny.

    GK is just okay but Cillessen ain’t playing much lately that is why Valencia is trying to get rid of him. I don’t see Krul being any better but Jesper is not a main concern at the moment since he is a decent enough GK.

    Wingbacks, constant problem for us as I don’t really see anyone worthy of having his spot locked in. Like Jan said Hateboer was exposed merely because he was left fighting against two opponents constantly but he is not the typical RB we need in this team. Not sure Dumfries is either though. We had our complaints with him in the past as well. Tete is just not playing enough, therefore I can’t take him into consideration yet while Karsdorp needs to settle in a club nicely without any injuries. We also have Veltman on the right but as I mentioned above you guys know how I feel about him.

    On the left, the use of Ake raised a few eyebrows mainly because he is not very good going forward and he is not a LB at all which clearly showed. Wijndal should have played with no other option available! If and when Blind comes back and that is a long if with his health situation, I still don’t think he is a LB either at this time of his career. That position requires speed and Blind lacks that. He does make up with his ability to read the game and his passing/crossing but I wouldn’t have him on the left. Koeman had to make sure we’d lose Gosens to Germany before he left which was frustrating to see. There is some nice prospects on the left like Bakker, Sinkrgraven but not convinced with them yet. Then there is Willems (Williams for Tiju) just joking buddy! I personally never liked him since his Euro 2012. He has speed and can cross the ball but very inconsistent just like Van Anholt.

    In midfield we have some great players and some not so great ones. Frenkie belongs in the great ones! Even in yesterday’s game (which was a complete disaster mainly because of Lodweges getting everything wrong), Frankie did okay. He was the only one that tried to influence the midfield to get something going but he was completely alone since Donny was invisible and De Roon can’t really offer much offensively.

    Going forward I do hope that the new coach will give a chance to Donny, Gini and Frankie in midfield. Them three are quality players and can build something good playing together. As for subs De Roon is good defensively and can be used in games we need to defend a lead. Propper is decent as a sub while Strootman is a question mark at this point. Koopmeiners needs to to be a part of this team instead of Fer who I don’t really know why he was selected in the first place! Lastly we also have Ihattaren! This kid looks special and he had to come on in the game against Italy but Lodeweges thought otherwise…so overall I would say midfield is decent enough for us to be competing at the highest level.

    Let’s go to Forwards now, where we are in a dry spell in the Netherlands. After always producing world class forwards and wingers and lacking in defense 2008-2014 now we have the opposite, world class CBs but mediocre at best forwards. Memphis is possibly out best forward/winger with him against the Italians having a really tough time. Bonucci/Chiellini did a good job on him by staying close and not letting him turn and even when he managed to get some space, he either gave the ball away or his shots were just not what we are used to from him. His move to Barcelona is almost done from what they say and Koeman who knows him well will help him develop further and possibly turn him into a world class player assuming he stays away from injuries. Hopefully Messi gives him a few tips on how he does it. Moving on, Promes and Bergwijn are very similar players. Both have a hard time taking or going past a defender which is a problem since that is what most wingers do. Unfortunately for us we don’t have any better ones out there. Stengs is still not ready for this level, hopefully he puts in a good season with AZ and he puts himself into contention, Babel I just don’t want to see him back with Oranje. Some good prospects out there Danjuma Gronenveld, Dlrosun, Malen, Kluivert but all need to stay healthy and have a good year to hopefully burst into the scene. We do need some fresh blood in there and maybe this years we will see these guys produce a great season. We also have CF like De Jong and Weghorst with both doing well for their clubs. Both are very similar and coaches typically don’t want players who are a copy paste of one another playing the same position but let’s see how their season goes. Lastly we have Boadu, still young and very promising but needs to be a little more clinical! Just like Stengs, he needs to have a good year with AZ hopefully they make it in the UCL so they can get some experience at the highest level.

    Clearly as of right now our weakest link is our forwards/wingers with some too young, some too old and some not so skilled for the Dutch team. But fingers crossed all of them will have a great season and will make it very difficult for our new coach to select who he wants for the upcoming Euro.

    Lastly I’d like the new coach whoever that might be to consider playing 5-3-2 or 3-5-2. Our strength is defensively and Van Dijk, De Ligt and De Vrij all need to play. I would like to see this team face Italy next month assuming all are healthy. 3-5-2 with Cillesen as our GK, De Vrij, Van Dijk, De Ligt at the center of defense, Dumfries on the right with with Van Anholt or Wijndal on the left. The 3 in midfield will be Gini, Dony and Frankie and the two forwards Luuk and Memphis on a more free role or Weghorst and Memphis similar to what we saw from Van Persie and Robben in the 2014 World cup.

    1. Very good analysis. I agree with most you say. I do believe the answer up front is Malen and very soon Boadu. Malen has depth and speed and is ice cold in the box. Once he is 100% fit again, he will be our #9. Our mini MBappe.

      1. Thank you Jan. I do rate Malen very high, possibly higher than all our up and coming forwards at the moment. With Schmidt as his coach and assuming he stays healthy i have no doubt that he will be one of our main strikers/wingers at the Euro.

        1. PSV have looked good in the preseason and they are defintely the team to look out for in eredivisie this season. I dont know but their standout player thus far has been cody gakpo and plus with malen there is also no ariel threat but agree he is ecceptional in other departments. Boadu seems to br complete striker. Lammers as well.lets wait and see what hr comes up with.

          I would mind a 4-3-1-2 with Malen and Boadu upfront and depay in the middle and Ihattarren maybe one of the three midfielders.

          1. What pre-season matches have you watched exactly? PSV has looked absolutely terrible but who knows? They have very little expectation so will play without pressure. But their defense and MF are pretty weak.

          2. Hertha berlin 4-0. Ajax struggled with this same hertha team. Schmidt has already addressed GK area by bring in Yvon Mvogo on loan from RB Leipzig and LB Philip Max from Augsburg. Defense like I said Obispo is still not fully fit otherwise Viergever,Baumgartl and Boscagli are capable of doing the job. Guti, hendrix, Rosario, unless somebody leaves then you can expect reinforcement coming in midfield. Forwards are packed with talents.

      2. Hahaha mini mbappe I like that Jan!!

        Yes I really like malen . I hope he stays healthy and just focus with PSV this year . Btw j thought PSV was in the europa league this year , no?

        We really need malen and Stengs and the others coming in . This game we lost against Italy , but it’s a good game to lose . I’m sure we will bounce back for it next month

  4. I think our lack of creativity at midfeild is due to wijnaldum,he lacks the idea/the vision..i know everyone add De roon also but De roon job is pure destroyer.So he can be partially forgiven…
    We have nice prospects coming in koopmeiners and Gravenberch..can we add Eting????
    what making me piss off is that repeated slection of strootman,babel,veltman,hateboer,dumfries(he is somewat okay)..and playing Ake as LB,blind as LB,wijnaldum as right winger,
    Howmany chances these players get to IMPRESS….

    1. In today’s game, your midfielders need to be able to do everything. The old structure of playmaker/box-to-box/defensive is gone. De Roon in his role should be able to create. Look at Jorginho, Thiago, Frenkie…

      We need to use players like Propper, Ihatarren, Wijnaldum in the holding role with Frenkie.

      1. unfortunately Jan our coaches are not playing as u suggested.We are getting F#$$ked when it COUNTS..Wijnaldum-Strootman combo failed…I dont think Wijnaldum–Frenkie combo would be better than Gravenberch–Dejong or Propper–Dejong.
        i AM FED UP of coaches who gives repeated chance for Failed players at orange(Eg klassen,Veltman,hateboer,etc and partially failed ones like Dumfries,Babel,strootman,Fer,promes,luuk
        With players playing wrong spots..
        Blind as LB –He is LCB by ajax stanard
        Ake as LB—-He is excellent DM and CB..
        We need fresh blood to stand up against France,Belgium,Portugal…

  5. as Jan said, this was a reality check for us!!!

    anyway we should’ve seen the warning signs against Portugal in the final last year, do you guys remember how bad and inefficient we were against Portugal?

    funny that historically we struggle enormously against Italy and Portugal!!! but unfortunately the sad reality is that our attacking line and options are very mediocre at its best, all the options in attack are bad, even Memphis who stands out in the attacking group we have now wouldnt make it to the final 23 list of 1998-2000 with the presence of kluivert bergkamp makaay hasselbaink and overmars!!! we lack in a sad way in the attack and all we keep seeing is some very super talented central defenders look at schuurs, out of no where he pops and he seems to be another great central defender we got and by the way if the manager had the balls he should have started him ahead of veltman!!!

    speaking of “balls” I am starting to get concerned with these players thinking they are untouchable and irreplaceable now!! that story of a group of players (strootman-babel-van dijk-blind etc) deciding who is the next manager???? really???? of course someone like babel and strootman would want to pick a manager with a “peaceful” mentality would not want to challenge some of these players so he keeps them in the group at the expense of upcoming talents!!!! if strootman and Fer are 30 years old and they already showed their mediocre ceiling why are we keeping them taking away two spots from koopmeiners and some other young hungry midfielder (gravenberch). why not have these kids join now and show what they have instead of keeping names that everyone knows will never be essnetial in the team anymore?

    until last week i was against the idea of van gall just because his ego is too much, but you know what I think Van gaal is needed!! do you guys remember how he forced sneijder to lose weight and get back in shape or else he wouldnt call him to the world cup team? thats what we need a manager whop has the balls to bench wijnaldum when wijnaldum plays bad and let ihattaren in instead of him!! this way you keep these players more involved!!!

    1. Yes agree

      Sometimes I am sick of wijnaldum . Yes I know he scores and sometimes he is giving a great spirit to the team . but this guy takes day offs ! We don’t know when he has a happy day or a sad day !

      And I still am not sure if he is the best person to work with frenkie in the midfield . I really wanna see ihattaren. We have a few new lads who we can try in midfield . Few years later we also have xavi Simmons who may become one of a great Dutch players . Will see

  6. With Lodeweges at the helm we are headed for disaster. We won’t be winning this group so why not test and tweak but Lodeweges seems too inflexible for this. Get rid of him and Babel, Strootman too. Promes, Veltman are mediocre at best, Bergwijn is nothing special either. Even Wijnaldum and Depay are more than just ordinary players very often. And did you see the stats of the game? Possession was like 55-45 for Italy. We rarely lose the possession battle but we gave the ball away sooo many times yesterday. Oh, and did I say get rid of Lodeweges 🙂

    1. knvb is stubborn and lodeweges too..Some players get chance after chance and they fail us even to qualify…Exodus is required and it starts with lodeweges,veltman,babel,hateboer

      1. KNVB stubborn? I don’t see why you say this now? Lodeweges was key in the last Nations League we played. And now he is thrown in and is sticking to Koeman’s tactics and then people say he’s stubborn?

        1. Continuing with Danny blind??In the past.
          Denying cryuff chance in 1990..
          Ten gate was denied for advocate 2017?..These are due to stubbornness…Seems like they will never change..
          Koeman was good and he started with lots of changes,but later recently he become static with certain group of players.the portugal defeat should have opened his eyes..

          1. Ah ok. Stubborness overall in the past. It’s all about people, isn’t it. The KNVB is an empty vessel, a piece of paper. THe people usually fukc it up, but not just at KNVB. Governments, banks, companies, etc :-).

            But yes, the 1990 Cruyff debacle was stupid and for this reason, the KNVB will listen to the players this time. Lodeweges as interim was the result of Koeman leaving. The KNVB did not have another option. The Danny Blind choice was not a bad choice. I supported that and many did with me. In hindsight, it didn’t work, but at the time, Blind seemed like a good candidate. Ten Cate in 2017, purely Hans van Breukelen!

  7. before De roon Gini needs to be benched..We lost game with wing backs and midfeild(Gini and De roon)..Hateboer cross are jokes ,his first touch is pathetic..Ake is a splendid DM no business as LB…faster winger would trouble Ake more..

  8. midfield selection should be: frenkie, donny,ihattaren, gravenberch, koopmeiners and gini (gini for one more year only). we need to forget strootman, fer and de roon. (i thought we were done with fer a long time ago!!!)

  9. Young Oranje won Young Norway 2:0 in Euro qualifiers and ahead of Young Portugal by 12 points! They won six out of six their games. Today Boadu scored the second goal after missing three great chances. I am very content how AZ contingent performed in two Euro qualifiers (six goals out of nine), which gives hope ahead of CL qualification with Dinamo Kiev.

    1. Why is the game against dynamo being played away? Do u know AZ? Was it a draw or is it due to coefficient ranking ? And I also saw the winner will play in the play off against the winner from gent game? You thank AZ can make it ?

      1. @Alaa,

        Answering your questions:
        1,2. it is based on draw.
        3. Yes the winner of Dinamo- AZ will play against a winner of Ghent x Rapid.
        4. I do not really know. It is hard to predict. I hope AZ will make it. They play away games much better than home games.

        1. best of luck!! we need it for the Netherlands coefficient in Europe and also as a boost of confidence and experience for those guys (wijndal, koopmeiners, stengs, boadu and bizot).

          by the way do you live in alkmaar:)? so you usually watch them in the stadium?

          1. Oh No, I live in California, USA, and I am not Dutch by nationality or descent. I watch their game online through streaming.

  10. @ Jan
    “There was no time to test others… This is the first time they got together. There is no coach who would play 4 new players. No one would do this. Not Pep, not Conte, not Tuchel, no one.”

    I feel like banging my head on stone when hear comments like this.
    For starters none of them are coaching internationally and there was alot of debutants for other teams

    Ansu Fati,Erica Garcia,Oscar Rodriques- spain

    Robin Gosens- Germany.

    Conor Coady, Kalvin Phillips, Ainsley Maitland-Niles and Jack Grealish -England.

    And on top of this again and again Mancini made seven changes.

    When will KNVB and NT wake up.

    1. Don’t hit your head too hard. Well, then I am as guilty and stupid as all the other Dutch coaches. But I don’t know which new players you would have tested? Wijndal? That would have been a smack in Ake’s face. The guy never set one foot wrong in Oranje. I personally don’t like Veltman but many Dutch coaches do (De Boer, Bosz, Ten Hag, Koeman all used him).

      Remember the flak De Ligt and Blind received when Blind used De Ligt vs Bulgaria.

      I think it is completely defendable that Lodeweges went with the line up he went with.

      1. Ake should have started as DM…with Vrigiland shuurs as CB…Ake is LB when ur 2 left backs are injured in a tournament..make shift left back for 20 minutes to hold teh game..
        Ake desevrs to start as DM or CB..guy has quality..He could do much better than De roon.
        De ligt was 17 when we played WCQ…this is Nations league just second atch and Ake is 24..
        Lodeweges was coward to go defensive and we lost the game before whistle…i predicted it..
        Wijnaldum for Berjwin
        Ake for winjdal/De roon
        Hateboer for Gini/Promes/Dumfries.
        Veltman for shuurs….
        We lost the game due to his stupid slection and coward mind..Earlier the better we get rid of this guy…May be as an assistant he is good..
        I didnt like Danny blind as a coach but he was never coward,he has ideas but made some stupid decisions..

  11. The jong orange is flourishing with exceptional talents and the KNVB needs to sit down and instigate what should be the next move and how they want go about making the transition.

    Its best the Management who ever it will be forget about Nations league and use this platform to mould good team for euros. Regardless of whether they win or loss, with 4 games remaining, select 4 different teams. By the end of it alot of questions will be answered.

    I forgot to mention on top Mancini also gave Manuel Locatelli is debut vs NT and he plays sassulo in serie A.

    Players like Dilrosun, Veerman,koopmeiners,bakker, wijndal, bizot, bijlow have to make their debut in the remaining 4 games with boadu, Malen, stengs, karsdorp getting minutes as well. Like I said win or loss, this will fast tract the transition process.

    Go mad.

        1. Graveberch plays the same position as frenkie while both veerman and koopmeiners like to dictate play from the back. There will be alot clashes if you pair these guys with frenkie. The solution is to rotate and see which trio function the best. If frenkie falls out, so be it because the fact of matter is 3 brain better than one and more importantly will complement the the overall team better. This steps has to be taken so that towel doesn’t come out the frenkie gets injured. Can you think of anyone who can replace him today? Why? Answer this question.

          1. Rotating players is a big no no in the Netherlands. If F. de Jong performs at 20% of his capacity, he will still be part of the main selection.

        1. Wilson, I see that you have not changed one bit. You talk about the one game where PSV won during the pre-season but they were generally outplayed by Hertha Berlin despite winning convincingly. Then you talk about Reis who will never play. Can’t you see whether a player has what is needed to become a star? Probably not but that is another story.
          As for Koeman, he probably won’t last past the spring. He is a very mediocre coach and I don’t see him at all fitting in at Barca.

          1. They were outplayed but still won 4-0 with average backline and midfield. This is your statement. What is this suppose to mean.

            As for Reis, he is not a medicore player as what you trying to potray.


            The guy is optimistic and ike I said its just a matter of proving to koeman. Whether koeman stays or goes is another matter.Most probably pjnaic will be frenkie’s partner but you need back up as well. The option would be loan.

  12. sitting at work in the hospital, and then suddenly I remembered that with all the mediocrity oranje has in attack, knvb managed to let ziyech pick morocco!!! like seriously? are they that incompetent? the guy was there in the training camp with oranje so at that point he had made up his mind that he wanted oranje!!!

    1. If they were competent, we would have been in Euro and WC last 4 years. That is how they lost a Euro qualifier that allow two teams go through and third team got a playoff. If we have Ziyech, we would have been a very different team now.

  13. I am watching a fantastic Netflix show “The Borgias”. It shows what Popes do in Vatican. For some odd reason whenever I watch that show, KBVB comes to my mind…..

  14. Re: Italy match.

    What is the expression? Explanations are easy, the truth is always more complicated. Alot of factors went into the way the Dutch played in that game, and most have been set out in this thread’s discussions. My 2 cents:

    —Italy is a quality team. Skilled attacking players; the still rugged defense, and certain players who are just bulldogs out there.

    —Which leads into, if you play a team of that quality with 3/4 of regular backline missing, you do so at your own risk.

    —I think it was AZ who said above that the Italians got their tactics right. And I agree with that they sure did. Their ability to constantly isolate the right side of the NT’s defense and force 1 v. 1’s. Hateboer who played up the field against Poland was forced back, and De Roon was forced back all the time, with van de Beek playing up the field, the mf line was essentially fractured.

    —In the same vein, Wijnaldum didn’t really seem to come back to help defensively on the right as much as he could have. This may have had something to do with the set up.

    —The Italians marked De Jong out of the game for long periods. No matter how deep De Jong went to get the ball there was a guy harassing and blocking him. Often his only outlet seemed to be either De Roon coming from the deep position he had been forced into or Veltman, and the Italians were perfectly happy to let those two have as much possession as the NT wanted to give them.

    —Promes couldn’t penetrate, and Depay was lacking jump. He may have foreshadowed that in his Poland post match comments.

    —While the NT found some urgency in the least 20-25 minutes, and put Italy under pressure, and even though van de Beek should have scored, there is no hiding from this one. Italy was better on the night. If they learn the right lessons, add De ligt and Dumfries to the back into the defense, make some other changes—add Mallen to the attack, play someone next to Frenkie De Jong who who can play with some speed and skill (Wijnaldim, Ihatteren?), they can certainly win in Italy.

    Other comments: Dumfries was more effective than Hateboer at rb. I’d say that they missed Blind in the build up. De ligt will make a big difference in the defense. I’m now thinking Van Gaal is the best choice.

    1. I think there are other problems though:
      1. It is more of we got the wrong tactic than Italy got the right tactic. Ake as left back mean that left wing has no attack there since Promes will have no support. Without Bergwijn, right wing is dead also. So there is just middle where they can move the ball forward and it is so easy to defense against.

      2. We need a real coach. The coach has no game plan and there is no leadership in the team. Take Veltman as an example, he lost 4, 5 balls in a row trying to be creative with long pass. How was he allowed to do that? In a decent team, there is always hierarchy, if someone get mad and do their own thing like that, they will be subbed out immediately. When Koeman was the coach, this did not happen. The backline will pass the ball to De Jong or Blind so that they can move the ball forward. That is discipline.

      3. We don’t have new blood. Wilson said that many times. While I don’t think we need to go to the extreme of dropping lot of players, I think he has a point. Why are Veltman, Strootman and Babel selected? This is the time to try out new player, it is not Euro qualifier anymore. We have 4 good CBs, why did we need to try out Veltman? And we already know that he is not good. Blind is out and there is a big chance that he will be out next year, who will fill in his role? This is the opportunity to test other LB like Van Aanholt, Willems and Owen Wijndal. Instead we use this match to test Veltman as CB, lol. Strootman did not do anything for the NT last two years, why was he still there? Will Teun Koopmeiners or other younger players get their chance? Wijnaldum was out of form last two matches but Ihattaren did not get a single minute. Another Ziyech will happen if this keep going on.

    2. I agree with all you say, except for Van Gaal. People in HOlland (incl players) are really fed up with him and his egomaniacal antics. He recently published his 3rd biography, he was the guest in two evening filling tv shows about how amazing Louis is. And Memphis and Van Gaal are not a good mix. He will also bring his own staff, while the players were quite clear, they love working with Lodeweges, Lodewijks and Van der Looij and Stekelenburg… I hope Ten Cate gets it.

    3. @andrew

      Hope you dont mind me breaking down some of your points and throwing in some counter argumemts.

      1.italy is a quality team. How?

      Going back to the last time NT played Italy ( regardless of friendly). Only Jorginho and insigne were survivors with Bouncci and chisea who came of the bench in that game.The NT had 8 players who started including ake and promes who came of the bench.

      Question 1? So how did italy get better when they made seven changes and with only 3 players surving from the last game compared to NT who had 8 who having playing consistently, coupling and so forth.

      Italy also had no width on flanks. The left flank was dead from both sides. I cant remember Zainolo delivering any decisive balls which was on target from Akes side and yet there was plenty of criticism about his performance. Credit should be given where it due.and even when moise kean replaced zaniolo. Kean had one golden chance which came through the middle but he couldnt bury it.

      Insigne while on the side was very predictable and everybody knows when he plays he always cuts in from the the the flank so how did italy become a better team.

      They werent a better side, its just Mancini did his homework and why not when the tatics used by NT has been the same old for almost a year now with the same players. This is the same thing that happened in final vs portgual and I said it back then with tatical coaches it gonna crumble.

      The key was and would like to acknowledge kevin here was the midfield and to bring in Jorginho. He was brougt in neutralize NT build up from the middle. If lodeweges would have stick with the same lineup as the poland game, who knows it could have worked with Bergwijn providing better coverage to hateboer than wijnaldum and overall neutralizing the right flank. The game could have been different.

      “Blinds setup/buildup was missing” Against Poland I can imagine him venturing forward as they were very defensive. You yourself said depay was missing his jump so which build up you are talking about. His only strength, precise crosses would have being to no avail and this if only he would have gone around the the italian cover defense. Even promes could do this. The other thing why would u wanna continue investing in Blind when 1 he is not playing at fullback like Ake and 2. You have wijndal who is regular at LB is waiting to jump on the big stage.

      ” Van Gaal is the best choice for the next manager” if this really happens, he will defintely try to bring back and build the team again around robben, pull strings here and there to reach the knockout stages of the euros but after that it will all be back to square one, with start from scratch for the world cup 2022. I think its very important who ever the coach/ manager will be to use the euro platform to buildup for the world cup.94s, 98s,2000s.if this doesnt happen NT will never be able to catch up on other big teams and wil keep on dragging like what we are witnessing now. Van gaal is just like putting a bandage on a cut when it requires stitches.

  15. @Wilson, Of course, I don’t mind you breaking down my points and offering counter arguments. We’e just two people talking, exchanging points of view. But let me respond.

    “1.italy is a quality team. How?”

    Well, for one thing, I think that no matter what, Italy is a among a handful of nations in the world that will always filed a quality team in a competitive match. Monday’s team was no exception. Prior to their match against Bosnia, they had won 10 matches in a row. After defeating Netherlands, they have now won 11/12. That is a pretty good record. I stick by what I saw, a team with skilled attackers, a tough defense, and some hard men.
    I agree with you that Mancini’s tactics were better, but, too, there was an obvious place for them to attack. Who is to say there would have been a different result if De ligt, Dumfries and Blind had been in the back line, but the Italians would have had a more difficult time penetrating the right side, and De ligt and Blind would have offered the Dutch better options building out of the than just Frenkie De Jong trying to bring the ball out of the back.

    To that, I’m not sure I agree that Jorgino was as much of a key defensively as Borello, whose constant marking and harassment of De Jong appeared to me to the biggest block to the NT’s attack most of the night.

    btw, didn’t Kean come for Zaniolo because of an injury wasn’t he? If it was a tactical switch, credit to him.

    Agree with your point about Bergweijn. He works his tail off defensively.

    I’m good with replacing Blind (or anyone) if someone shows better. I was pointing out that not having him in the lineup hurt the team’s ability in the build up. (See comments re: De Jong not having outlets above.) But saying that Blind’s only strength on offense are his precise crosses is an overstatement, I think. He is very good at linking up play, and being part of multi-player moves, making passes on into areas that open things up for other players.

    I’m totally with you that the team that was on the field on Monday needs changes. Some will return from injuries, but there are other spots open if players can seize them. Those I can think of: Wijndal and Ihatteren. I would also like to see Koopmeiners, Stengs, Boadu, if their form holds up. Gravenberch if he has a big year. I would also like to see van Aanholt and Tete if he performs in the EPL. (I know you are big , fan of Veerman, and I take your word that he should be considered. I just haven’t seen him play.)

    Re: Van Gaal. I doubt he’ll see him build a team around Robben. He’d put it together according to his own vision (and, as with any coach, we’ll have to hope that his vision is one that works.) But he is not afraid to play young players. In 2014, he played, and got the most out of, a number of young players not well known on the world stage. (If I’m not wrong, 5/11 who started against Argentina came out of the Eredivisie.) That said, Jan’s comments aout how he is viewed in the Netherlands and by the current players is problematic.

      1. But for Blind I will still maintain with big teams he will offer nothing. Like vs portgual in the final. He only goes forward with average teams who play more defensively.its time to move on from him.

    1. If Koeman were still around, I think he would use Ake as CB, Van Aanholt as LB, Dumfries as RB to pair with Bergjwin because he believe in connection. Van de Beek in the midfield instead of Wijnaldum. He would have given some minutes to Ihattaren. That would make a decent team.

      Having said that, I am also disappointed that he picked Fer, Strootman and Babel in the provisional squad. I can’t imagine if we were losing an important game next Euro and any of these players will come in and make any impact. They are blocking the path of younger players to the national team for no reason. Then next WC, the younger generation will join the team and there is no connection with Depay, VVD or De Jong because they never play together.

  16. PSG lost their opening game of ligue 1 season without their big names. Bakker came on in the second closing stages of the second half while simoms was a unused sub.

    Bakker and wijndal needs to be injected in the NT asap.

    Read a article Dick Adovcaat has aforementioned Guilt to be the next coach. Any comments.

    1. Bakker is too early, he has lot of potential but he need like 10 games streak to be called up.

      I don’t feel there is any good Dutch coach around. Ten Hag and Bosz could be good but they are not available. I would look for Pochettino or Sarri. The Dutch football has regressed a lot in the last decade, they need to be open to new idea.

        1. Also the ten game streak will come for sure. Why not fast track things. He trains with the very best, will be playing at the highest level and as already hit the ground rolling at PSG.there is nothing to lose there. You see what im trying to say.on one side he will continue to be getting capped and eventually by the time he hits that 10 game streak at PSG he would already be regular in NT. The other thing to consider here is that PSG currently has three LBs, brenet no 1, with Kurzawa who can play both on right and left and plus bakker. It will defintely take him some time for bakker to hit that 10 game streak and most probably will intially have to settle for sub role of the bench as the season continues.

          The question arise you wanna wait or you invest in him given his potential and looking at his forcast.
          Its also fact athat KNVB including the Management have a history of falling to recognise
          Talents and giving them the break. They always wait until 1. There is injuries and no other option, 2. get humiliated in defeat and have to build from the scratch again like under danny Blind.

          Probably this is where the changes need to happen for the sake of the next generation talents who are queuing up now.

    2. Wilson, have you ever seen Bakker play? He is so bad and the absolute antithesis of a modern fullback. It is astounding that you keep throwing names for the sake of change! If Bakker ever plays for the national team, then hens will have teeth as the French expression goes.
      Bakker is the absolute worst defender Ajax ever produced just ahead of Dijks but not by much.

        1. This video is ridiculous mixing established talents such as Frenkie and others with some who have not even played in their respective top team such Simons.
          Anyway bottom line is that Bakker is indeed the worst defender Ajax has ever produced. He would have never played and is as I already stated the antithesis of a modern wingback. So forget about him. He won’t last long at PSG. You could say that Ajax has done well getting rid of Bakker, Botman and Marin all for fairly large fees. Good business given the mediocrity of these players.

      1. Well You must have read jeffs comment on “antithesis of a modern wingback”

        Buttner from vitesse days to being scouted by Man United was all about being offensively gifted and rugged in defensive as well. still when Van Gaal selected Blind over Buttner (Man United) in 2014 no body said that Blind lacks speed which was obviously his greatest weakness and even was exposed several times leading to WC. Instead van gaal aided him by pushing him futher up and slotting in extra defender.

        Now jeff has woken up after all these years and is singing the “antithesis of a modern wingback” tune, aimed at Bakker who still his 20 as mentioned.

        If van Gaal would have aided or given Buttner the same pereference like he did to depay and Blind, buttner would have gonna to become one of top left back by now. Buttner did struggle in the earlier stages, no doubt had some awful moments, howlers but then he showed he was improving until moyes got sacked and came in Van Gaal. Before his arrival he made it clear buttner was not part of his plans and later on went to sign Daley blind. I have posted many videos and articles on this.

        You look at the status of the LB position now.

        Buttner eventually signed for Dynamo Moscow and I think in the second season they were hit by financial crisis and from there it just got worse and worse for him. Dynamo moscow eventually got relegated after the depature of their big players, Eneded up not playing for almost two seasons, then went to Anderlecht, back to Vitesse and now is playing in US.

    1. No one knows. Ten Cate is being ignored. Rijkaard was asked, apparently and said no. Frank de Boer said he’s up for it. The KNVB will probably come up with a name in the coming weeks.

  17. The only italian I would ever consider for the NT would be Arrigo Sacchi. Gullit would be an interesting experiment that can go either way. Is Bergkamp coaching?

    1. I think Lammers signing is in wake of clubs queing up for Atalanta’s tailsman,Duvan Zapata whose price tag stands at 50-55 million. If Zapata
      Stays, it will back fire for Lammers as Atanlata also has Luis Muriel who is also a very good striker. Last season both zapata and muriel scored 30 goals between them.

  18. Groeveneld contonuing with his scoring streak and scored the winner for Bournemouth vs Blackburn Rovers.eventually winning 3-2. Can there be an ecception made for this guy aimed at NT call up.

    Frimgpo also played full 90′ for celtic. Easy 5-0 victory for them.

    In eredivisie, veerman off to a good start as well for heerenveen. First assist and won 2-0 vs Willem11.

    Unkown Pascal Struijk also started for Leeds united in 9 goal thriller vs liverpool. Unfortunate to loss to a last minute penatly. 5-4. Bielsa making a big statement in the opening round.

  19. Maybe Ihattaren came into camp over-weight? Heard that rumour but still sad he isn’t starting today for PSV!

    With that in mind I will be cheering for a familiar face – Arjen Robben. I am predicting him to yell at his teammates within the first 10 minutes


    I hope some of you don’t invest in the stock market. So much emotion in here and such a lack of patience.

    Are people actually suggesting not starting Wijnaldum or even crazier Frenkie?

    I certainly think the near future with Oranje is incredibly bright.

    De Ligt/VVD/De Vrij at CB.

    Wijnaldum, Frenkie, VDBeek and soon Ihattaren and Gravenberch.

    Depay looks so talented to me. He actually has tremendous vision. Good strength and a solid left foot. I don’t look Promes or Bergwijn types. They seem pushed out wide and then become limited in impact.

    I really hope Stengs has a great season. He can link up with players, clever movement ect. Malen Depay Stengs – Frenkie Wijn VDBeek – Ake VVD – De Ligt – Dumfries looks like a dangerous line up to me!

    Really hope Ihattaren and or Gravenberch become world class because that could really take us to the next level.

    1. Robben is injured again,he always had injury struggles it will be a waste of time and could end up as burden if he and Blind (Both due to health reason/injury) could spoil it…However i do agree Robben looks better than couple of players like Promes,Berjwin,Babel,luuk etc..

      1. Robben can be on one leg and still be better than Promes, Begwijn, Babbel combined. These guys are just ordinary players that you can find in every Premier league team reserve bench. Players like him are very rare nowadays. I will never forgive him for the clear chance missed in WC 2010 final I am lucky to have witnessed his many amazing runs for NT. He was a major factor that we went that far in 2010 and 2014. The more time goes by the more nostalgic I feel for him, Sneijder, Van Persie, Huntelaar or even Makaay and Hooijdonk.

  20. PSV have officially received a bid for Jorrit Hendrix. After signing Jeron Zoet,Serie A newcomers Spezia also want to sign hendrix.

    This could really open doors for PSV to possibly sign Veerman as his replacement.shall see.

  21. Hope and pray that Az alkmaar plays a nice game and beats Dynamo…its big task..
    when will get preliminary team gets selected for october nation league games???
    Lodeweges has pampered players very well,so it difficult to break that..Hope Serbia and Poland punish as we can get rid of him..He seems like worst that Bert…No chance for creative and efficient but inexperienced players..He sticks with experienced failed ones..i am not going to watch orange under him (however i will have a look in his selection hope he surpriese me).

  22. Timothy fosu mensah and Van de beek started vs aston villa for Manu and they lost 1-0…Fosu as RCB was nice,De beek was good as well…
    Since Defenders are pur strenth we need to go by 343 i feel..i mean play to our strength..
    on bench
    Winjdal—-koopmeiners–De beek—karsdorp
    No more Strootman,Fer,Babel,Veltman,hateboer,Dumfries,De roon please ..if u see them switch off tv and sleep..

    1. But, at least Strootman, De Roon, Hatoeber will play in the CL for their respective clubs. I am sure that they will be selected again. So, be ready to sleep well when the Dutch NT play next month.

  23. AZ out of the Champions League after losing 2-0 against Dynamo in Ukraine. Although I wanted them to win it kinda serves them right for trying to steal Ajax’s spot.

  24. Dinamo Kiev taught very hard lesson to AZ on what it takes to play in CL. Also, this game showed how much Boadu, Stengs, Wijndal, and Idrissi need to grow in order to make a difference at this level. I think this game was very sobering experience for entire AZ. However, I have no doubt that 2020-2021 season will be another successful year for my team. There are several reasons for that
    1. Koopmeiners will be soon released from the defensive obligations and return to midfield which will increase the attacking power of AZ. Currently, midfield is very weak: Clasie is absolutely useless and Midtsjø has not reached his peak. With Teun’s arrival we will get more creativity and power in midfield. With respect to defense, either Letchert or Hadzi (he is back from injury) will create a great tandem with Vlaar.
    2. AZ have had very slow start and preparation did not go the way it was planned due to injuries. However, even today I could clearly see that the team is getting back into shape. I would say it will take another 30-45 days before AZ will get full speed.

    However, thin bench still can cause a lot of problem to the team if main selection players get long-term absent.

    @Tomy14, I think AZ did right thing to argue a decision of KNVB, impotent and pro-Ajax organization. If they were in reverse position with Ajax, KNVB would have come up with the modified rules to award direct CL ticket to Ajax. AZ desperately needed CL money and they went until the end. The problem here is that AZ have the same ambition as Ajax but the financial foundation to support those ambitions are very unbalanced. And AZ tried to be creative. Although some people interpreted it as dishonest act.

    It is always to hard to swallow a defeat but it is what is and I am looking forward to AZ performance in EL and Eredivisie!

    1. As an Ajax fan i did not like what AZ did. I would have said the same thing if roles were reversed and AZ was leading the table in goal differential. I still felt bad for them getting eliminated since it would have been a good experience for the players playing in the national team.

      I think you exaggerate when you say KNVB is a pro Ajax organization…!

  25. @Tomy14
    Perhaps, I am too strong in my expressions towards KNVB as i am still very emotional after a bitter loss….It will take another couple of days to recover for me but it is not for the first time 🙂

  26. AZ-forever, I fully agree with Tomy14. What AZ did was utterly disingenuous and frankly dishonest. The rules are that the eredivisie crowns the winner on goal difference. Ajax lost it by one goal a few years back even though the head to head vs. PSV was in Ajax’s favor. So tough luck that is the way it is. AZ should have never attempted to “steal” the CL spot from Ajax. I loved the deadly silence from UEFA on that point like saying ” what the hell are you thinking?”
    As for today, better for AZ to be in the Europa League at least for the coefficient because they were dreadful against Kiev itself a very mediocre team.

  27. I have a hard feeling AZ will not be able maintain the strong hold which they had last season. They might provide a good competition, but Feyenoord,Ajax and PSV have prepared well this season in terms of new signings, team depth and re building.

    Nothing to be taken away from them though. There are focuing more on their academy players which is good and plus eventually when Stengs,Boadu, Koopmeiners do depature they will be in for jackpot.

  28. According to De Telegraph KNVB will hold talks with Frank De Boer to become the new manager. If this happens I will feel disgusted! How does anyone in their right mind want Frank as their coach!!! He gets fired from every club he managed and KNVB awards him! Shocking really and clearly shows that we will never reach the top.

    1. A bit harsh. For starters, he won 4 titles in a row with Ajax and wassn’t fired there. He didn’t get the support at Inter nor at Palace, where they signed him specifically to change their style of football. 4 games into the competition with zero points, the Palace board got wet feet. They got Woy Hodgkins in and he went back to old fashioned kick and rush. Not Frank’s fault. At Atlanta, he won trophies but at some stage it can be over with a coach and a team. Look at Jose Mourinho. Frank might be a great NT manager actually.

          1. He won’t be as bad a Blind because we have a few start at their peak. But he will manage successfully to waste the best years of V Dijk and maybe Frenkie, deLigt etc. They could not have a picked a worse choice. I am really thinking that KNVB is comprised of real retards. WTF

      1. Allow me to disagree on this one Jan! Being an Ajax fan i can honestly say that i don’t have the best memories with him as our coach. The football we played under De Boer was horrific in at least 90 percent of our games. Yes he won 4 Eredivisies but lets not forget who he won against, a Feyenoord in financial crisis and a PSV that had to be bailed out by the Eindhoven city council which saved them from bankruptcy while Ajax was financial in a much better situation and had the luxury to have players like Eriksen, Siem De Jong, Schone, Klaassen, Aldewireld, Vertonghen, Blind, Van der Wiel which was enough to make the difference.
        The domestic success was always covering his utterly humiliating performances in Europe where we became the laughing stock with eliminations from Steaua Bucuresti, Molde, Rapid Wien, Dnipro, Spartak Moskva, 6-1 loss on aggregate to Salzburg.

        As for his career it was nothing more than i expected simply because he is not good enough. Pointless to mention his awful time at Inter or Crystal Palace but even in MLS after his departure Atlantas fans were relieved he left their club.

        One last thing you probably haven’t heard about the genius mind of Frank was that Ajax at the time was seriously interested in Virgil Van Dijk and the mastermind that De Boer is convinced the club that Van Der Hoorn will be the next big thing and that is why Ajax acquired him from Utrecht instead of big Virg! We all know who became the next big thing, who became a player struggling to play in Championship and lastly, we know who ended up getting fired from every club he managed after Ajax.

        P.S. Bert Van Marwijk should have been our coach. This squad is suited for him!!

        1. Tomy14, you just jotted my memories on Van Der Hoorn. Thought he was the next big thing then, but ended up poorly.
          Also, rem Siem De Jong continued to be selected despite how limited he is when up against the Europe elites. FDJ would probably say there isn’t better option then..I don’t know.

  29. Very disappointed with frank de Boer as coach. 🙁Was expecting someone like LVG or Ten Cate.
    Ajax under FDB played ugly football. Just passing the ball around without threatening. A lot of passing back to GK. We will be champion if it is awarded to team with the most possession % in your own half. Wasn’t a tactically astute coach judging from how Ajax played as well as how he viewed/analysed the game back then.
    Now we can expect the like of Veltman and Babel to continue to stay around the NT.

  30. Frank de boer as the
    New Holland coach .

    So that means Virgil Van diijk at prime will be wasted for sure. Including a lot of talent will be wasted for the upcoming euros plus World Cup

    There is literally nothing that can make me feel confident with frank . Plus he simply hasn’t got the “look” and charisma of being a successful coach

    Jan I hope what you’re saying will become truth . Perhaps you are the only reason your words that makes me still have. 1% Of hope with de boer …………

    1. Not sure how to react on FdB appointment. However, when he was a coach of Ajax, the team played very boring but pragmatic football. They won four Eredivisie titles miserably failed in Europe. Honestly, I am not optimistic that NT with FdB will do anything remarkable. Again, this is another example of how “The Borgia family” (aka KNVB) works…..

  31. Here is a nice article which shows a comparative analysis of income that AZ could have gotten if they played in the CL. Perhaps after reading this you will understand why AZ tried to over thrown the annoying and arrogant Ajax from the CL. Unfortunately, CL’s money result in financial disparity within Eredivisie even stronger. That is why year by year Ajax and perhaps PSV will be the only two clubs winning Eredivisie title. For clubs like AZ and Utrecht this mission will become increasingly impossible….

    The elimination of AZ in the third heat of the Champions League against Dinamo Kiev is not a financial disaster for the Alkmaarders. But it does not alter the fact that the difference with participation in the Europa League is enormous. A doubling of the budget was in the offing for the number two of the last Eredivisie season.

    aZ had been assured of at least 26 million euros in income when qualified for the Champions League. This amount is based on the starting premium, which for all participants in the group phase is EUR 15.25 million. In addition, all clubs will receive an amount based on the UEFA club ranking, which is based on historical successes and the achievements of the past ten years.

    For AZ that would be an amount of at least eleven million euros. This is a conservative estimate, as not all participants for next season’s main tournament are known yet. This is based on the participation of Olympiakos Piraeus and Red Bull Salzburg, who have yet to qualify for champions via the preliminary round. Both clubs are higher on the UEFA club ranking than AZ.

    In that scenario, AZ would be number 23 on the list of CL participants when placed for the main tournament and therefore receive 11.08 million euros. Per place that a club rises, that amount increases by 1.108 million euros. Ajax is therefore assured of a higher amount, because it is a lot higher on that ranking thanks to the European successes and recent performances. Next season, Ajax will probably receive 19.9 million.

    Thanks to Bayern Munich’s Champions League win this year, the team from Amsterdam have been immediately placed for the group stage and are therefore assured of at least 35 million euros in income. For AZ, that amount would probably have been about nine million euros lower due to the lower premium from the coefficient pool, but 26 million euros is still a huge amount for the number two in the Eredivisie.

    AZ is still assured of income from European football due to the placement for the Europa League, but the amounts that can be earned in the second UEFA tournament are considerably lower. The starting premium at 2.9 million is more than five times as low as that in the Champions League and the coefficient bonus is at least 2.1 million (also a conservative estimate) in the case of AZ, five times as low.

    Champions League Europa League
    Starting premium € 15.25 million € 2.92 million
    Victory € 2.7 million € 0.57 million
    Draw € 0.9 million € 0.19 million
    Hibernate € 9.5 million € 1.0-1.5 million
    As a result, the difference in lost income is currently slightly more than twenty million euros for AZ. And although there is of course a greater chance that the team of trainer Arne Slot will achieve better results in the Europa League and thus grab more points for the UEFA coefficient list, financially it is different. Winning a CL duel yields 2.7 million, an EL victory only 0.57 million.

    In the most ideal scenario that AZ would win all its six group matches, around 3.4 million euros in match premiums would flow towards Alkmaar plus a bonus of one million euros for winning the group and five tons for reaching the knockout phase. That total amount of approximately five million euros has already been earned in the Champions League with two victories, good for 5.4 million euros.

    That the difference in income between the Champions League and the Europa League is enormous, is evident when we consider the (estimated) revenues of recent years. Despite two paltry points, PSV still had 28.9 million euros left over in the 2018/19 season. AZ is expected to receive around 8.5 million euros for the last Europa League season, in which it reached the last 32.

    That again comes down to a difference of about twenty million euros. And that amount would only increase if AZ also won matches in the Champions League. The last two seasons of Ajax prove how fast it can go. The historic 2018/19 season yielded the team from Amsterdam more than 78 million euros, based on last year, after the elimination in the group phase, some 45 million will also go to De Arena.
    These are gigantic amounts, especially with AZ’s budget in mind. This amounted to about 25 million euros in the 2018/19 financial year, when the club was missing from the Europa League. In such a year, the operational shortages quickly increase, as shown by the figures from the 2017/18 and 2018/19 seasons in the overview above. This year AZ is at least assured of that income, so that there is no immediate need to sell players.

    Nevertheless, placement for the Champions League would have been extremely welcome in the year that corona also left its mark in football country. The guaranteed income of at least 26 million would have doubled the budget for AZ. Only the transfer amounts that the club received for Guus Til, Alireza Jahanbakhsh and Vincent Janssen in recent years, come somewhat close to this (see table below).

    Player Year Club Amount
    Vincent Janssen 2016 Tottenham Hotspur 22 million
    Alireza Jahanbakhsh 2018 Brighton & Hove Albion 19 million
    Guus Til 2019 Spartak Moscow 18 million
    Wout Weghorst 2018 VfL Wolfsburg 10.5 million
    Due to these extremely lucrative sales, AZ has repeatedly managed to more than close the deficits and even make substantial profits in recent years, which has resulted in a nice financial buffer: more than 33 million after the close of the 2018/19 financial year. And then the transfer from Til has not been included. As a result, there is certainly no panic in Alkmaar, but the club’s earnings model based on transfers is indeed vulnerable.

    For the time being, the management is sticking to the position that despite the negative consequences of the corona crisis, AZ is not forced to sell one of its best players. All summer long there has been interest in Myron Boadu, Oussama Idrissi, Teun Koopmeiners, Calvin Stengs and Owen Wijndal, but it has not become concrete yet. However, the transfer market, which is now starting to get going, is still open until October 5.

    About two and a half weeks later, AZ’s European campaign will be continued, when the first round of the Europa League is scheduled for 22 October. It is not the tournament they had set their sights on in Alkmaar, but the income from the second UEFA competition is also very welcome. The years without European football show that. But the real silver fleet from Switzerland will not enter the AFAS Stadium this year either.

    1. AZ-forever, you are getting on my nerves with your depiction of Ajax as “annoying and arrogant”. Frankly it is AZ that was annoying and arrogant in thinking they could change the rules that are very well established. How dare they? It served them well to lose against Kiev. I am sorry but I do not appreciate your comments. Ajax won that money fair and square. To add to this, Ajax is also subsidizing a lot of the clubs in the Eredivisie and are single-handedly (almost) responsible for the Dutch coefficient to be where it is. So I would rather hear you say “thank you!” because without Ajax, AZ would have to go through more preliminary rounds to even make it into the EL. So count your blessings.

  32. Re. Frank dB as new Oranje coach, I choose to be cautiously optimistic. When he took over the job, Ronald Koeman was coming off of a disastrous spell at Everton. As Jan has noted here repeatedly, the job of NT coach is fundamentally different than that of club coach. Having had the experience of assisting Bert vM and playing for Oranje, he will be coming into the job with eyes open. And after some tough spells overseas I wouldn’t be surprised if being back on Dutch soil and at the heart of Dutch football culture (the culture in which he’s had the most success) rejuvenates and re-energizes him. I loved him as a player, and I’ll be rooting for him.

      1. Why not Gullit? I agree. I could even say why not Stam? Or Cocu? But KNVB is made up of a bunch a senile dicks. Maybe the cheap bastards think they’re saving money. FBD came probably for free. This feeling we have all experienced before, we will suck again. I would rather stay with Lodeweges who I didn’t think much of. FDB really isn’t cut to being a coach.

    1. He is a work in progress. There is alot of competition at that LB position in PSG. He just needs to keep improving and use every opportunity that comes along his way to show Tuchel he is capable of a starting in the starting 11. Brenet is offensively better than him and thats where he needs to strengthen. On the other hand bakkers is less injury prone than brenet and kurzawa and defensively is more balanced.

      He started vs mertz, the other day but didnt had a good game. He also needs to start making his own decsions now with Silva gone. He always used to shout at bakker checking on him everytime he was put a foot wrong. Not sure what the stances will be now with him gone.

      1. New out of PSG. Brenet is out for 6 months after his latest injury vs mertz.while kurzawa will miss the next 6 games after being sighted for the brawl that erupted vs Marseille game.

        Well the ball is in Bakker’s court now. He wouldn’t have asked anything more than this.

  33. Rick karsdorp is also withdrawn from any transfer offers including loan deals and is set to fight for a spot at Roma. Has been very active in the pre-season and has made good impression scoring goals as well. He looks to be back in form and with bruno Perez stuck in quarantine, could open doors for him to get back in contention.

  34. FDB….Is kind of suicide attempt by KNVB to spoil Virgil van dijk generation..
    1–Under him ajax was boring and full of back pass..
    2–He doesnt sign virgils and he sign Vanderhoon.
    Years ago at EC21 Isreal…De vrij was our RCB and we arere playing excellent vs italy..De vrij got injury and Van der hoon came in ….bang with in seconds we conceded a goal..sigining poorly skilled van der hooon over skilled Virgil (Virgil was not in top form i agree) makes him like fool..

      1. The KNVB met with De Boer this week and the former defender is now the man set to replace Ronald Koeman.

        However, De Boer must accept the KNVB’s demand that the backroom staff remains the same. Dwight Lodeweges, Patrick Lodewijks and Maarten Stekelenburg would remain assistants with Ruud van Nistelrooy also joining for Euro 2020.

        If De Boer accepts then he should be confirmed as the new Oranje boss in the near future. A second meeting with the KNVB is planned for next week.

        De Boer needs to be in charge for the friendly against Mexico on the 7th of October.

        1. Now that’s even worse. Forcing the new guy to work with a group of people he may not like. He should be given the chance to assemble his own team. It’s not bad enough to get a mediocre coach but you now risk alienating him and causing more damage. I hope he says NO but I am not holding my breath.

          1. Seems to me that the most probable reason for the demand is money. De Boer brings a new crew in, they not only have to pay the new staff, but they have to pay off the old staff to leave. I’m guessing funds are kind of tight because of the pandemic; they missed out on a couple of big gates with the Italy and Poland matches played with no fans. Nor do they have any of the funds that they would have anticipated from the EURO’s last summer.

            If this is the reason, and they explain it that way to De Boer, I could see him agreeing, if this really is his dream job.

            Any other reason—that they think they know best, for instance is ludicrous, and De Boer should walk away.

            What I don’t understand is how anyone with any sense would have let it get to this stage. This should have been resolved in the first go round. Now, it just makes everyone look bad: The KNVB looks like clownish intermeddlers, and De Boer is diminished, having has had his authority undercut.

    1. This is the reason why we dont win anything or bottle it in the end..Lodeweges is immensely negative and pragmatic like Bert van marwijk….We need at least Gullit or Ten gate..

  35. Ki Jana Hoever confirmed moving from Liverpool to Wolverhampton

    Ok I think That’s a smart move . What’s the point staying in the reserves team and wasting your talent
    Liverpool had many chances to play him when they were already definite to be champions last season . Thought Klopp didn’t let him play single minute ! Not even a single minute . On the other hand Virgil had to play all the games till the final minutes

    1. I like the move for Ki Jana. Wolves are a beautiful team with a fantastic coach. In my view top 3 team and coach in PL. I hope he gets playing time. It will be v good experience.

      1. Kenny Tete was good for Fulham.i saw him…Fosu and kenny looks miles ahead of Hateboer and Dumfries…Hope we resolve RB issue with Tete,Fosu and karsdorp..
        Donny was goog for Manu,this pogba is so complacent.

  36. Malen————Depay
    —Propper——-Van de beek—
    on bench
    Fer—No need for him
    Blind–Heart issue
    Hateboer—low quality b grade defender.
    Babel—-too old for orange.
    Weghorst—-Luuk is 10 min saviour..bad luck,better luck next time.
    De roon—We have propper,Vilhena,Wijnaldum,frenkie, we dont need him..

  37. What a shame this Frank de Boer news. He’s been an awful coach everywhere but Ajax, and Ajax results were a product of the rest of the leaguenot being good enough. This sucks.

  38. The year is 2022. Netherlands are in World cup final but they are getting tired. De Boer decide to sub Van Dijk out, who will replace him? Is that Ake, a starter at Manchester City or De Vrij, a stone in Inter defence? No, it is De Boer himself. In the 89 minute, he send a perfect long ball to Depay. Noone know that they had a secret practice session the day before. Depay has a silky touch to bring the ball down and shoot into the corner. The exact replication of Bergkamp goal in 1998. They win the World Cup the first time. De Boer win what his team could not win 24 years ago. With hard work and dedication, De Boer and KNVB prove that everyone is wrong about they judgement. De Boer will no longer be remembered as the worst coach of Premier League. He scream to the camera “you are the worst coach now, Mourinho”. The end.

  39. KNVB has appointed Frank de Boer as the new head coach. Oh darn it, that is a big disappointment to everyone, i believed.

    If KNVB is to just find a replacement on Ronald Koeman and doing thing without depth, it will be a failure!
    This new coach will be same as he do not have the depth as well.

    A successful coach must have everything: a tactician, motivator, leader, methodologist, psychologist

      1. We actually got no time to learn from the experience.

        So far we only won one European Cup and Zero World Cup.
        And everyone of us have been waited so long to hope for another trophy. But we look like fat Santa Claus now with long curly white beard and an unsexy beer tummy.

    1. It is on the dumb basis. For a long time, we finally have a good generation and their time will be wasted with coach like Danny Blind, Hiddink and FDB. Dutch football has fallen behind so much and this KNVB acted like some clowns for many years.

    1. Let’s be fair and let our Oranje fans and spectators to judge how Oranje performance in the Nation League 2020.
      If we are not even able to reach the semi final, Frank De Boer needs to have a good hot shower, pack the bag and leave the team.

  40. The appointment of FDB seems to be widely ridiculed. Seems KNVB appoints based on FDB as a player more than a coach.
    Disaster awaits. Next up is Klassen being selected to the final squad for the upcoming games.

  41. The decision has been made. Nothing to do now but keep an open mind, support the team, and hope that he does a good job. Its really the unknown. Coaching the NT is very different than a club team. Remember, Koeman was only available because things went bad at Everton, yet he did a fine job for the NT.

    1. KNVB want to replicate what Koeman has done at NT. After being sacked by Everton, he is successful at NT.

      The same spirit will be brought to the team by FdB: you may fail at club level, but not at the national team level.

      1. its all about ideology Bobotoh…
        Koeman was huge success at Suthampton,He assmbled a wonderul team with low budget..Got Virgil for just 13M and molded him to world class..koeman played direcet pressing football with vertical pass..
        While Deboer is naive and negative..he is master of back pass and parallel pass with no goals..Also he will drop malen for klassen or Virgil for Van der hoorn…thats the issue here…He can win NT i am sure,first he has to come out of deluded mind..stop beleiving in klassen,veltman,hateboer,Babel,De roon…also stop playing Blind(Health collapse in a game is on card)..Stop playing Ake as LB…We lost our games in wings…we need flying fullbacks and wingers….its the time for
        Jetro williams,Singkgraven,Winjadal at LB and karsdorp,Mensah,Dumfries,Tete for RB..
        Also Danjuma,Malen are indispencible for the team.

      2. There is a difference. Right before Everton, Koeman did a good job with Southampton. De Boer is so out of professional football for long time. He totally failed at Crystal Palace and then he joined the MLS and still not survive there. Even if he win anything in MLS, it does not mean anything actually. This is retired league.

        If any decent team like France, Germany, Portugal get a coach like this, their football association will be slaughtered by the fans and the press. For KNVB, this appear to be ok, why? Because they are already the laughing stock, no one care anymore.

  42. I really dont understand some of the comments above.koeman and De Boer comparison and etc.

    Koeman’s biggest upside when inheriting the Dutch team was the fact that van dijk, Frenkie and Depay were thriving big time at their respective clubs and he centred the team around them which at that time gave the team the precise balance and stability which the team needed after Blind era. On top of this he had good knowlwdge of epl players who were playing there at that time and with de ligt that made the NT. The tatical part, no doubt he is good at pulling the right strings. I have said this many times. The NT was at their absolute prime during last seasons Nation League but that has changed over the course of EC qualification and coming into the on going Nations league.

    this is what FDB is inheriting.A declining team which needs transition.nothing else.

    1. koeman was great for NT..brought new players ,molded Virgil at southampton..made him ducth captain..Gave chances to Danjuma,Dilrusen,Malen ,Boadu,stengs…koeman was fantastic…yes i do agree later he got stuck with strootman,veltman,hateboer,Blind as LB,ake as LB,De roon etc…there is comparison between deoboer and koeman..
      Koeman beat germany multiple times,beat france,beat portugal, he did thinsg many dutch coaches could even dream..
      All my pray is that De boer turns positive and never give chance for failed players strootman,veltman,klassen,hateboer, and oldie and done Babel..cardiac risk Blind..

  43. I liked FDB as a player. Once I got an autograph from him when Hol played USA in 2002 at Gillete Stadium in MA. But as a club coach he has proven to be terrible. I wouldn’t like him to coach my team, he is a guaranteed failure. And if I disliked him as a coach I can now say I am close to hating him. He is either a POS or a complete idiot. If he doesn’t know he is out of his depth then he is an idiot. But if he really thinks he is the right guy for this position he is an @hole. Is he really so full of sh!t about himself? A decent person with his coaching record would have refused to even be considered for the position but obviously he is not one.

    1. i saw the pathetic face of franc de beor after loosing 2 penalty..De boer is not the man for pressure but he was an excellent footballer…
      I think if he selecets and play strootman,Veltman,hatebore,Babel,De roon and plays Ake as LB…and great klassen he will be done in fraction of seconds…Everything starts with wrong player selection and u starts doing blunders from there..If he doesnt select those players i think he will have a nice time with NT..But selection of van der hoorn over Virgil says a lot..

  44. I think the harshness on the deBoer pick is a bit much here. He’s no idiot, I suspect (or at least hope) that he’ll be a great and highly successful Manager` for us.

    Not being a good fit in MLS is actually a positive attribute. It’s a weak league with substandard talent and very inconsistent teams. For someone who has had accomplishments at a high level, that’s never going to be a good fit. And he did actually have some success there, but I think that ran it’s course.

    Crystal Palace is a joke for the way they handled his time there. I’ve never seen that as anything more than the leadership of that club being a mess— there’s no way you could expect any Manager` to do anything much, positive or negative, in that time span. It obviously takes a while for a new style to take hold and you need the players to do it.

    As for his time at Ajax, the league might have been weak at the time, but so was Ajax. Playing conservative football with less than great players might have been exactly the right thing. The fact that he’s now managing in his own country/culture makes this different from his time in Italy, England, or the US. The fact that he’s now managing a group of very talented players makes this different from his time at Ajax.

  45. About eufa coefficient for last year:

    France 11.667
    Portugal 10.3
    Russia 4.667
    Belgium 7.6
    Ukraine 7.2
    Netherlands 9.4
    Turkey 5
    Austria 5.8
    Denmark 5.125
    Scotland 9.75

    also our teams didn’t do great job last year. but we r near russia and belgium now. i think if we do great this year. we can play with 2 teams in champion lleague for 2 years.

    1. also russia will lose 11.5 point this year and netherlands will lose just 5.5 points. so we r really near russia and belgium. let’s hope ajax and az and psv do great job this year.

Join the Conversation

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.